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[NYCmetsfan]

Funny, that article (actually its title) is what started this whole discussion.
Why do you think it's important to have a Jewish country?
Don't get me wrong, I think Jews, like everyone, deserve to live in a country free of persecution, but I don't think this Bismarckian idea of getting all the people who share a historical heritage and make country of it is all that great (and as someone who lived in both nation states and non-station states, I think the latter model, like in the US, Canada, Australia etc. is just vastly superior).
And the right of return made sense in the past, as a Jew of eastern European descent, I can't hate on the idea of getting Jews out of Eastern Europe*, but today?
Why does it make sense to give people like Meyer Lanski or Flatto-Sharon citizenship while throwing African asylum seekers in detention camps?

* although it's important to note that Israel did very little to help the Jews during the holocaust, of course, it didn't stop it from deciding after the war that it speaks for all Jews (even thought the majority of Jews were not living in Israel at that time) and get mad money from Germany as compensations while treating holocaust survivors generally terrible (in hebrew slang, they used to be called soaps, yeah, exactly for the reason you think, and that word used to mean a 'patsy' all the way through the 80s) but I digress.

Truthfully, I really think the holocaust and antisemitism are the main drivers of why there needs to be a Jewish state I don't think that antisemitism is dead or ever will be. You still see the 5th column trope or the accusation of disloyalty crop up even today. I think there needs to be a home where they are welcomed and can feel free from persecution and where they control their own destiny. I'm well aware of the problem it presents to the non-jewish citizens of Israel and I think there needs to be a better balance there. The jewish democratic state is a real conundrum because it offends my liberal sensibilities on its face but the realism in me sees it's need.

 

[RustyNails]

Truthfully, I really think the holocaust and antisemitism are the main drivers of why there needs to be a Jewish state I don't think that antisemitism is dead or ever will be. I think there needs to be a home where they are are welcomed and can feel free from persecution as they control their own destiny. I'm well aware of the problem it presents to the non-jewish citizens of Israel. The jewish democratic state is a real conundrum because it offends my liberal sensibilities on its face but the realism in me sees it's need.

I'm all for that. As long as the state they establish does not have any other native population living in it. Just because America did it does not mean it's perfectly acceptable for everyone else.

 

[TheHeretic]

I'm all for that. As long as the state they establish does not have any other native population living in it. Just because America did it does not mean it's perfectly acceptable for everyone else.

And by America you mean just about every state in existence. The creation of Israel was a partition, not a wholesale capture of the entire territory. There was no Palestinian state at the time the country was founded since it was former territory of the Ottoman empire with both Jews and Palestinians living there. Over the past 100 years there have been just about 100 states created, from Pakistan to Uzbekistan. And of those hundred there's only one people frequently talk about undoing, and its pretty obvious why.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I'm all for that. As long as the state they establish does not have any other native population living in it. Just because America did it does not mean it's perfectly acceptable for everyone else.

I think we can't ignore history though. This isn't 1940's middle east. I would have been happy with the UN partition. But the 1947 war/nakba happened. I don't think we can ignore that. It doesn't have to be acceptable to be the reality. The native american genocide isn't acceptable but it happened. I think it is fair that Israel and the PA or whatever Palestinian government acknowledge jointly the many unjust and horrible things that have happened. They shouldn't be forgotten or even 'justified' but it shouldn't be the basis for continued, eternal resentment.

I still think the 'most fair' solution is the 47' borders with no settlements. But I recognize the fact that the most realistic solution is land swaps and Israel probably getting the better deal.

My biggest beef with internet discussions about the middle east is the totality of the comments and arguments. Its not the product of a million actions, thousands of different people, ideologies and ethnicity. Its somehow this black and white argument which one sides is good and the other bad which ever 'side' your on.

 

[Chichikov]

This is the typical anti Israeli nonsense that gets thrown around haphazardly. How would Israel prevent the holocaust between 1939-1945?

