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PoliGAF 2012 |OT3| If it's not a legitimate OT the mods have ways to shut it down

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Not open for further replies.
C

ClassyPenguin

Banned
Pre said:
Yes, I was speaking abstractly. EV seems to believe that the government must step in to create demand since capital is being hoarded. I disagree but went into the weeds a bit.
Click to expand...

That's what's happening isn't it? That's why there is slow growth.

Also, as someone who has family in Spain and pays attention to the Euro-zone Crisis, Romney's comments just pissed me off. It's just a cheap scare tactic for the "OMG Socialism!" crowd.
 
O

Officerrob

Banned
Measley said:
Honestly, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Ohio need to be taken off the toss-up list.
Click to expand...

What's funny is that Obama is closer to winning Missouri on RCP's average of polls compared to Romney is in Wisconsin, New Hampshire, and Ohio yet most news outlets have those final three as toss-ups while Missouri leans Romney
 
T

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
Are you all beginning to see why Romney lost the debate last night? Lost as in the impact on the election, not 10 minutes after the debate?

Abandoning your platform to attack from the center doesn't work without details and constant contradiction. That play is used up...what is Romney going to do between now and the election? Go birther?
 
T

thatbox

Banned
The ghost of Manos would be happy to know that I went to the zoning board meeting at the parish courthouse tonight about my gun-dealing neighbor's request. Thinking of you, buddy.
 
R

RDreamer

Member
Pre said:
Yes, I was speaking abstractly. EV seems to believe that the government must step in to create demand since capital is being hoarded. I disagree but went into the weeds a bit.
Click to expand...

I do hope you realize that if you truly, truly believe this that you're close to being on an island by yourself in that belief. Even Mitt Romney himself believes that government should step in, as he's admitted that cutting government funding (in the case of the military) would mean less jobs and a slower growth (weaponized Keynesianism!). Stimulus isn't really a debatable thing anymore and it really shouldn't be. The fact that it has turned into one is kind of appalling, since, as I've pointed out, even the Republican candidate believes that's how it works, he just isn't saying it as loud.
 
empty vessel

empty vessel

Member
Pre said:
Yes, I was speaking abstractly. EV seems to believe that the government must step in to create demand since capital is being hoarded. I disagree but went into the weeds a bit.
Click to expand...

I don't think government needs to "step in" because capital is being hoarded. I think government needs to spend (1) because aggregate demand is depressed (for myriad reasons, chief of which is the financial crisis and upside down balance sheets of both homes and businesses that restricts the money they have available for purchasing goods and services), (2) because government spending is the only source of money that is not credit (the precursor to the financial crisis and not the optimal method for economic growth), (3) because net government spending (budget deficits) is how money is injected into the economy, and (4) because injecting more money increases demand for goods and services. As the sole supplier of base money--the grease by which goods and services get exchanged--government is always "in" the economy so it can never "step" in. It is either adequately supplying the private economy with the amount of money needed to optimally create and exchange wealth at any given time or it is not. If it is not, it can either be supplying too little (credit bubble, deflation, recession) or too much (demand pull inflation).

The irony is that this is at base the same logic as you are using for providing tax cuts--I also support tax cuts on workers in the form of repealing the payroll tax--i.e., that more money should be available in the economy. But leaving money with high income earners (however that money is made) will not do the trick, because while the problem may be that nobody wants to invest, the reason they do not want to invest isn't because taxes on the money they make from that investment are too high, but because they may not make any money in the first place since the rest of the country is too cash strapped to spend on the goods and services their investment will produce and which they seek to sell. As people stop spending, businesses cut back on production to match the drop in demand. Increases in unemployment and idle capital result.

Regarding "hoarding," specifically, any kind of savings by the private sector is a form of demand leakage--i.e., money being saved is not being spent in the economy--that the government must accommodate through additional spending. This is one reason Japan's government has had to run such high deficits, because the Japanese have had a high rate of savings.
 
