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PoliGAF 2013 |OT2| Worth 77% of OT1

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Opiate

Member
Anyone have a place with news archives? I was asked for examples of Republicans refusing to compromise and was able to come up with a few but would love to rattle off dozens of examples.

That's a damn good idea for a website though. Would love something like that as I could throw it in certain people's faces. I had someone actually say its the Democrats, not Republicans that refuse to compromise...

Have I got one for you.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/317179-tea-party-groups-tell-alexander-to-quit

Tea Party Republicans threaten to primary Sen. Lamar Alexander for not being conservative enough. From the article:

Unfortunately, our great nation can no longer afford compromise and bipartisanship, two traits for which you have become famous,”

That is a direct quote.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
I was a bit conflicted when I first started hearing talk about the RNC boycotting any non-Fox News outlet, but with the news of the possibility of El Rushbo, or The Donald moderating the debates, I'm now firmly in the "full speed ahead!" camp.

Reince is goddamned idiot. If he wants to protect the Republican nominees, then the smartest thing he could possibly do is cancel the debates, period.
 
The cancellation won't hide anything. I'm more interested in how this will impact the fall presidential debates, if at all. IE if someone from CNN or NBC is chosen as a moderator, will the republican candidate refuse to show up?
 
Yes yes, we get it. You repeat this a billion times. Like, I get and I actually agree with you. You don't need to keep re-stating your position in this thread to people who know it, and again, agree.

But I'm not going to be long-winded when discussing deficits over semantics when everyone here already understands this point. Since the discussion is centered around the idea of the destruction of money through SS payroll tax being less than the money being created to spend on SS, for all intents and purposes we can keep it short and say SS taxes fall short of funding. Okay?

Let us all agree we agree with your argument, truly do, but move on so that every damn time someone brings up taxes and outlays you don't have to chime in with this point of fact. It's really annoying.

And money isn't an accounting gimmick. As you state, it's a unit of account. It's intention isn't to deceive or trick anyone. It's just a more convenient way of trading than barter. Accounting gimmicks are deceptions, sleight of hands. They are created to make someone think something else is happening. This isn't what money is.

First, I won't stop pointing out that the way people talk about the government's fiscal operations is incorrect, because the mischaracterization adopts a conservative, gold-standard type thinking that is destructive. Talking about the government like this has got us exactly where we are today.

Second, you should read up on the history of money, if you have any interest. It doesn't exist because it is a more convenient way of trading than barter. It exists to move real goods and services from the private sphere to the government. Money as we know it exists because the government needs a mechanism other than the direct application of brute force to procure goods and labor from individuals and put those resources to public ends. So the government creates money in tandem with an obligation to pay taxes in that money. The obligation to pay taxes drives the demand for the money, which in turn allows the government to "purchase" real goods and services with its otherwise worthless money. You can read about the history of money here, which includes historical examples of the introduction of money into societies by governments.
 

Diablos

Member
Jim Demint is now running ads against McConnell. Whoo boy.
LOL. Cry moar turtle face.

CNN will probably pull themselves from the Democratic debates to keep things balanced.
You really think so? I doubt it.

I can't see how this does any good. Perhaps they are playing a long game and hoping to hold PRESIDENTIAL debate hosts hostage and crying foul if anyone does anything that they don't like (which is basically anything that allows them to meet their goal on time), thus trying to force whoever the Democratic nominee is to have three debates with extremely conservative hosts. This could be just the beginning. Think: In 2015, CNN talks positively of an ad being run for Hillary while ripping on the GOP's comeback. The party throws a fit and votes to not have any CNN hosts do a Presidential debate. Then, NBC does the same and so they go after them as well, etc. etc. They keep doing this until it's nothing but GOP-friendly moderators.

Megyn Kelly, Bill O'Reilly and Bill Kristol host the three Presidential debates! You know it is their wet dream.

The safe argument is that it just shields the public from the far-right loons in the primaries. But GOPers are probably playing a very long game here.

The cancellation won't hide anything. I'm more interested in how this will impact the fall presidential debates, if at all. IE if someone from CNN or NBC is chosen as a moderator, will the republican candidate refuse to show up?
No, this is just the beginning. They are clearly trying to change the optics by making people warm up to a pro-GOP debate format going into the general. It's a weak-handed way to admit they have an image problem but don't give a fuck for the best of their warped ideology and potentially cheating their way through Presidential debates by having biased moderators. That has to be the goal.

Not really, he's just a modern day sex addict. At least you get to see him for who he is. Who even wants to know how many Washington-bred politicians do this and never get caught.
 