I don't think Israel (technically the yishuv as Israel as a state was not founded) could've prevented the holocaust, I never meant to say that, I was just talking about how I think getting Jews out of Europe in early 20th century was a pretty good idea and made the comment that it didn't end up making that much difference in regards to the holocaust.
But since you brought it up, the yishuv before the holocaust cared mostly about getting people into Palestine, and didn't bother with any efforts to get Jews out of Europe to places like the US. At times, it clashed with organizations that did (most famously by refusing to grant certificates to St. Lewis because they knew they'll hop to the US first chance they got).

Israel doesn't claim it speaks for "all Jews", total nonsense. The reparations were for stolen property, slave labour and obscene crimes committed by the Germans.

Ben Gurion explicitly claimed that, he banged heads with the World Jewish Congress (an organization that was much more active during the holocaust by the way) on the subject.
And I'm well aware of the reparations where made for the crimes Germany committed against the Jews, I just wonder why Israel thinkS that they can get billions of dollars and instead of paying survivors and their families (the majority of them didn't live in Israel by the way) they decided to build roads, factories and buy cars fuel and the likes with it.

Then you throw in a slur that holocaust survivors were treated terribly in Israel and called "soaps". Some Sabras called holocaust survivors "sabonim" which is slang for coward, not soaps. The evidence it happened is all anecdotal and theres no evidence it was some endemic problem.

I stand by my assertion.
Israeli leaders publicly wondered wondered how they went "like lamb to the slaughter".
Israel always emphasized the very few resistance incidents in its holocaust memorization (with the very obvious subtext of "you should've fought harder").
They were widely called as "sabonim" (which isn't exactly coward by the way, not sure how to translate it) and that slang term came from the holocaust story of making soap out of people. The non-holocaust survivor meaning only came after that.
Israel decided that it can negotiate on their behalf with Germany and keep the money.

Fuck, till this day you have holocaust survivors living in abject poverty in a country that was build in no small amount on money that was paid for their suffering.

Truthfully, I really think the holocaust and antisemitism are the main drivers of why there needs to be a Jewish state I don't think that antisemitism is dead or ever will be. You still see the 5th column trope or the accusation of disloyalty crop up even today. I think there needs to be a home where they are welcomed and can feel free from persecution and where they control their own destiny. I'm well aware of the problem it presents to the non-jewish citizens of Israel and I think there needs to be a better balance there. The jewish democratic state is a real conundrum because it offends my liberal sensibilities on its face but the realism in me sees it's need.

You think Israel is a safer place for Jews than the US?
Also, I don't think theoretical not yet specified future threats are good enough to throw your liberal sensibilities away.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

You think Israel is a safer place for Jews than the US?
Also, I don't think theoretical not yet specified future threats are good enough to throw your liberal sensibilities away.

I don't know. I'm comfortable in the US but I've had antisemitic experiences, benign but still its not like it doesn't exist.

I don't foresee it ever changing to anti jewish but what about those jewish in other countries. They all become Americans and move to boca?

 

[zero shift]

I always found Jews having their own state kind of ridiculous. I find it even more ridiculous that its in the Middle East. This would be like if LGBT people had their own state in central Africa.

Feel free to ask anything.

- How bad are the Palestinians as well as other minorities such as Ethopians discriminated against?

- Are most Israelis as extreme toward Zionism and being pro-Israel as some of Israeli GAF is?

- Where can I find a good overview over why and how Israel was formed? Not a book but an article.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Can I defend Huck a bit? I think he's saying that the democrat position is that women can't control their sex lives, therefore they need contraceptives. I'm seeing sites like TPM completely changing the context of his comment.

TPM: "Huckabee: Gov't Shouldn't Help Women Who Can't Control Libidos"

He...didn't say that.

"If the Democrats want to insult the women of America by making them believe that they are helpless without Uncle Sugar coming in and providing for them a prescription each month for birth control because they cannot control their libido or their reproductive system without the help of government then so be it! Let us take that discussion all across America because women are far more than the Democrats have played them to be," Huckabee said.

The bolded seems to make it clear that he's saying that's what democrats believe.

disclaimer: I voted for Huckabee in the 2008 primaries lmao. The democrat primary was voided.

