If they had probable cause sure in the US.
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PoliGAF 2013 |OT2| Worth 77% of OT1
- Thread starter The Librarian
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If they had probable cause sure in the US.
Probable cause of what? We're talking about the Miranda detention. They didn't have probable cause of any crime or they would have just arrested him instead of relying on schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act to detain him without access to a lawyer.
If they had evidence he had illegally obtained government documents, then that would be probable cause. i was speaking about a hypothetical US detention.
I can't speak to Britain's laws.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
EV, you are mischaracterizing his statements yet again. He uses qualifiers, which you are omitting and treating his statements as absolutes.
Anyway, I think you are completely missing the concept of shared responsibility in treating a problem, and until you buy into that, any even slight fractional responsibility is going to be seen as victim-blaming rather than cautionary. It's a shift in mindset that is difficult for people, but necessary for change.
Anyway, I think you are completely missing the concept of shared responsibility in treating a problem, and until you buy into that, any even slight fractional responsibility is going to be seen as victim-blaming rather than cautionary. It's a shift in mindset that is difficult for people, but necessary for change.
Then how does the additional information posted on the last page make the Miranda detention "make a fuckton more sense?"
You say they had no reason to detain him, I'm thinking they had information that he was transporting the documents. If they had that information, it makes more sense.
empty vessel
Member
I don't think so. He is telling a history. The very next line of the speech is, "All of that history is how progress stalled." Except, it's a fake history, at least the part about black people demanding government handouts and other character flaws.
I believe responsibility lies with power. Those with power shape the world, those without power react to the conditions imposed on them by the powerful. Expecting the people on whom horrid conditions are imposed to share responsibility for living under those conditions isn't fair. Frankly, we have exiled them from our community (sometimes literally as by putting them in cages for their entire lives), and they owe us nothing as far as I can see. Not unlike a rape victim owes her rapist nothing for having worn a shirt skirt.
Fenderputty
Banned
I agree with this. I do understand that people have difficult lives and others have easier one's comparatively. However, Arron Hernandez supposedly had a hard life, but at some point in time one has to take responsibility for their own actions. You can't blame the past for all of your current and future decisions. That's not how things work.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
EV: A fractional responsibility does not warrant that kind of false equivliency.
The responsibility that he is assigning is nominal, and that's clear form context-- unless you are used to hearing it from people who discuss *only* that and as a justification for the status quo.
Destructive riots happened. Poor people (regardless of race, but poverty is disproportionately large among African Americans) do often blame their circumstances and do less than they might about it (it's natural). None of that changes that the deck is stacked against them, which was exactly the point of the speech.
That's only a problem for the people at the far ends-- people who'd eshew all responsibility, and those who want to completely victim blame.
The responsibility that he is assigning is nominal, and that's clear form context-- unless you are used to hearing it from people who discuss *only* that and as a justification for the status quo.
Destructive riots happened. Poor people (regardless of race, but poverty is disproportionately large among African Americans) do often blame their circumstances and do less than they might about it (it's natural). None of that changes that the deck is stacked against them, which was exactly the point of the speech.
That's only a problem for the people at the far ends-- people who'd eshew all responsibility, and those who want to completely victim blame.
empty vessel
Member
We're not talking about on an individual level. We're talking about a social problem and social responsibility. We are never going to stop high black murder rates by asking individual black persons to be more responsible. And if that's the plan, it is no plan at all, and, I believe, neglect of our collective social responsibility. I do not consider it the black community's responsibility as a minority political community to fix the conditions that the rest of society--the political majority--has imposed on them.
adamsappel
Member
I remember reporters in the first Gulf War being shocked that American troops killed Iraqi soldiers by burying them in their bunkers with bulldozers. You could see the Pentagon spokesmen almost rolling their eyes at the naivety. Yes, certain weapons are objectively horrific (though that doesn't necessarily negate their use), but this was a definite "couldn't you have just shot them instead?" squeamish rationale.
Fenderputty
Banned
True, but Obama has talked about personal responsibility numerous time over numerous topics. Not just race relations.
