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PoliGAF 2014 |OT| Kay Hagan and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad News

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Wilsongt

Member
Negotiation implies both parties end up with something they want...

Obama seems to be handing the Tea Party sound bites and "scandals" on a silver platter this year, so yeah.

Whoever wins, we lose... Unless it's Democrats, then it's just neutral.

Edit:

Also, Republicans are using this situation to bring up impeachment again.
 
It just seems weird. If Obama can break the law and release the prisoners, why can't he just shut down Gitmo completely? Since Congressional authorization isn't that important after all, anyway?
 
It just seems weird. If Obama can break the law and release the prisoners, why can't he just shut down Gitmo completely? Since Congressional authorization isn't that important after all, anyway?

He did not break the law.

And while Obama can "shut down" gitmo, he cannot get the money needed to ship those people out to wherever, and recipient countries are hard to come by, iirc.

But yes, he could simply order the guards to release the inmates in the island.

That'd be political suicide.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
I can't say for sure, but I really does seem like the President does have the power to do it their self if they really want to. I mean Obama obviously did just release 5 prisoners without congress's approval.

It wont happen right away, but after the wars start becoming a distant memory I think someone like Hillary would do what she has to, to finally end that chapter of american history.

Congress passed laws making it illegal to use any funds to close gitmo or to facilitate the transfer of gitmo detainees to the US, after Obama issued an executive order on his first day to close the facility.
 
It just seems weird. If Obama can break the law and release the prisoners, why can't he just shut down Gitmo completely? Since Congressional authorization isn't that important after all, anyway?

He would need multiple countries to agree to house the prisoners for a period of time. I'd imagine that's very hard - if not impossible - to get an approval for. Qatar is probably getting something, they aren't doing this out of the kindness of their hearts.
 

Tamanon

Banned
He would need multiple countries to agree to house the prisoners for a period of time. I'd imagine that's very hard - if not impossible - to get an approval for. Qatar is probably getting something, they aren't doing this out of the kindness of their hearts.

Probably witholding the NSA logs showing bribery for the World Cup!
 
He did not break the law.

And while Obama can "shut down" gitmo, he cannot get the money needed to ship those people out to wherever, and recipient countries are hard to come by, iirc.

But yes, he could simply order the guards to release the inmates in the island.

That'd be political suicide.

I thought Congress passed a law requiring 30 days notice. It seems pretty clear that he broke that law.

So it seems that either Obama broke the law, or Congress cannot pass laws that bind the President/WH. I know Obama thinks that Congress can't restrict his power on transferring detainees:

Obama said:
In the event that the restrictions on the transfer of Guantanamo detainees in sections 1034 and 1035 operate in a manner that violates constitutional separation of powers principles, my Administration will implement them in a manner that avoids the constitutional conflict.

... but it seems pretty evident that he broke the law here. I don't see how it's debatable?

Otherwise, we have to admit that Obama can release them anytime he wants and shut down Gitmo, But the common complaint is that Congress "won't let him," but that seems like an awful lot of bullshit now.

Speaking of which, if he's okay releasing these 5 high-risk prisoners, why isn't he releasing other prisoners that have apparently been cleared for release for years now?

It just seems like he doesn't actually want to close Gitmo, it was just an election promise that he never intended to fulfill.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Everybody's old friend "Signing Statement" is the reason this isn't a real issue. Just another spar between Congress and the Executive branch. No big deal.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
I thought Congress passed a law requiring 30 days notice. It seems pretty clear that he broke that law.

So it seems that either Obama broke the law, or Congress cannot pass laws that bind the President/WH. I know Obama thinks that Congress can't restrict his power on transferring detainees:



... but it seems pretty evident that he broke the law here. I don't see how it's debatable?

Otherwise, we have to admit that Obama can release them anytime he wants and shut down Gitmo, But the common complaint is that Congress "won't let him," but that seems like an awful lot of bullshit now.

Speaking of which, if he's okay releasing these 5 high-risk prisoners, why isn't he releasing other prisoners that have apparently been cleared for release for years now?

