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PoliGAF 2016 |OT| Ask us about our performance with Latinos in Nevada

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Rachel said on her show yesterday no pollsters want to mess up their average since caucuses are hard to poll, makes sense after Iowa too..

Closed Caucuses are even worse since you have to hit a reduced initial pool (ie Only Republicans for the Republican Caucus and only Democrats for the Democtatic Caucus).

The closed caucuses should be good for Clinton and Republicans-not-named-Trump though since the lack of independents should help them. More so Clinton than Trump I expect.
 
That slate piece is good

I'm only in my 20s (not feeling the burn though) but this stuck out to me

For a progressive, how you reconcile conflicting truths about Clinton depends, to some extent, on how much you empathize with her. Supporting Clinton means justifying the thousands of concessions she’s made to the world as it is, rather than as we want it to be. Doing this is easier, I think, when you are older, and have made more concessions yourself. Indeed, sometimes it feels like to defend Clinton is to defend middle age itself, with all its attenuated expectations and reminders of the uselessness of hindsight.

The "establishment" likely all started out as idealists but they through experience begin to see the world and the fact people disagree and want different things
 
The Dem NV caucus has same day party registration.

That's pretty nice democratically speaking. Not great for polling though (the more questions you have to ask people the more likely they are to hang up on you and then you have to make some kind of estimation of the number of people who say they'll register as a Democrat and then will actually do so). I can see why no one really wants to touch it.
 

Gruco

Banned
I said this in a different thread partly in jest... but I don't really know what message exactly she can project to compete with what Sanders is offering, i.e. basically that you'll have free university and free healthcare, fixing your infrastructure and getting jobs back from the globalised world, while we take it to the fatcats and make them pay; mixed with the world is in turmoil, we have to act now type sense of urgency.

Revolution is the catchcry and it's more compelling than realism or resume.
Dreams are simply more inspiring than reality.

He's managed to project this dreamlike scenario in a way where his support-base believes it plausible, even if dispassionate assessment would probably say it's not. And saying that it's not plausible basically casts her as a nag, or isn't really credible anyway because she's a liar.

Yeah, as much as I agree that Hillary needs better messaging, it's actually really hard to see what that is.

The things that convinced me to support her (that is, genuinely want her to win, not just see it as an "oh, I guess Hillary will be president now") were seeing her care about non-headline issues. The fact that Alzheimer's has a central place on her website. Autism. Seeing her be the one most motivated to talk about / visit Flint. I love her for this stuff but it's not and will never be the puppies and rainbows Sanders pushes out.

So, how do you push back against someone who 1) doesn't care about whether any of their central planks will become law, 2) doesn't always seem to know whether or not what they're talking about already is law, 3) doesn't care at all about making realistic cost projections, and 4) is kind of clueless outside of his comfort zone? Without engaging in the obvious race to the bottom?

It's really hard to see exactly what her solution is. I'd say it's some combination of:

  • Spend more time talking up Obama's accomplishments. For example, say that she'll be happy to sign medicare for all or a public option if it ever winds up on her desk but until that happens she hasn't forgotten about the massive expansion the country just fought for and she's not going to take her eyes off the prize when there's still [launch into technocratic discussion of pilot programs, medicaid expansions. Emphasize that there's still work here. Rattle it off, Fiorina style]
  • Pick a few big ideas she knows aren't going to be law. I mean, it is important for there to be aspirational planks the party fights for over the next 30 years. A public option is definitely one. Universal Pre-K is probably one as well. Actually, Universal Pre-K is a great thing for Clinton to talk about because while Sanders supports it, it's not quite as near and dear to his heart so he doesn't talk about it as much. I think it's a chance to outflank him, as well as be more technocratic about why it's important.
  • Concern troll the fuck out of Bernie. Bernie has a lot of weakness as a candidate, particularly being how he's just not detail oriented. Talk about how numbers tend not to add up, how he doesn't always seem to get foreign policy, etc, while still praising him for his passion and idealism. Given how passionate his supporters are, the passive aggressive shit seems like a better idea than a direct attack.
  • I think Hillary can safely hit Bernie on the right with taxes. His cumulative tax proposals are substantial. Hell, his payroll tax increases are so regressive Hillary can hit him from the left on it.

I don't see what's particularly unrealistic about Sander's policies other than the fact that those plans aren't getting past congress, which you can say the exact same thing for basically everything Clinton proposes. For instance, Sanders may want minimum wage at $15 while Hillary wants it at $12, but it won't even reach $7.26 until democrats control congress.
This may be too idealistic, but I am mildly optimistic about cooperation with Congress going forward. Not over big, gigantic programs like the ones Bernie talks about, but with smaller scale, less politicized issues. Or ones were there is currently some overlap like criminal justice and substance abuse. I think the lesson of the last 8 years is that legislation is possible, so long as the republicans don't feel like you're making an existential threat to them. Either that, or the only reason we've seem some reconciliation is because Obama is a lame duck. But in certain cases, there is a little room for hope here.
 
I saw Trump in South Carolina yesterday.

I don't have anything new to report. He didn't say anything new that was controversial, beyond finally taking potshots at Bernie. Even then, those shots were 'tame.' Just said this country will never elect a socialist, and that Bernie is boring.
 

kess

Member
KLkQWPc.png


https://archive.org/details/win3_ELECT92

This is what Perot looked like in 96

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Got an email from the Hillary campaign this morning (I signed up for both Democratic campaigns a week or so ago just to see what they send me, so far Bernie's has been much more active averaging one per day) and it was a survey asking what my most important issues are in this election, and what will ultimately most influence my vote.