J

Joe Shlabotnik

Banned
Effect said:
Was this posted already. From Ipsos/Reuters. Polling post-debate.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/...bate-with-Republicans-Obama-with-independents
http://www.ipsos-na.com/download/pr.aspx?id=12047

The picture of today's rally makes me feel pretty good. It does confirm what I felt. That debate did not turn you against the president or for Romney if you had already made up your mind about both candidates. Enough already have at this point. That doesn't mean he can blow the next one but things aren't doom and gloom. Though that some are feeling this way is enough to remind Obama's camp that they have to keep going full steam.

However those that are really worried I hope you take that energy and put it to good use. You know what you were support Obama. Redouble your efforts and make sure others actually vote as well.
Click to expand...

Greg Sargent (via Twitter, via TPM) is now saying that the actual change in the day before and day following the debate in the Reuters poll is 1 point (47-41 / 48-43). The pre-debate numbers showing 48-39 Obama are an average of the three days leading up to the debate and not just the day before.
 
S

Snake

Member
Effect said:
Was this posted already. From Ipsos/Reuters. Polling post-debate.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/...bate-with-Republicans-Obama-with-independents
http://www.ipsos-na.com/download/pr.aspx?id=12047

The picture of today's rally makes me feel pretty good. It does confirm what I felt. That debate did not turn you against the president or for Romney if you had already made up your mind about both candidates. Enough already have at this point. That doesn't mean he can blow the next one but things aren't doom and gloom. Though that some are feeling this way is enough to remind Obama's camp that they have to keep going full steam.

However those that are really worried I hope you take that energy and put it to good use. You know what you were support Obama. Redouble your efforts and make sure others actually vote as well.
Click to expand...

I don't get those favorability numbers. Obama makes big gains with Independents and doesn't really lose anything, and his numbers are unchanged overall. Meanwhile Romney's numbers move +5 overall without any gain from indies, and a moderate gain among Republicans.
 
P

Pre

Member
scorcho said:
Well, a lot of us do here, myself included. Many corporations have been sitting on massive profits while demanding demanding greater efficiencies from their existing labor force. Few are hiring in large numbers or reinvesting and are content to build their cash chest and amass it overseas while waiting for another corporate tax holiday to bring it home and hoard.

It's absolutely the government's role to step in and spur investment where there isn't. Feel free to answer EV's questions when you can, too. I'm interested to see your responses.
Click to expand...

Then how do you propose increasing private investment? If we are to believe Keynes, government expenditures is only one part of aggregate demand. Supposedly we need both along with high consumption to stimulate the economy.

I'll keep the page bookmarked and answer sometime soon.
 
M

markatisu

Member
speculawyer said:
Damn . . . you are right:
http://www.270towin.com/2012_election_predictions.php?mapid=Eoi

But I think Iowa is still toss-up. Wisconsin & Ohio seem pretty solid though.
Click to expand...

Its not, if you live here you know its not. One of the reasons Obama will win is they are voting to retain or remove one of the judges that approved Gay Marriage. In the 2010 midterms they removed 3 and it caused outrage across the state (well what do you expect when you opt not to vote) so the left and the middle are wanting to rectify that injustice and retain the last judge.

That vote alone is going to mobilize more Obama votes, and Iowa just flat out does not like Romney. There is a reason Santorum beat him here
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Pre said:
Then how do you propose increasing private investment?
Click to expand...

The classic method of doing so is inflation. The currently ahistorically low rate of inflation is, in fact, probably sufficient explanation for why private investment is so sluggish today.
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
Effect said:
Was this posted already. From Ipsos/Reuters. Polling post-debate.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/...bate-with-Republicans-Obama-with-independents
http://www.ipsos-na.com/download/pr.aspx?id=12047

The picture of today's rally makes me feel pretty good. It does confirm what I felt. That debate did not turn you against the president or for Romney if you had already made up your mind about both candidates. Enough already have at this point. That doesn't mean he can blow the next one but things aren't doom and gloom. Though that some are feeling this way is enough to remind Obama's camp that they have to keep going full steam.

However those that are really worried I hope you take that energy and put it to good use. You know what you were support Obama. Redouble your efforts and make sure others actually vote as well.
Click to expand...
Because PD's ignoring this, so will I.
 