Delicious.
QUESTIONER: What happens to us when Obamacare is repealed? What happens to people with pre-existing conditions that can’t get health care? What happens to those of us who finally have access to health insurance for the first time in nine or ten years? What happens to us? And you want to make this local, I’ll make this local. I’m a constituent, right now I can’t get health care. I’m waiting for this [insurance marketplace] to open and I’d like to know why we keep repealing [Obamacare]?
 

Diablos

Member
My only hope that these tactics are the death cry of GOPers as we've come to know them, and not something that will actually carry them into the next two or three decades. Because, if not, holy fuck.
 

Tamanon

Banned
I don't understand, how did it escalate from "If you do this, we'll boycott you" to "Well, we're boycotting you anyway".

RNC is run by morons.
 

Diablos

Member
I don't understand, how did it escalate from "If you do this, we'll boycott you" to "Well, we're boycotting you anyway".

RNC is run by morons.
It's the long game, man. Long game. That's what they are focusing on. Think of this as precedent for a bigger plan.

GOPers are dumb but not that dumb. They know how ridiculous this looks. It's clearly a calculated risk.
 

Gotchaye

Member
The cancellation won't hide anything. I'm more interested in how this will impact the fall presidential debates, if at all. IE if someone from CNN or NBC is chosen as a moderator, will the republican candidate refuse to show up?

The cancellation can potentially hide a lot. It's not about viewership - most people only ever see the debates in clips after the fact anyway. The GOP wants moderators who especially want a Republican to win the presidency so that certain sorts of debate moments never come up. This isn't "Republicans decide to have super-crazy debates because they're so super-crazy". This is "Republicans decide to require softball questions at the debates so that candidates never need to defend themselves from attacks from their right". That has advantages for the establishment within the primary - it's harder for their preferred moderate to get knocked out by a conservative firebrand - and it has advantages for the party in the general, since the eventual nominee won't have to backtrack on positions staked out in debates.

This won't really work in a general election. A Republican that refuses to debate Hillary except on Fox is going to look like a coward. Independents don't believe in the whole "liberal media" conspiracy.
 
First, I won't stop pointing out that the way people talk about the government's fiscal operations is incorrect, because the mischaracterization adopts a conservative, gold-standard type thinking that is destructive. Talking about the government like this has got us exactly where we are today.

Second, you should read up on the history of money, if you have any interest. It doesn't exist because it is a more convenient way of trading than barter. It exists to move real goods and services from the private sphere to the government. Money as we know it exists because the government needs a mechanism other than the direct application of brute force to procure goods and labor from individuals and put those resources to public ends. So the government creates money in tandem with an obligation to pay taxes in that money. The obligation to pay taxes drives the demand for the money, which in turn allows the government to "purchase" real goods and services with its otherwise worthless money. You can read about the history of money here, which includes historical examples of the introduction of money into societies by governments.

The history of money is wholly irrelevant. With or without gov't creation of money, nobody is going to buy a coke from a soda machine by trying to insert a cow.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Offered without comment:

BOSTON — In condemning Rep. Steve King's incendiary comments on immigration, RNC chairman Reince Priebus swept in his party's presidential nominee, saying that talk of "self-deportation" was "horrific."

Mitt Romney repeatedly used the term during the Republican primary campaign to talk about how his immigration enforcement policies would lead to unauthorized immigrants leaving the U.S. of their own accord, rather than needing to be deported.

"Using the word 'self-deportation' — it's a horrific comment to make," Priebus said, in a forceful rebuke. "I don't think it has anything to do with our party. When a candidate makes those comments, obviously, it hurts us."

http://www.businessinsider.com/rein...ve-king-self-deportation-2013-8#ixzz2cAD5nHHE[
 

GhaleonEB

Member

Now fast forward to next year, when the question is, why do you want to take away my healthcare coverage? This is only going to get harder to defend.

The history of money is wholly irrelevant. With or without gov't creation of money, nobody is going to buy a coke from a soda machine by trying to insert a cow.

The soda machine exists because of money. Meaning, the very concept of that kind of purchase is facilitated by it, and would not exist otherwise. So the history of money is very relevant.
 
The soda machine exists because of money. Meaning, the very concept of that kind of purchase is facilitated by it, and would not exist otherwise. So the history of money is very relevant.

Is this supposed to be a joke? Are you suggesting that technology advances would never create a soda machine?
 
The history of money is wholly irrelevant. With or without gov't creation of money, nobody is going to buy a coke from a soda machine by trying to insert a cow.

One important thing that becomes really apparent by studying its history is how the government's spending money is the precursor to its collecting money rather than vice versa.