It just seems like he doesn't actually want to close Gitmo, it was just an election promise that he never intended to fulfill.

There's probably a legal difference between trading them for a POW and just letting everyone out.
 
Travis Childers(D-MS) is a nut. Why he thinks himself a Democrat I have no idea. He's made a few votes for funding some shit but beyond that the dude is a complete joke. Unless he's absolutely needed to be vote 50 in the senate...I think the Democrats would be better off this fool not being elected as he could fuck up some committee votes where a sane Democrat would be in his seat and not him.

Of course he only stands a chance if McDaniel(Tea) beats Cochran(R) in the primary but man...I bet Cochran has just as much as a liberal voting record as Childers the wackjob.
 
I thought Congress passed a law requiring 30 days notice. It seems pretty clear that he broke that law.

So it seems that either Obama broke the law, or Congress cannot pass laws that bind the President/WH. I know Obama thinks that Congress can't restrict his power on transferring detainees:

... but it seems pretty evident that he broke the law here. I don't see how it's debatable?

It is never that simple. The usual angle is the signing statement (which, honestly, is ridiculous. if you disagree with a law, have the balls not to pass the damn thing, dont perpetuate horrible customs), but there's also the constitutional angle, where if congress decides to go after him for not following that, a constitutional argument can be started, and it might result in the law being considered unconstitutional (in which case yes, he broke it, but it is irrelevant).

Then there's also the matter that breaking specific laws causes specific penalties (which i could not find for this possible infraction, sorry :( ), and then you gotta see what the penalty in this case is, and whether it can be applied to the president while he holds the title.

If the penalty is making the move null and void, that would be hilarious. Whatchu gon' do, send the pow back?

Nixon got it mostly right, tbh.
 
Travis Childers(D-MS) is a nut. Why he thinks himself a Democrat I have no idea. He's made a few votes for funding some shit but beyond that the dude is a complete joke. Unless he's absolutely needed to be vote 50 in the senate...I think the Democrats would be better off this fool not being elected as he could fuck up some committee votes where a sane Democrat would be in his seat and not him.

Of course he only stands a chance if McDaniel(Tea) beats Cochran(R) in the primary but man...I bet Cochran has just as much as a liberal voting record as Childers the wackjob.

He votes yes on a lot of stimulus stuff. He's a vote for Reid which is the most important thing since other wise the worst he could be is the same as thad.
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
Speaking of which, if he's okay releasing these 5 high-risk prisoners, why isn't he releasing other prisoners that have apparently been cleared for release for years now?

I'm a little confused about this as I haven't read a clear report on the mechanics of the "trade".

Are they actually being released, or just moved into the custody of Qatar for a year and then returned to Gitmo?
 
Wow the boweghazi hysteria has gone full retard on the right. They are saying he should be executed by a firing squad.

That is/was the proper punishment for desertion in some places. Keep in mind, the right wants to return to the old-fashioned honor system, which means more death penalties and less opportunity to get back into society.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Wow the boweghazi hysteria has gone full retard on the right. They are saying he should be executed by a firing squad.

Yeah, it's really fucking pathetic. He's becoming another one of the most hated guys in America because of a vocal few manage to steer the narrative into Crazytown.
 
He votes yes on a lot of stimulus stuff. He's a vote for Reid which is the most important thing since other wise the worst he could be is the same as thad.

I see you failed to address my point on how he could fuck up some committee votes by siding with the Republicans(which I'm sure he'd do quite often). Otherwise if he wasn't there someone else on the Democratic side would get another seat. Childers isn't doing much in the "social issues" arena. He was House author to amend the constitution to deny gay marriage. Voted against adding homophobia to hate crimes list. Said Democrats should have focused on economy when in control of the House instead of enacting Obamacare which Obamacare is tied to the economy saving many people shit tons of money but apparently he can't grasp that. Then there's the whole pro-life, pro-gun wackery.
 
