eBay Huckster
Member
In an ironic twist, you won't back up this statement.
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PoliGAF 2012 |OT3| If it's not a legitimate OT the mods have ways to shut it down
- Thread starter pigeon
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In an ironic twist, you won't back up this statement.
What would you like me to do? Quote individual posts?
Let me direct you to the last post that I quoted (sarcastically)
Gucci Messiah
Banned
lol here come the gif responses
It's honestly depressing that you think that's an answer.
So call them on it? This really does just strike me as a Kosmo post. I'm not asking for anything I don't regularly do myself, nor anything I don't regularly ask of people who make claims I don't believe. Do you have an example of such an undefended claim?
eBay Huckster
Member
Well, generally when you claim "left-wing GAF" is making fantastical statements they can't back up, you'll want to actually link to some of those fantastical statements.
Or, as you put it: footnote that shit.
Obama's 5 Trillion dollar claim is "false" only as long as Romney doesn't list the deductions he plans to implement.
Until Romney gets specific, it's a fair and truthful attack. You see, anyone can claim to solve all the world's problem just as long as you don't talk about the details.
IrishNinja
Member
i admit that pop-gaf is rubbing off on me, but i thought it fit the narrative you were selling back there pretty well
It's not even that I have an issue with these 'left-wing' people making undefended claims. The problem I have is the way that dissenting voices are treated here. And the fact that people have the gall to act as if their 'side' doesn't say similarly baseless shit all the time.
In the past few pages I have seen people claim: this was all part of Obama's plan; it's a giant media conspiracy; all the post-debate polls are skewed because they over-sample republicans etc. It's ridiculous. Have some perspective, guys.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
I agree with you man, I'm just trying to explain Romney's point of view. Not saying it is right, just pointing it out.
eBay Huckster
Member
So.. zero links, zero links, and what appears to be a reference to legitimate criticism of the CNN/ORC snap poll (given that it was the only poll to see more than one post discussing it).
Footnotes!
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Too bad I had rhetorical consistency or else that might have been applicable
I directed you to a post when you last quoted me... When I said 'the last post I quoted' I was referring to markatisu's post. I don't know how to link it directly (I'm kind of new here).
And why do I have to go through the past 10 pages and find those comments, anyway? You know full well that those arguments have been posted. This is a meaningless hurdle you are putting in front of me to avoid debating the real issue.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Instead of a passive aggressive gif that is not funny and provides no meaningful contribution whatsoever, why don't you use the keyboard and type some words? That is another trend that needs to go, reaction gifs. Lets have a civil discussion like mature citizens, not turn the thread into a crappy gif graveyard.
eBay Huckster
Member
See those numbers at the top-right of every post saying things like #18430? Those are permalinks; you can directly link to them using tags, [URL="http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=42847949&postcount=18430"]like so. (Quote this post to see the exact tag in case you aren't too familia...me starting in a few minutes to look at them.
el retorno
Member
WTF at the internals of the CNN who won the debate poll.
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/10/03/top12.pdf
Nobody outside the south, nobody under 50?
Ok TPM says this
Still I think it shows this poll is bogus and has a weird sample.
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/10/03/top12.pdf
Nobody outside the south, nobody under 50?
Ok TPM says this
Still I think it shows this poll is bogus and has a weird sample.
I checked the internals like you did last night and I had a hard time believing what I was seeing.
LOL
These "snap" polls and other polls that are rushed out within hours are pure garbage. There's absolutely no reason to take them seriously. If you guys are going to take these polls seriously, you should also take the text polls that Ed Schultz conducts on his show seriously or a poll on a conservative blog. They are statistically meaningless. These networks rush through them in order to have something to talk about.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
Apparently they weren't filtered out, just undersampled due to the small poll size. (According to CNN via Josh Marshall's twitter.)
Doesn't make the actual results much more useful, but doesn't imply anything nefarious, either.
The particular CNN poll in question has some of the weirdest crosstabs I've ever seen. It's not actually conspiracy theory to say that if your poll only includes results for old Southern people that there might be something strange about it.
The other two things are wild speculation, sure. But there's a pretty big difference between bizarre speculation and claims about information that is actually available and documented. I mean, I'm comfortable saying that whoever claimed that it was a giant media conspiracy is being mental (except, again, that since you didn't link to the post, I actually have no idea who it was or what the context was).