I get that there's institutional racism. I get that the war on drugs is fucked. I'm not saying it's fair either. But I think his point is that you can't just sit and wait for things to fix themselves. You have to pick shit up yourself at some point regardless of how unfair that might be.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
This is exactly what I think he is a saying, along with a commitment to political action. It's a recruiting speech, not a reprimand.
I say they didn't have an acceptable reason to detain him. We already knew that Miranda was working on the Snowden documents and the government's likely motives from the original story. How does this new information make the detention any less objectionable? It's essential for a democracy that the press to have the ability to report on classified materials of public concern without harassment from the government.
I have to agree with EV here. It's good to encourage the black community to keep fighting for change in the face of inequality, but that's not what that passage of Obama's speech reads like to me. It seems more like a victim blaming false equivalence. It's a false equivalence to imply that black people are even close to holding as much blame for their oppression as their oppressors, and he does just that by saying that their actions contributed to the stalling of progress.
I also agree that the passage was only included to appease conservatives/racists in an attempt to appear moderate and respectable to people who may hold some moderately racist beliefs. Obama throws a bone to the conservatives in his speeches all the fucking time and it makes me cringe every time.
empty vessel
Member
I don't disagree with doing something, either. That it's not your responsibility does not mean you don't try to organize and fix it. But I do disagree with that characterization of Obama's point, because making that point does not require blaming people, which he did. This was the distinction I referred to earlier between encouraging people to unify, organize, and work to improve the conditions imposed on them and blaming people for the conditions imposed on them.
ClassyPenguin
Banned
But clearly, they're just lazy and irresponsible and should pull themselves up and work harder.
Poverty can sap people's ability to think clearly
Poverty can sap people's ability to think clearly
PhoenixDark
Banned
Why do you and other people keep lying about this?
Poverty Tour
Jesse Jackson marching demanding Obama help stop Chicago gun violence this year
Rapper T.I., Ja Rule, and Al Sharpton march in Harlem to stop gun violence
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...rch-harlem-stop-gun-violence-article-1.412485
So again STOP saying this! You sound like Bill O'Reilly and we know his objective.
I'll keep saying it because tours, marches, and burying words doesn't change anything. This isn't 1965 anymore, the times have changes and thus civil rights organizations should evolve to better position themselves.
As an example: do you know how easy it is to take over a local school board, or control the quality of people who win local elections that impact your every day life? There's so much focus on having Obama's back that actual local community services/positions, which have a lot of immediate impact on people's lives, are ignored.
Black Mamba
Member
You missed a great opportunity for a solid headline considering she's officiating a marriage with John Roberts in it.
The same school Vice did a thing on?
That's the thing, a basic income is the model. If everyone has enough to survive without struggle, they aren't going to want to do those jobs for a pittance, so the salaries offered will have to rise to make it worthwhile. Invisible hand and all that.
Dominican Power
Member
You mean that school in Arizona?
Black Mamba
Member
But you're ignoring the Demand side of the equation there. Yes, the supply side works but you're not explaining how people can afford those labor costs.
The invisible hand is trying to figure out how the market doesn't collapse on itself.
Dax - there we go!
Absolutely.
Also, lots of people saying that Clinton did a better job at the 50th Anniversary of the March on Washington. wtf? Obama knocked it out of the park, people wanted to him to be aggressive towards Congress and blah blah. Let Clinton and Carter deal with that (and they did) , Obama did a much better job setting the tone of that day and its significance in American history.
The one thing that made me really realize how fucked up this country is right now is how Clinton said a country like this doesn't make voting harder than getting an assault rifle... it made me mad more than anything. Wake up, America.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Then make that point. But don't talk like Bill O'Reilly and say black leaders aren't trying to help black people.
TheHeretic
Banned
Those responsible for murder are the murderers, all you've done is annihilate any concept of individuality with some vague collective notion of societies responsibility.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
That's his view, everything is the elite and powerful fault. Everybody else is just reacting to what they do. But as Obama says, it takes away agency from any member of a minority group. Yes, oppression is real and makes minorities lives harder but it doesn't cause you to run out on your kids. It contributes to factors that cause the chances that that happens to go up, but you aren't forced into that action. It's still a choice and the millions who don't choose when put in similar circumstances are proof.