In austerity news, the federal judiciary finally appears to be fighting back against the idiocy that is sequestration. 87 of the 94 Chief Judges of the US District Courts sent a letter to the House and Senate leadership and key members of the House and Senate Judiciary and Appropriations Committees. It's surprisingly stern, especially given how many judges had to be on board to sign it.

http://herculesandtheumpire.com/2013/08/15/87-chief-district-judges-put-congress-on-notice/

Excerpt:

We write to you as Chief Judges of 87 federal district courts to express our grave concern over the impact the flat funding of the last few years, followed by sequestration, is having on the Judiciary’s ability to carry out its constitutional and statutory responsibilities. As the boots on the ground in our nation’s federal trial courts, we have experienced firsthand the effect of those constraints and funding reductions. They have forced us to slash our operations to the bone, and we believe that our constitutional duties, public safety, and the quality of the justice system will be profoundly compromised by any further cuts. ...

Flat funding followed by the sequestration cuts that took effect March 1, 2013, have had a devastating impact on court operations nationwide. Final enacted appropriations for fiscal year 2013 were reduced nearly $350 million for the Judiciary. Emergency measures were implemented throughout the federal court system to address the drastically reduced funding levels, but the federal courts do not have the flexibility to absorb such a large cut on top of previous flat funding. These emergency actions represented a conscientious effort by the Judiciary to mitigate the adverse impact of sequestration on court operations in an attempt to ensure continued access to justice for the citizens of this country. However, the cuts have created an unprecedented financial crisis that is adversely affecting all facets of court operations. ...

Funding cuts to the Judiciary have also put public safety at risk. The Judiciary employs nearly 6,000 law enforcement officers—probation and pretrial services officers—to supervise individuals in the community after they have been convicted of a crime and subsequently released from prison, as well as defendants awaiting trial. The number of convicted offenders under the supervision of federal probation officers hit a record 187,311 in 2012 and is on pace to reach 191,000 by 2014. At a time when the workload in our probation and pretrial offices continues to grow, budget cuts have reduced funding allocations to these offices by 10 percent. ... Particularly troublesome is the 20 percent cut that had to be made to the law enforcement allotments that fund drug, mental health, and sex offender treatment and testing services for offenders, searches, and electronic and GPS monitoring. ...

But the most significant impact of budget cuts and sequestration thus far has been the reduction in funding for Defender Services. These organizations, which have always run on modest budgets while providing high quality legal services, fulfill the mandate of the Sixth Amendment and the Criminal Justice Act for the appointment of counsel for criminal defendants who lack the financial resources to hire an attorney. Because we must provide counsel for indigent defendants, the only options for absorbing the more than $50 million cut to the Defender Services account are reducing federal defender organization (FDO) staffing levels (through layoffs or furloughs) and/or deferring or reducing payments to private panel attorneys. Reducing FDO staff (who work on salary) results in appointments being shifted to CJA panel attorneys (who charge hourly), thus increasing costs rather than reducing them and deferring more panel attorney payments into the next fiscal year. This is an untenable approach, both because it increases costs overall and because adding to appropriations requirements in the coming fiscal year compounds the shortfall of funding in the overall account....

A second year under sequestration will have a devastating, and long lasting, impact on the administration of justice in this country. We urge you to include an anomaly for the Judiciary, at the Senate bill level, if it appears we will be operating under a full-year CR.​
 

Aaron

Member
Republicans just need to let Obamacare go. Obviously, this will be seen as a defeat and will sting, but there's little to no elections happening right now. If they give up on this fight that they can't possibly win immediately, they might be able to rally and do something positive to help with the mid-term elections. Because Obamacare is a sinkhole for them. They're getting nothing out of it but digging themselves deeper.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/08/16/leaked-forever-21-demoting-part-time/

I propose we drop the employer mandate and replace it with an increased payroll tax and take that money to increase the tax credits for individuals with health care. No part time nonsense to worry about then.

That'd also make companies like McDonalds who somehow got opted out to be forced back into paying for their employee's health, and allow people to pick their own damn insurance since the ability to pick is the whole damn reason we're not going to single payer in the first place.
 
The cancellation can potentially hide a lot. It's not about viewership - most people only ever see the debates in clips after the fact anyway. The GOP wants moderators who especially want a Republican to win the presidency so that certain sorts of debate moments never come up. This isn't "Republicans decide to have super-crazy debates because they're so super-crazy". This is "Republicans decide to require softball questions at the debates so that candidates never need to defend themselves from attacks from their right". That has advantages for the establishment within the primary - it's harder for their preferred moderate to get knocked out by a conservative firebrand - and it has advantages for the party in the general, since the eventual nominee won't have to backtrack on positions staked out in debates.