That still implies a pretty gross misunderstanding of how contraceptives work.

Like Rush's "Women are having SO MUCH SEX"

 

[TheHeretic]

I don't think Israel (technically the yishuv as Israel as a state was not founded) could've prevented the holocaust, I never meant to say that, I was just talking about how I think getting Jews out of Europe in early 20th century was a pretty good idea and made the comment that it didn't end up making that much difference in regards to the holocaust.

Fine, but that strikes me as irrelevant to anything.

But since you brought it up, the yishuv before the holocaust cared mostly about getting people into Palestine, and didn't bother with any efforts to get Jews out of Europe to places like the US. At times, it clashed with organizations that did (most famously by refusing to grant certificates to St. Lewis because they knew they'll hop to the US first chance they got).

The Yishuv sent soldiers along with the British to fight Nazi Germany. This is more nonsense. What is "St. Lewis", you mean St. Louis? The Voyage of the Damned? That was a product of US immigration policy and antisemitism, not Israel. And it was headed to Cuba anyway.

The rest of this is a weird revisionism that I find more than annoying to read, honestly. I have no doubt the source for ideas like these you've picked up on come from mean spirited (and thats putting it lightly) frame of mind.

 

[Qazaq]

I always found Jews having their own state kind of ridiculous.

I know! You'd think they thought they were under some sort of existential mass threat or something during that time, pssh.

 

[Chichikov]

I always found Jews having their own state kind of ridiculous. I find it even more ridiculous that its in the Middle East. This would be like if LGBT people had their own state in central Africa.

Jews coexisted with Muslims much better than with Christians for most of history.

- How bad are the Palestinians as well as other minorities such as Ethopians discriminated against?

Palestinians in the west bank live in an apartheid state - they can't vote, they don't have freedom of movement and they live under varying level of military rule.
Palestinians inside the 67 borders have the right to vote and have freedom of movement. They are heavily discriminated against when it comes to budgets (they have their own underfunded school system and most live in Palestinians towns/villages/neighborhood) and by government policies.
Ethiopian Jews (and to a lesser extend all non Ashkenazi Jews) "only" suffer from soft discrimination by the state, but the religious establishment treat them like shit.

- Where can I find a good overview over why and how Israel was formed? Not a book but an article.

Not sure, if I think of something I'll let you know.

 

[zero shift]

I know! You'd think they thought they were under some sort of existential mass threat or something during that time, pssh.

...and?

Jews coexisted with Muslims much better than with Christians for most of history.

Good point.

Palestinians in the west bank live in an apartheid state - they can't vote, they don't have freedom of movement and they live under varying level of military rule.
Palestinians inside the 67 borders have the right to vote and have freedom of movement. They are heavily discriminated against when it comes to budgets (they have their own underfunded school system and most live in Palestinians towns/villages/neighborhood) and by government policies.
Ethiopian Jews (and to a lesser extend all non Ashkenazi Jews) "only" suffer from soft discrimination by the state, but the religious establishment treat them like shit.



Not sure, if I think of something I'll let you know.

Thanks! Wonderful information!
Just wondering why did you leave Israel?

 

[NYCmetsfan]

...and?

People who have been historically persecuted should have a safe haven.

 

[zero shift]

People who have been historically persecuted should have a safe haven.

Do they need their own country though? If anything that makes it all the more dangerous. What would stop Hitler from marching into a hypothetical Israel in the 1940s? Even more so with the invention of nuclear bombs after the war.

 

[empty vessel]

People who have been historically persecuted should have a safe haven.

That's a virtually innumerable number of people. Whether historically or today.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Do they need their own country though? If anything that makes it all the more dangerous. What would stop Hitler from marching into a hypothetical Israel in the 1940s? Even more so with the invention of nuclear bombs after the war.

The israeli army

That's a virtually innumerable number of people. Whether historically or today.

And? Israel has a country that is universally recognized (the 47 borders). We're not arguing hypothetical's now. I think there should technically be a kurdistan, tibet, etc as well.