I don't agree with markatisu that it was an elaborate plan on Obama's to lose the debate -- that seems, uh, like needless multiplication. But what exactly do you expect? For me to post "provide immediate proof that Obama deliberately lost the debate?" Obviously such a claim is UNPROVABLE. That's why most of us just ignored it. I assume markatisu just posted it so that in two years when Game Changer 2 comes out he can link back to it if it turns out he was right.
But a claim like "Romney's tax plan is totally feasible despite all the studies we've been discussing for MONTHS that say it isn't?" That cries out for support.
edit:
Blergmeister
Member
Just throwing in my thoughts on only having watched half the debate...
I think that this went as well for Romney as one could have realistically expected. He was confident and confidence counts for far too much in these. I personally felt that Romneys typical response was "No, that's not what I'm doing, I'm not doing XYZ, that's not my plan", but then never went on to explain what his plan really was, only what it wasn't. I remarked to my wife (who is in the process of shaking her fathers Republican upbringing), that Romneys plan is "Everything that is good in Obamas plan, but without those bad things", sometimes even ommitting to say what the bad things are. "We will repeal Dodd Frank, but don't worry, we will keep the good parts!" That said, I don't know how much his negatives were noticed due to my own bias or if it was apparent for everyone to see.
Obama seemed good enough on his own, but felt more like he was just going through the motions. Obama never made any mistakes, it's just that his performance was flat decent all the way through, no real highs or lows.
Overall I think it was close, but not close enough to call it a tie, putting it in Romneys favor.
I think that this went as well for Romney as one could have realistically expected. He was confident and confidence counts for far too much in these. I personally felt that Romneys typical response was "No, that's not what I'm doing, I'm not doing XYZ, that's not my plan", but then never went on to explain what his plan really was, only what it wasn't. I remarked to my wife (who is in the process of shaking her fathers Republican upbringing), that Romneys plan is "Everything that is good in Obamas plan, but without those bad things", sometimes even ommitting to say what the bad things are. "We will repeal Dodd Frank, but don't worry, we will keep the good parts!" That said, I don't know how much his negatives were noticed due to my own bias or if it was apparent for everyone to see.
Obama seemed good enough on his own, but felt more like he was just going through the motions. Obama never made any mistakes, it's just that his performance was flat decent all the way through, no real highs or lows.
Overall I think it was close, but not close enough to call it a tie, putting it in Romneys favor.
The argument isn't with his point of view, it's that his point of view changes every other day. His plan was a 20% tax rate decrease across the board met with loop hole closures to pay for it so it didn't overly burden the middle class or raise the deficit. Fact checkers looked into that and saw that a 20% tax rate decrease is a lot of money and that it would be incredibly hard if not impossible to close enough loop holes to cover that amount. When called on it in the debates, Romney's plan changed to " we'll cut rates by some amount and close some loop holes." He became LESS specific, ran away from his plan since it is difficult, and in result Obama's attack completely failed since Romney stands for nothing and Obama resorted to the line of Romney's big tax plan being "nevermind", since he basically discarded it for 1.5 hours since it was difficult to defend.
That's why people assume you're a troll. Romney has a history of saying things for interviews and then quietly saying " nevermind, i didn't mean that" the next day if not earlier.
el retorno
Member
CNN is still going to run it as fact till the next debate. I wouldn't be surprised also if even Fox picks it up to show "look how amazing Romney is"
Black Republican
Member
obama gets his unemployment numbers today heh
ErasureAcer
Banned
Just in time for the nightly news.
Really the big thing last night was not just Romney's lies about his plans but when he did tell the truth his ideas were fucked up. If there was a deal to decrease spending by 10% and raise revenue by 1%...he wouldn't go for it. Meanwhile he has the audacity to lecture Obama about the deficit when Obama has the slowest % rate of growth of the deficit in forever.
el retorno
Member
I thought they come out friday. If they're good they can shift the debate.
My biggest problem with Obama last night is he lost the choice election narative. It seemed to revert to change (romney) v. more of the same (Obama). Which isn't good for Obama. Though I'm in no way gonna start to panic.
The first few debate polls will be fun in here with the freakouts when they move towards Romney.
RustyNails
Member
Here comes the backlash;
http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpoli...=tw&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpoli...=tw&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
First, I'm more offended you dare criticize that GIF. Second, as anyone on PoliGAF can attest, I'm always interested in an honest, mature debate. But when your retorts consist of "turn on the tv," you've surrendered the right to decry another poster for not contributing.