I do not mean to downplay the social factors that are very real and contribute to this or to say that everyone who does this is evil or hates their family, I understand it's not taken lightly or easy, but the choice is more often than not still made voluntarily and not forced. Human beings can't choose their environment and external but they can choose their actions and how they react. I think MLK Jr. beloved community message was about that. Be bigger than the oppression, face the challenge, and conquer it.
And no your not going to solve the whole problem by appealing to individuals, but it helps and speeds up the process. People can better themselves AND demand a more just society. They're not exclusive
Ah, but any of these services that are genuinely necessary will be covered under the basic income.
And White America brutally murdered him. What's your point?
Black Mamba
Member
Ah, but any of these services that are genuinely necessary will be covered under the basic income.
how?
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I don't understand your point. Does his death negate his philosophy and amazing successes? I don't think so. I think his death shows how effective he was and how powerful his ideas were.
They were so threatening people wanted to kill him to stop him.
If you watch his dream speech which was being honored, one of his key points was about unearned suffering and it's redemptive power to change people. He understood things weren't fair and people would unduly suffer while change was ongoing but it would set an example that would show people the error of their ways and it did. Ghandi had the same idea.
rocketknight
Member
When you tell oppressed people to join their local school boards and stuff, you come across as kind of blind to their actual shitty situations. When you're working two jobs or trying to look after three kids or make sure that that they get to know their imprisoned father or whatever else, you are absolutely not in the same position as generic middle class suburban white parent to be able to just do things like that. I absolutely 100% agree with EV and mckmas8808 on this, and it's totally bizarre to read Fox News talking points here in PoliGAF.
"Why is this black kid choosing to sell marijuana and get sent to jail and make himself unemployable? This white kid did not choose to do that! Black people do this to themselves!"
When there's so much horrible institutional racism machinery chugging along, it just seems really ... trivial to try to make a point about choice and bootstraps. It makes me feel gross because it's a tactic the right uses all the time. There are much bigger things we need to improve before it's going to be useful telling individuals just to try harder.
Since we were discussing the min. wage and such, thought you guys might want to see this:
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/carol-ro...e-you-dont-have-faith-in-the-american-people/
My favorite part is when Kudlow and that other clown start arguing that a min. wage will OBVIOUSLY kill jobs cause FREEDOM, then Jared jumps in and points out that there's no empirical evidence that suggests that, to which they both go back to "bububu FREEDOM!" again.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/carol-ro...e-you-dont-have-faith-in-the-american-people/
My favorite part is when Kudlow and that other clown start arguing that a min. wage will OBVIOUSLY kill jobs cause FREEDOM, then Jared jumps in and points out that there's no empirical evidence that suggests that, to which they both go back to "bububu FREEDOM!" again.
If people no longer need to rely on hard jobs for low wages, the wages for those jobs will naturally rise to make them attractive again. If the government guarantees that basic living costs will be covered, then the added labor costs of those hard jobs that are needed to provide the goods and services for basic living needs will be included in the basic income. A new equilibrium of prices and wages will be reached.
ClassyPenguin
Banned
Exactly why empirical evidence should be valued instead of beliefs and exactly why we are screwed.
That video just shows American politics in a nutshell.
rocketknight
Member
You all can keep your blonde Fox friends and I'll take jburn.
We need to bring back the Unions and in a big way. We also need more workers' rights. A whole fucking bill of workers' rights, covering everything from workplace conditions, pay, doctor visits not being held against you...
Simply increasing the minimum wage, while a good thing, will not solve all of the ills observed in the modern day workplace for us lower and middle class folks.
Simply increasing the minimum wage, while a good thing, will not solve all of the ills observed in the modern day workplace for us lower and middle class folks.
ClassyPenguin
Banned
It's a start at least and tiny by comparison to what we should do and even that gets such a huge opposition, even in this supposed liberal forum.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Not every black person is in the same bad position. And as someone who is black, I feel perfectly comfortable making that assessment about local control and community outreach.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Just cut out the middleman and let the wokers control the means of production.
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