 

[Chichikov]

The Yishuv sent soldiers along with the British to fight Nazi Germany. This is more nonsense. What is "St. Lewis", you mean St. Louis? The Voyage of the Damned? That was a product of US immigration policy and antisemitism, not Israel. And it was headed to Cuba anyway.

Yes I misspelled it like an idiot.
And on the way back to Europe, they applied for certificates to Palestine but the yishuv didn't want to "waste" them on them.
To be fair, this was all before the war and unlike the voyage of the damned narrative, they all eventually got asylum in western (tragically, many of them got asylum in countries that eventually been conquered by the Nazis).
My point was that the yishuv before the holocaust wasn't bothered with getting Jews out of Europe if they didn't want to come to Israel.

The rest of this is a weird revisionism that I find more than annoying to read, honestly. I have no doubt the source for ideas like these you've picked up on come from mean spirited (and thats putting it lightly) frame of mind.

It comes from growing up there and reading a lot of history.
But by all means, continue to psycho-analyze me instead of replying to the points I made.

- Are most Israelis as extreme toward Zionism and being pro-Israel as some of Israeli GAF is?

Oh yeah.
Being non-zionist (forget an anti-zionist) is like being a communist in the US in the 50s.
It's also quite often hurled at anyone who is politically left (even though it's usually bullshit, non-zionists are a tiny minority in Israeli Jews).

Just wondering why did you leave Israel?

I was very politically active and we all failed fucking miserably to get traction with the people. Israel was turning right and the long term outlook just seemed bleak.
I always said that if Sharon get elected prime minister I'm fucking out of there, but I mostly said it because I thought it was an empty threat and no way would that ever happen.
Then it did happen and I found out (like many US liberals in '04) that it's much harder to follow up on such promises than it is to make them.
5 months later my company got bought and I was given an offer I couldn't refuse, and that was that.

The israeli army

Surely you meant to say the British forces in El Alamein.

 

[zero shift]

The israeli army

Seriously? They would be annihilated by Nazis. Nazi Germany pretty much beat the shit out of everyone, except the U.K. which was sort of a draw due to obvious reasons until they ran out of steam.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Seriously? They would be annihilated by Nazis. Nazi Germany pretty much beat the shit out of everyone, except the U.K. which was sort of a draw due to obvious reasons until they ran out of steam.

The point is the Jews could protect themselves instead of relying on the goodness of others.

 

[zero shift]

I was very politically active and we all failed fucking miserably to get traction with the people. Israel was turning right and the long term outlook just seemed bleak.
I always said that if Sharon get elected prime minister I'm fucking out of there, but I mostly said it because I thought it was an empty threat and no way would that ever happen.
Then it did happen and I found out (like many US liberals in '04) that it's much harder to follow up on such promises than it is to make them.
5 months later my company got bought and I was given an offer I couldn't refuse, and that was that..

What were your political positions?

The point is the Jews could protect themselves instead of relying on the goodness of others.

Goodness of others is a world-wide thing. Just because you set up your own state doesn't stop people form invading you. Having their own nation didn't help the Chinese and Eastern Europeans during WWII.

 

[Chichikov]

The point is the Jews could protect themselves instead of relying on the goodness of others.

But they did rely on others.
People from India, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and England died in the desert, far away from their home, stopping the Nazis from conquering Israel.

What were your political positions?

I supported a two state solution in 67 borders at the time and was (I'm more a one state solution these days), like I am right now, a fucking socialist.

I didn't have any philosophical problems with zionism though, only when I lived in other parts of the world I realized that this is not exactly normal.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

But they did rely on others.
People from India, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and England died in the desert, far away from their home, stopping the Nazis from conquering Israel.

I feel like I'm getting attacked for position I don't hold! haha
I'm saying the ultimate responsibility of a 'jewish state' comes from its citizens not the goodness of others. I don't think people should have to rely on others states. The common realization of this idea today is Isreal shouldn't outsources it's defense (not arguing a Iranian strike is in its defense btw.)