But this simply isn't true, as I've explained. The 2012 debates on Fox featured plenty of "tough" questions that revolved around questioning Romney's conservative credentials and lampooning the more ridiculous candidates. And even if the questions were favorable, the candidates themselves still fucked them up with outrageous statements (Santorum trying to attack Ron Paul on guns, for instance).
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Is this supposed to be a joke? Are you suggesting that technology advances would never create a soda machine?

I'm not sure how you got that from my post. Technological advancements would of course exist and I did not imply otherwise. I said the kind of transactions that a soda machine facilicates require money. I think you came up with an example that demonstrates why the history of money, and the kind of transactions it facilitates is relevant to the discussion. I was surprised to see you dismiss it in the same post.

But this simply isn't true, as I've explained. The 2012 debates on Fox featured plenty of "tough" questions that revolved around questioning Romney's conservative credentials and lampooning the more ridiculous candidates. And even if the questions were favorable, the candidates themselves still fucked them up with outrageous statements (Santorum trying to attack Ron Paul on guns, for instance).

Also, the candidates do not get sheltered just by skipping one or two media outlets. Because those media outlets will still cover them, and report on those debates. They won't disappear.
 
I'm not sure how you got that from my post. Technological advancements would of course exist and I did not imply otherwise. I said the kind of transactions that a soda machine facilicates require money. I think you came up with an example that demonstrates why the history of money, and the kind of transactions it facilitates is relevant to the discussion. I was surprised to see you dismiss it in the same post.

How, in this fictional world of no money, would a soda machine receive compensation for the soda?
 

Gotchaye

Member
But this simply isn't true, as I've explained. The 2012 debates on Fox featured plenty of "tough" questions that revolved around questioning Romney's conservative credentials and lampooning the more ridiculous candidates. And even if the questions were favorable, the candidates themselves still fucked them up with outrageous statements (Santorum trying to attack Ron Paul on guns, for instance).

I think the 2012 debates clearly got away from the party. The establishment didn't realize just how damaging this was all going to be until well into the process. I don't see that there's much reason to think that anyone tried to exercise control over the questions for political reasons. Fox was still experiencing a post-2010 high at the time, and was very concerned with pandering to Tea Party types. The 2012 election was a wake-up call to the party establishment and to people at Fox who actually care about Republicans winning (see poll unskewing and immigration reform, among other things).

So now there's a bunch of flailing around trying to figure out how to hold together a winning coalition without compromising on the hard-line economic positions that the establishment and funders are 100% behind. They perceive that the debates made it harder to force Romney through and damaged Romney in the general, so they want fewer of them and they want the ones that they have to have to be as focused on how evil Democrats are as possible. It would not surprise me to see Priebus push to get a Jennifer Rubin type to moderate a debate or two.
 

Diablos

Member
But this simply isn't true, as I've explained. The 2012 debates on Fox featured plenty of "tough" questions that revolved around questioning Romney's conservative credentials and lampooning the more ridiculous candidates. And even if the questions were favorable, the candidates themselves still fucked them up with outrageous statements (Santorum trying to attack Ron Paul on guns, for instance).
Gotchaye might be implying this is different in that it's a calculated move. That is to say, the suits in the RNC are working with the suits at Fox News, The Weekly Standard, etc. to pamper a GOP Presidential primary. It's a different dynamic when Fox knows they have to compete with the quality of debate programming/questioning on CNN, NBC, ABC, etc. like last time. It's going to be different this time. By cutting the networks they're willing to participate on in half that gives them a lot to gain in terms of trying to shape the narrative.

CNN and NBC both have major cable networks as well as a big online presence. Do you think it's a coincidence or purely because of some stupid documentary that they are kicking them to the curb? Neither. They want complete control.

CNN/NBC can of course just run highlights of the debates but without any direct control over it (i.e. moderators) they are powerless to shape the scope of these debates and what is actually questioned.
 

Diablos

Member
Well, El Rushbo has declined to moderate since he doesn't want his popularity to "overshadow" the nominees. But the good news is Mark Levin says he's totally game:

http://mediamatters.org/video/2013/08/16/mark-levin-im-ready-willing-and-able-to-moderat/195438
Oh fuck. I knew it. Manufactured debates here we come.

RNC Head Priebus On Proposal For Debate Moderated By Hannity, Levin, And Tantaros: "That's A Very Good Idea"
Tantaros: "We Also Have The Fox News Channel"
*vomits*

http://mediamatters.org/video/2013/08/07/rnc-head-priebus-on-proposal-for-debate-moderat/195276

This is what they want. They'll try and use their desperation tactics to drag this out all the way to the general so they can have leverage on one or all debates. Will it succeed? I don't know. But they're going to try really fucking hard.
 
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