I see you failed to address my point on how he could fuck up some committee votes by siding with the Republicans(which I'm sure he'd do quite often). Otherwise if he wasn't there someone else on the Democratic side would get another seat. Childers isn't doing much in the "social issues" arena. He was House author to amend the constitution to deny gay marriage. Voted against adding homophobia to hate crimes list. Said Democrats should have focused on economy when in control of the House instead of enacting Obamacare which Obamacare is tied to the economy saving many people shit tons of money but apparently he can't grasp that. Then there's the whole pro-life, pro-gun wackery.

He would be a freshman, low on any committees and Reid would know that. Put him on armed services or budget where nothing serious on those dangerous views would come up. And the more dems in the house the less republicans which tilts committees more, he's not necessary 'taking a seat'

Also gay marriage is done, obamacare is done.

Anyways he won't win.
 

Diablos

Member
Washington Post/ABC News Poll:

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W3VGxrP.gif
 
He would be a freshman, low on any committees and Reid would know that. Put him on armed services or budget where nothing serious on those dangerous views would come up. And the more dems in the house the less republicans which tilts committees more, he's not necessary 'taking a seat'

Also gay marriage is done, obamacare is done.

Anyways he won't win.

Obamacare isn't done if he wants to fix it(which lots of Democrats are even talking about doing). Which includes his stance of not allowing federal funds be used in any way for women's reproduction rights. And while gay marriage seems to be in the clear there's always that slight chance of a constitutional amendment barring it from being legal which he supports. That's obviously not helping the debate regarding gay rights but he doesn't care because he believes they don't deserve protections under hate crimes.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Wait, how did this happen? I havent been paying attention to the story at all.

Basically there's questions as to why he would leave the base alone, which allowed himself to be captured. Some of his fellow soldiers in his platoon said it's desertion, but the army and white house have not made any judgement or statement about it yet, and his military records are still clean. Some of this speculation comes from emails he sent his parents soon before being taken captive.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/01/us/bowe-bergdahl-obama-frees-pow-of-taliban-five-years.html?_r=0

At first his emails home were cheerful, his father said, full of stories about “how beautiful it was, how wonderful the people were.” The tone of the emails quickly darkened, said Robert Bergdahl, who declined in the interview to say what specifically set off the change. But in an interview with Robert and Jani Bergdahl in Rolling Stone magazine in June 2012, the parents described morale and discipline problems in the unit and quoted from what they said was their son’s last email to them, three days before his capture.

“I am sorry for everything here,” Sergeant Bergdahl said in the email, according to Rolling Stone. “These people need help, yet what they get is the most conceited country in the world telling them that they are nothing and that they are stupid, that they have no idea how to live.” He then described what his parents believed may have been a formative, traumatic event: seeing an Afghan child run over by a heavy American military vehicle. “We don’t even care when we hear each other talk about running their children down in the dirt streets with our armored trucks,” Sergeant Bergdahl wrote.

After capture, he also made videos denouncing America and supporting Al Queda, which some people are using against him as well, forgetting that even John McCain also made such videos as a POW because as a POW you don't really have a choice.
 
Obamacare isn't done if he wants to fix it(which lots of Democrats are even talking about doing). Which includes his stance of not allowing federal funds be used in any way for women's reproduction rights. And while gay marriage seems to be in the clear there's always that slight chance of a constitutional amendment barring it from being legal which he supports. That's obviously not helping the debate regarding gay rights but he doesn't care because he believes they don't deserve protections under hate crimes.

None of this is realistic. Not really that much to say. And where does he differ on this from Thad? And again Reid is there to block things (Iran sanction bill anyone?) even from his own side.
 
It is never that simple. The usual angle is the signing statement (which, honestly, is ridiculous. if you disagree with a law, have the balls not to pass the damn thing, dont perpetuate horrible customs), but there's also the constitutional angle, where if congress decides to go after him for not following that, a constitutional argument can be started, and it might result in the law being considered unconstitutional (in which case yes, he broke it, but it is irrelevant).

To add to that, IIRC as a senator, Obama ran against signing statements like Bush used. Then he goes on to make his own and use them.


I'm a little confused about this as I haven't read a clear report on the mechanics of the "trade".

Are they actually being released, or just moved into the custody of Qatar for a year and then returned to Gitmo?