 

[NYCmetsfan]

We need to come up with a poligaf SOTU drinking game or at least bingo

 

[Chichikov]

I feel like I'm getting attacked for position I don't hold! haha
I'm saying the ultimate responsibility of a 'jewish state' comes from its citizens not the goodness of others. I don't think people should have to rely on others states. The common realization of this idea today is Isreal shouldn't outsources it's defense (not arguing a Iranian strike is in its defense btw.)

I didn't mean to attack you, sorry.
Anyway, I think a state should defend its citizens, all of them, equally, and Israel, being a "Jewish state" with non-Jewish citizens (and non-citizens) under its control, is not doing a great job at that.

 

[zero shift]

I supported a two state solution in 67 borders at the time and was (I'm more a one state solution these days), like I am right now, a fucking socialist.

- Why do you feel a one state solution is the way to go?

- What is the situation with the "West Bank"? Like what exactly is it?

- How was living in the kibbutz (I believe you said you grew up in one)? Is legitmate communism really all that?

 

[Chichikov]

- Why do you feel a one state solution is the way to go?

It's definitely better for the Palestinians, it's going to be pretty hard to make a working country with two unconnected tiny pieces of lands with practically no natural resources or infrastructure.
I think (and that's a more recent realization) that it may also be better for the Israel, as it will force it to stop the preferential treatment for Jews which is really killing the country from within.

- What is the situation with the "West Bank"? Like what exactly is it?

That's a big question.
Some live under military curfew half their lives, some live in limited autonomy, some have to go through checkpoints to work, some don't.
It's pretty shit for the most part.
Watch Five Broken Cameras (and this isn't even filmed in the really bad parts of the West Bank). Edit: it's on youtube, go watch it, it's really good.

- How was living in the kibbutz (I believe you said you grew up in one)? Is legitmate communism really all that?

It was pretty fun when I was kid, then I became a teenager, and shit, it's a small place (like 800 people, which is consider pretty big for a kibbutz) and I couldn't wait to get the fuck out of there.
As Lou Reed said - there is only one good thing about small town, you know that you want to get out.

It wasn't about ideology, it was about size, I'm just an urban person.

 

[zero shift]

Watch five broken cameras (and this isn't even filmed in the really bad parts of the West Bank). Edit: it's on youtube, go watch it, it's really good.

I already watched it before. It is really good. So basically the West Bank is a hotly contested place that is basically part of Israel but they can't vote?

It was pretty fun when I was kid, then I became a teenager, and shit, it's a small place (like 800 people, which is consider pretty big for a kibbutz) and I couldn't wait to get the fuck out of there.

Is that what convinced you toward socialism? What made it work there in which made communism fail everywhere else? And didn't those places start becoming less communistic in recent years?

As Lou Reed said - there is only one good thing about small town, you know that you want to get out.

It wasn't about ideology, it was about size, I'm just an urban person.

I can relate to that because I grew up in a small town (still am in it as i just graduated school and am now back home) and trying to move to a city lol.

 

[Chichikov]

I already watched it before. It is really good. So basically the West Bank is a hotly contested place that is basically part of Israel but they can't vote?

Not all the west bank is like that, but the Palestinians don't have Israeli passports and they can't vote.
The Jewish settlers can (and do, in large numbers).

Is that what convinced you toward socialism? What made it work there in which made communism fail everywhere else? And didn't those places start becoming less communistic in recent years?

They didn't really succeed, they're not doing all that well these days, my kibbutz is not really a commune - though housing, .healthcare and pensions are still provided.
But they worked pretty well for quite a while.
And they're hardly the only small scale commune that succeeded in history.,


I'm not sure what made me a socialist, but I only started to think about it critically and seriously later in life, after I left the Kibbutz.

 

[zero shift]

Not all the west bank is like that, but the Palestinians don't have Israeli passports and they can't vote.
The Jewish settlers can (and do, in large numbers).

I see.

They didn't really succeed, they're not doing all that well these days, my kibbutz is not really a commune - though housing, .healthcare and pensions are still provided.
But they worked pretty well for quite a while.
And they're hardly the only small scale commune that succeeded in history.,

Why did they start not doing so well?