E

eBay Huckster

Member
Snake said:
I don't get those favorability numbers. Obama makes big gains with Independents and doesn't really lose anything, and his numbers are unchanged overall. Meanwhile Romney's numbers move +5 overall without any gain from indies, and a moderate gain among Republicans.
Click to expand...

Less Dems in the sample and presumably somewhat more Republicans
 
T

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
Pre said:
Then how do you propose increasing private investment? If we are to believe Keynes, government expenditures is only one part of aggregate demand. Supposedly we need both along with high consumption to stimulate the economy.

I'll keep the page bookmarked and answer sometime soon.
Click to expand...

3-4% inflation
Reenact Glass-Steagall
Keep federal rates low until things are solid
End war in Afghanistan, spend money on science and infrastructure locally (automated vehicles, GB/s internet, fusion)

And anything else to target hoarding. It's really annoying how the economy is ready to flourish but everyone is hoarding.
 
F

Forever

Banned
Anyone just watch Maddow's segment on the historical record of incumbent presidents taking on a challenger in the first debate? The only president who ever won it was Clinton.
 
B

Brannon

Member
markatisu said:
Wow man those debates really made Obama's day hard lol

548253_10151194151741749_500001423_n.jpg
Click to expand...

teh_pwn said:
Are you all beginning to see why Romney lost the debate last night? Lost as in the impact on the election, not 10 minutes after the debate?

Abandoning your platform to attack from the center doesn't work without details and constant contradiction. That play is used up...what is Romney going to do between now and the election? Go birther?
Click to expand...

Damn near a repeat of 2008.

NOOOO OBAMA SUCKS WE'RE GOING TO LO... wait, nothing really changed much.

Fucking clockwork. Also, I hope Snuffleupagus stubs Romney's little toe in the middle of the night.
 
L

Loudninja

Member
U.S. authorities charge 91 in $430 million Medicare fraud
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Ninety-one people including doctors, nurses and other medical professionals were charged criminally in a new sweep of Medicare fraud involving seven U.S. cities and $430 million in alleged false billing, officials said on Thursday.

It was the government's second big raid in recent months after a similar effort in May alleged $452 million in fraud in Medicare, the U.S. health program for the elderly and disabled.
The allegations include billing the government for unnecessary ambulance rides in California, writing prescriptions for patients in Dallas who did not qualify for them and paying kickbacks such as food and cigarettes to patients in Houston if they attended programs a hospital could later bill for.

The investigation is part of an effort by President Barack Obama's administration to find healthcare savings, an issue that also flared during Wednesday's debate between Obama and his Republican challenger, Mitt Romney.

Medicare, a $590 billion program that serves nearly 50 million people, is a primary pot of money for trying to find waste, fraud and abuse.
Indictments against the 91 defendants were unsealed on Thursday after a coordinated investigation led by the U.S. departments of Justice and of Health and Human Services, officials said. Most of the 91 surrendered or were arrested.

Those charged were relatively small-time operators who officials said tried to make a living defrauding Medicare and its sibling program, Medicaid, which insures the poor.
Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said at a news conference that the sweep should "send a clear message to those perpetrating or contemplating Medicare and Medicaid fraud: It's time to start looking for another line of work."

The examples of fraud "drive up healthcare costs and jeopardize the strength of the Medicare program," said Attorney General Eric Holder, head of the Justice Department.
Click to expand...
http://news.yahoo.com/authorities-charge-91-430-million-medicare-fraud-173905068.html
 
M

markatisu

Member
Basileus777 said:
It's pretty amusing how despite all of this hair-pulling, this will go down in history and be remember solely as the Big Bird debate.
Click to expand...