Or Pigeon's response.
If they're worse than August it's bad for Obama, better than 100k is good for Obama and will blunt some of Romney's "momentum".
Talking about the horse-race narrative here, not the actual election.
IrishNinja
Member
you said it was a realistic, proven plan, it just required common sense - then walked that back and said there were no details on it, so why should any be expected of you?
you got called on a complete lack of anything substantial, promised to read something you clearly didn't, and continued backpeddeling as fast as you could saying "lol comfy sheets" and the like...how is that in any way "rhetorically consistent"?
The Librarian
Banned
If it's a good jobs report, nobody will be talking about the debate after Friday.
On the other hand, if it's bad...
Half and half
Member
I think a bad jobs report on top of a perceived Obama debate loss can add up to at least a little bit of pain. When it rains it pours kind of thing.
A good news report can help nullify the effect of Obama's short coming last night. It would at least change some headlines.
A good news report can help nullify the effect of Obama's short coming last night. It would at least change some headlines.
RustyNails
Member
It "looks" like the jobs report hasn't affected the race, but it has. It's in the positive direction, and it helps Obama make his case every day. If it falters, Obama is going away with it. The jobs numbers are the most important indicator of the state of the country. It's frankly the only reason why Obama is soundly winning the swing states.
el retorno
Member
Obama is in positive territory in job creation now isn't he?
Basileus777
Member
Most undecided or swing voters will never even hear about the jobs report. It's just something for people who follow politics or watch cable news to digest.
No single report has affected the race, but they have followed a trend of modest growth for two years. If tomorrow's report diverges significantly, the effect could be more pronounced. Certainly, I prefer not to risk a decline in employment.
Not quite the only reason. Obama's campaign infrastructure is a decided advantage.
Yes, but 100,000 or so.
Not bad considering when he walked through the door the economy was shedding 500-700k jobs a month.
"Soon"? Still? Still we're giving him the benefit of the doubt on this? If he wanted to land any kind of truly decisive blow against Obama last night, that would have been a great time to actually start filling in his policy details. That is of course if they're so great and quantifiably better than Obama's policies.
Instead, the fallout from last night's debate is going to play out with Romney being chided for his baseless claims and lies, while the Obama campaign chooses some of his newest flip flops from last night's debate to spotlight in their next set of campaign ads.
But, yeah, "soon". Just not last night, probably not today, or even this week, but "soon".
I'm fine this morning. Didn't watch any news but did listen NPR a little on the way into work. Here's how I see it. Obama didn't go for openings that were presented but he didn't make any mistakes or do anything wrong. He presented his side of things. I think that's what he went there to do. He did call Romney out on a number of things but he can only do so much when Romney just replies "No I won't". This is why what happens after the debate in ads is what matters. It's easier to show Romney's lies. That is what he did during the debate. He lied his ass off. This would have been called out more but the moderator was beyond horrible. Romney talked a lot, made promises but he didn't say anything of substance. What he did do was seemingly present himself better (but I question that as he appeared frantic at certain points) but that was it. Since Romney presented himself better and Obama didn't go on the offensive the way people wanted and expected (never mind that isn't his style and he never does that) Romney "won" the debate.
Obama's first ad after the debate though is what I want to see. Showing Romney's lies. When the media talks about Obama losing they'll talk about why. He didn't bring up the 47%, Bain, etc and then they'll fact check and expose Romney's lies. Fact checking has already started by most news websites have up this morning.
If you've made up your mind what happen last night isn't going to change it since you know where both stand on topics or you dislike one over the other. Nothing happen to change that. If you were undecided at this point then you need to get your damn head checked. You've had more then enough time to find out and know the differences between the two. Also if you make your decisions based on what is said just because it sounded good without checking if what was said was true.
What would make me feel even better though if from now and until the election all Obama did was point out how much of a liar Romney is. It's not at attack but a character description. Just show video after video of him lying. That's what is really pissing me off about this election. I don't differences or even republicans having policies that favor the rich. Is the fucking lying over and over again and Romney getting away with it that pisses me off.
el retorno
Member
Still. "Are you better of now than you were 4 years ago?"
cartoon_soldier
Member
I was right that Romney would just completely lie in the debates (and elsewhere) to win this election. The story still in Media is that he won or pivoted to the center...let us see if the Media can do their job this time.
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