I'm not sure what made me a socialist, but I only started to think about it critically and seriously later in life, after I left the Kibbutz.

I used to be a socialist back in the day (before I had an account) but I started to grow distasteful due to the fact that nearly every time there is a push for a "revolution" things go sour. Government can't expand to that extreme at least not so fast. I feel that a big turning point was talking to people (non-Gaf) from Venezuela and all the issues they have there. There is also the fact that cooperatives don't have a solid track record. I am still very heavy left but if I were to describe my politics as a strong mix of red and green. It really depends how efficient I see cooperatives to be personally. I know Cuba is heavily experimenting with them but...its Cuba. I can imagine that there would be so much tape that the cooperatives wouldn't be too successful.

 

[Black Mamba]

The Kibbutz never really did all that well on their own. They were propped up by the national gov't. Without it, most would have failed long ago.

Though, I've always believed that they would always fail long term for basically the reason Chichikov left. They're small and teenagers rebel against their parents.

 

[Chichikov]

Why did they start not doing so well?

A lot of it has to do with the economic problems, most of them were based on agriculture, and it became not so economically viable (my kibbutz didn't and it's still doing very well financially).
Also, those places were pretty dogmatic and stingy and they didn't transition well to the consumer society (which in Israel only really began in the 80s). They put equality over all (for example, everyone gets the same TV instead of giving everyone money to buy whatever they want) and it just sucked the will to live, and boy did it led to pettiness.
Finally, ideology just isn't hereditary, and eventually enough people who just didn't care for the model either decided to try and change it, or worse, exploit the shit out it.

I used to be a socialist back in the day (before I had an account) but I started to grow distasteful due to the fact that nearly every time there is a push for a "revolution" things go sour. Government can't expand to that extreme at least not so fast. I feel that a big turning point was talking to people (non-Gaf) from Venezuela and all the issues they have there. There is also the fact that cooperatives don't have a solid track record. I am still very heavy left but if I were to describe my politics as a strong mix of red and green. It really depends how efficient I see cooperatives to be personally. I know Cuba is heavily experimenting with them but...its Cuba. I can imagine that there would be so much tape that the cooperatives wouldn't be too successful.

I still think workers owned business is a much better model than shareholder owned.

The Kibbutz never really did all that well on their own. They were propped up by the national gov't. Without it, most would have failed long ago.

Though, I've always believed that they would always fail long term for basically the reason Chichikov left. They're small and teenagers rebel against their parents.

They did quite well for a while, producing much more per capita than Israel's average (and they still do).

 

[empty vessel]

And? Israel has a country that is universally recognized (the 47 borders). We're not arguing hypothetical's now. I think there should technically be a kurdistan, tibet, etc as well.

My comment was a way of saying your statement was obviously too broad as phrased. You said, without any caveats, that "People who have been historically persecuted should have a safe haven." You have to be more precise than that, because if that is your point, it applies to innumerable peoples. It's an argument that Native Americans, among others, should have "a safe haven," i.e., a country within the territorial borders of the U.S.

 

[Black Mamba]

They did quite well for a while, producing much more per capita than Israel's average (and they still do).

After being heavily subsidized. I wouldn't compare per capita of like 500 people to that of millions, either.

 

[Chichikov]

After being heavily subsidized. I wouldn't compare per capita of like 500 people to that of millions, either.

They weren't really, it was mostly right wing electoral propaganda.

 

[Oblivion]

Good gravy...

Glenn Beck says Bill Nye’s fight against creationism is like the Catholic Church’s war on Galileo

I've experienced a mass genocide of brain cells after reading that. Wow.

 

[Diablos]

lol...

 

[ISOM]

Good gravy...

Glenn Beck says Bill Nye’s fight against creationism is like the Catholic Church’s war on Galileo

I've experienced a mass genocide of brain cells after reading that. Wow.

Him picking such a specific example that is contrary to the point he is trying to make tells me that he is being retarded on purpose. You slipped up on this one beck.