Yup and there is your key moment, just its not a positive one for Romney

HW Bush had the watch look
Gore had the sighs
McCain had "that one"
Reagan had "Are you better off then you were 4 years ago" (though that was good for him)

Romney has firing Big Bird
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Effect said:
Was this posted already. From Ipsos/Reuters. Polling post-debate.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/...bate-with-Republicans-Obama-with-independents
http://www.ipsos-na.com/download/pr.aspx?id=12047

The picture of today's rally makes me feel pretty good. It does confirm what I felt. That debate did not turn you against the president or for Romney if you had already made up your mind about both candidates. Enough already have at this point. That doesn't mean he can blow the next one but things aren't doom and gloom. Though that some are feeling this way is enough to remind Obama's camp that they have to keep going full steam.

However those that are really worried I hope you take that energy and put it to good use. You know what you were support Obama. Redouble your efforts and make sure others actually vote as well.
Click to expand...

LOL

I truly believe that Romney being a jerk to the moderator will have a far greater negative effect than his debate performance will have a positive effect.
 
T

Trurl

Banned
I suppose that I'm happy that the big bird is becoming a defining moment (perhaps the defining moment) of the debate since it helps my side, and I certainly support funding public television, but it bothers me a bit that it's being framed as Big Bird being at risk. If anything on TV is safe it's Sesame Street regardless of the fate of PBS's funding. Big Bird has more to fear from Elmo than a total GOP takeover of the federal government.
 
M

markatisu

Member
Trurl said:
I suppose that I'm happy that the big bird is becoming a defining moment (perhaps the defining moment) of the debate since it helps my side, and I certainly support funding public television, but it bothers me a bit that it's being framed as Big Bird being at risk. If anything on TV is safe it's Sesame Street regardless of the fate of PBS's funding. Big Bird has more to fear from Elmo than a total GOP takeover of the federal government.
Click to expand...

Yeah but at the same time PBS is highly dependent on Sesame Street to bring in contributions for support. Sesame Street on the simplest level is the main example of what PBS wants to accomplish with learning television.

You kill PBS and you might as well kill Big Bird because its impact on say the Disney Channel would not be as profound
 
N

NullPointer

Member
markatisu said:
Yeah but at the same time PBS is highly dependent on Sesame Street to bring in contributions for support. Sesame Street on the simplest level is the main example of what PBS wants to accomplish with learning television.

You kill PBS and you might as well kill Big Bird because its impact on say the Disney Channel would not be as profound
Click to expand...
The private market will fill the void.

i7I4RaDfxvPNa.jpg
 
O

onipex

Member
markatisu said:
Yup and there is your key moment, just its not a positive one for Romney

HW Bush had the watch look
Gore had the sighs
McCain had "that one"
Reagan had "Are you better off then you were 4 years ago" (though that was good for him)

Romney has firing Big Bird
Click to expand...


Obama will get a Big Bird bounce.
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
this has been a fun two days. Worst year for car accidents ever for me. I got in a car accident on the day I went to see Dark Knight Rises; and today I got in another when a deer leaped in front of my vehicle. Car flipped, is totaled, and one of my ears is, like, half gone. So this was fun!

God I can't wait til this year is over -_-
 
L

Loudninja

Member
Amir0x said:
this has been a fun two days. Worst year for car accidents ever for me. I got in a car accident on the day I went to see Dark Knight Rises; and today I got in another when a deer leaped in front of my vehicle. Car flipped, is totaled, and one of my ears is, like, half gone. So this was fun!

God I can't wait til this year is over -_-
Click to expand...
Ah man,sorry to hear that.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
Amir0x said:
this has been a fun two days. Worst year for car accidents ever for me. I got in a car accident on the day I went to see Dark Knight Rises; and today I got in another when a deer leaped in front of my vehicle. Car flipped, is totaled, and one of my ears is, like, half gone. So this was fun!

God I can't wait til this year is over -_-
Click to expand...

What the heck happened to your ear? Oh my goodness man, That's scary shit.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Amir0x said:
this has been a fun two days. Worst year for car accidents ever for me. I got in a car accident on the day I went to see Dark Knight Rises; and today I got in another when a deer leaped in front of my vehicle. Car flipped, is totaled, and one of my ears is, like, half gone. So this was fun!

God I can't wait til this year is over -_-
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that, man. Fucking deer. My mother-in-law has some funny/terrifying stories about car accidents with deer. Hope you heal up okay.
 
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