It's a "transfer" but regardless they are supposed to notify Congress. The WH isn't even arguing this. Obama has basically complained that Congress requires too much oversight on Gitmo decisions and his signing statement said that basically if he has to go around the law that he just signed, then he will do so.

Then, he did so. It's still breaking the law, it's just that the WH feels that they can break the law when the feel they "need" to:

White House National Security Council spokeswoman Caitlin Hayden told Al Jazeera that Bergdahl's recovery was the "result of unique and exigent circumstances" and "due to a near-term opportunity to save his life, the Administration moved as quickly as possible and determined that the transfer should go forward notwithstanding the notice requirement of the NDAA."

They know it's the law, it's just that they don't care. It's a very dangerous attitude to have.
 
Washington Post/ABC News Poll:

5ThYP4d.png


W3VGxrP.gif

Remember, most people don't know anything about Benghazi or care. The general assumption is that the issue has been debated so much, there's so much "controversy" about it, that something must be wrong. That's how FUD works. It's aim is less so at the people who believe anything, but the people who don't know shit and are easily swayed by perception.

It's like if you asked some random older person "Justin Bieber recently gave $1000 to charity, do you think it was genuine?" Most people would say no, and even if they don't know anything about Bieber they at least know he's viewed negatively.
 
McDaniel was down 2000 votes and just jumped up to where he's only down 300 with 21% in...and he takes the lead with 24% in...up 600. First lead of the night.
 

kehs

Banned
To add to that, IIRC as a senator, Obama ran against signing statements like Bush used. Then he goes on to make his own and use them.




It's a "transfer" but regardless they are supposed to notify Congress. The WH isn't even arguing this. Obama has basically complained that Congress requires too much oversight on Gitmo decisions and his signing statement said that basically if he has to go around the law that he just signed, then he will do so.

Then, he did so. It's still breaking the law, it's just that the WH feels that they can break the law when the feel they "need" to:



They know it's the law, it's just that they don't care. It's a very dangerous attitude to have.

The thirty day notification isn't the only requirement for releasing detainees from gitmo.

This is the only issue that people are calling this an unlawful move, and a huge overreach of executive power.

There's is a massive list of things needed before a transfer of detainees can happen. None of which anyone is complaining about. This is the reason the administration can't just "let everyone go".

Breaking "the law" in this case refers to the 1035 section of the NDAA, and it amounts to saying that you didn't pay your taxes because your post mark was a seconds off on april 15th at midnight.

The Secretary of Defense apparently has provided everything needed to allow for this exchange to happen. If they hadn't we wouldn't be hearing about the inane thirty day clause. We'd be hearing about a whole torrent of other shitty things about these prisoners.



In regard to signing statements, they have been on a much lower order than the previous administration. We might have a better gauge of executive power grab, if the white house was ever given a chance to pass any bills that stay in the bottom drawer of congress.

Just like the debt ceiling, a president's position on issues will change once they come into office. Not because of hypocrisy, but because of the reality how this government operates.
 

FyreWulff

Member
After capture, he also made videos denouncing America and supporting Al Queda, which some people are using against him as well, forgetting that even John McCain also made such videos as a POW because as a POW you don't really have a choice.

You'd think people would figure this out by now. Everyone knows these POW videos are just propaganda and recording them keeps you alive. You don't have to actually mean something to say something.
 
maureen dowd is now getting stoned and writing her columns. literally. this actually happened

I've always found her work unreadable.

She does that . . . and I'm gonna be sexist here . . . woman thing where she takes a few random facts and spins it into a big narrative that is largely just bad assumptions, stereotypes, bad deductions, and outright fiction. Just garbage.
 
I've always found her work unreadable.

She does that . . . and I'm gonna be sexist here . . . woman thing where she takes a few random facts and spins it into a big narrative that is largely just bad assumptions, stereotypes, bad deductions, and outright fiction. Just garbage.

that's not a 'woman thing' because friedman and brooks do they same thing.

Also this is worth a read

https://twitter.com/sarahjeong/timelines/474020489275252737
 
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