 

[Wray]

Posted this on my facebook feed just now. Cant wait to hear from my conservative friends who refuse to believe in things like White Privilege and racial profiling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7i60GuNRg#t=0

 

[tanooki141]

Posted this on my facebook feed just now. Cant wait to hear from my conservative friends who refuse to believe in things like White Privilege and racial profiling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7i60GuNRg#t=0

I love how they become accomplices when its a young white girl.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

My comment was a way of saying your statement was obviously too broad as phrased. You said, without any caveats, that "People who have been historically persecuted should have a safe haven." You have to be more precise than that, because if that is your point, it applies to innumerable peoples. It's an argument that Native Americans, among others, should have "a safe haven," i.e., a country within the territorial borders of the U.S.

I'm supportive of the reserves and their autonomy. I even have a button on my backpack that was given to me that says "treaties aren't discretionary" protesting the fact the US hasn't lived up to their promises to the Native People of the America. Obviously I can't pretend to know every peoples story but I'm highly supportive of self-determination as a general rule, from sudan, israel and palestine, east timor, etc.

 

[kehs]

Good gravy...

Glenn Beck says Bill Nye’s fight against creationism is like the Catholic Church’s war on Galileo

I've experienced a mass genocide of brain cells after reading that. Wow.

I had forgotten who glenn beck was until I saw his stupid smirk.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

"I am apparently the worst conservative ever or at least the most annoying one according to the left wingers in Washington today," Huckabee wrote in his regular MikeHuckabee.com email to supporters Thursday night. "My remarks to the RNC today were immediately jumped on and blown sky high by hand-wringing, card carrying liberals from coast to coast, some of them in the media."
....
In the email Huckabee also asks for donations to his political action committee so his critics can look at the committee's fundraising and "say see we told you so."

Its all a money game to them

 

[Lucky Forward]

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/...ckabee-falls-into-the-contraception-trap?lite

...RNC Chair Reince Priebus responded to Huckabee’s comments this way: “I don't know what he was talking about. Sort of a goofy way of using some phrases. Not the way I would have phrased it.”

 

[WayneMorse]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/clay-aiken-congress-north-carolina-second-district

So it's official, Clay Aiken is going to challenge Renee Elmers.

 

[Aaron Strife]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/clay-aiken-congress-north-carolina-second-district

So it's official, Clay Aiken is going to challenge Renee Elmers.

Fool's errand.

Sebelius: 3 million people have signed up for private insurance through Obamacare (through 1/15)

Catching up to that 7m estimate.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

I still maintain 2014 will be bad for Dems. The Senate map is very unfriendly, though they might just hold on to majority.

House, I don't expect much changes.

if Hillary runs in 2016, Dems sweep everything.

 

[speculawyer]

Good gravy...

Glenn Beck says Bill Nye’s fight against creationism is like the Catholic Church’s war on Galileo

I've experienced a mass genocide of brain cells after reading that. Wow.

I like the fact that I can hover over a link and see where it goes before clicking. *Hover* Salon? OK . . . I don't want to give Beck a single click.

 

[pigeon]

My comment was a way of saying your statement was obviously too broad as phrased. You said, without any caveats, that "People who have been historically persecuted should have a safe haven." You have to be more precise than that, because if that is your point, it applies to innumerable peoples. It's an argument that Native Americans, among others, should have "a safe haven," i.e., a country within the territorial borders of the U.S.

Honestly, I don't think there's much of a moral argument that they shouldn't have such a safe haven. The arguments offered against it are all practical and pragmatic.

 

[thepotatoman]

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/...ckabee-falls-into-the-contraception-trap?lite

It makes as much sense as the time when a bunch of republicans were comparing welfare to slavery by telling black people to "get off the government plantation".

 

[Aaron Strife]

I still maintain 2014 will be bad for Dems. The Senate map is very unfriendly, though they might just hold on to majority.

House, I don't expect much changes.

if Hillary runs in 2016, Dems sweep everything.

Right now I think it'll be an okay year for Dems. Pick up some House and Governor's seats and keep the Senate. Anything further depends on GOP antics.

We started a national poll last night after Huckabee had been in the news for his comments all day...and he was leading the GOP 2016 field

Ohhhh my.