Turns out, deep down, I'm mostly afraid of an entirely Republican run government and paired with the other main issues of this election, my main issue is healthcare. I never took a step back to evaluate my place on this until now.

This is what I am most afraid of. My disdain for the Bernie campaign is based almost exclusively on this. It really isn't an acceptable outcome in my mind, and I totally see how it could happen. Much younger voters seem to think it is impossible, which is scary to me.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Hell, his payroll tax increases are so regressive Hillary can hit him from the left on it.
Typical right-wing talking points I would expect from the modern day Goldwater campaign, those are voluntary employer contributions, not tax increases.
 

benjipwns

Banned
In the wake of Iowa and NH, this is probably best for the Democrats, and Hillary herself:
President Barack Obama’s former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) believes Hillary Clinton should drop out of the presidential race to clear the way for the probe of her private email server by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

In an exclusive interview with The Daily Caller News Foundation, Lt. Gen. Michael T. Flynn (Ret.) said he thought the former Secretary of State should leave the Democratic presidential race: ”I think Hillary Clinton, for the good of the country, should step down and let this FBI investigation play out.”
 
Typical right-wing talking points I would expect from the modern day Goldwater campaign, those are voluntary employer contributions, not tax increases.

It's also a little misleading to classify a tax as regressive without including what its proceeds will be spent on. Even an effectively regressive tax (which payroll tax is) which is then redistributed in a progressive manner can be progressive (e.g if everyone pays a flat 15% tax but that money ends up being distributed 8/15, 4/15, 2/15, 1/15 across income quartiles it's effectively progressive policy).
 

NeoXChaos

Member
Overall, Republicans have 208 Safe seats, and Democrats have 171. That’s 379 of 435 total seats (87%) that we call safe for one party or the other. More broadly, there are 229 seats that are Safe/Likely/Leaning Republican, 188 Safe/Likely/Leaning Democratic, and 18 Toss-ups. The current House is 247-188 Republican, assuming Republicans win a special election to fill the seat of former House Speaker John Boehner (R, OH-8). Splitting the Toss-ups down the middle would result in a 238-197 Republican-controlled House, or a gain of nine seats for the Democrats, which would be on the high end of our current estimate, a five-to-10 seat Democratic gain.

http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/house-update-the-waiting-game/
 

Putzweg

Member
Maybe this is just confirmation bias by me but boy have Politico pushed Rubio for the last 6 months.

Its not outright but its this subtle constant spinning in his favour. In article after article. It always feels like the choice of headlines and the articles themselves are trying to paint a positive narrative in one way or another.
 
I think if you start talking about a brokered convention, it's over for you:

BLUFFTON, S.C. (AP) — The best hope of the Republican establishment just a week ago, Marco Rubio suddenly faces a path to his party's presidential nomination that could require a brokered national convention.

That's according to Rubio's campaign manager, Terry Sullivan, who told The Associated Press that this week's disappointing performance in New Hampshire will extend the Republican nomination fight for another three months, if not longer. It's a worst-case scenario for Rubio and many Republican officials alike who hoped to avoid a prolonged and painful nomination fight in 2016.

"We very easily could be looking at May — or the convention," Sullivan said aboard Rubio's charter jet from New Hampshire to South Carolina on Wednesday. "I would be surprised if it's not May or the convention."

The public embrace of a possible brokered convention marks a sharp shift in rhetoric from Rubio's top adviser that could be designed to raise alarm bells among Republican officials. Yet days after a disappointing fifth-place finish in New Hampshire and looking up at Donald Trump in next-up South Carolina, Rubio's presidential ambitions are truly facing growing odds.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/41b3...bio-eyes-brokered-convention-after-nh-setback
 
I think if you start talking about a brokered convention, it's over for you:



http://bigstory.ap.org/article/41b3...bio-eyes-brokered-convention-after-nh-setback

Either the Establishment vote coalesces though it's the reality of what's going to happen. They ended up splitting the vote between them fairly evenly except Kasich. Unless they keep fracturing the vote in WTA states in which case it's not going to matter because Trump and Cruz will have enough Delegates to make brokering a convention a matter of deciding which one to pick rather than being able to coalesce their fractured tallies into an Establishment candidate.
 

Gruco

Banned
It's also a little misleading to classify a tax as regressive without including what its proceeds will be spent on. Even an effectively regressive tax (which payroll tax is) which is then redistributed in a progressive manner can be progressive (e.g if everyone pays a flat 15% tax but that money ends up being distributed 8/15, 4/15, 2/15, 1/15 across income quartiles it's effectively progressive policy).

Meh. Money is fungible. Even then, it's the program which is progressive, not the tax.

I don't really disagree with you, but payroll taxes are generally not the greatest thing in the world for a variety of reasons. If Bernie thinks they are necessary to pay for his plans (they are), then maybe that's a good reason to spend more time thinking about what can be done with the current framework, which is is great policy and also doesn't increase payroll taxes by 50% on all incomes.
"Bernie and I both want universal health care, but I am the only candidate in the race who wants to do it without soaking the poorest americans"

----

Been looking over Hillary and Bernie's issues pages this morning. Hillary actually has a plank on early childhood ed, Bernie doesn't. WTF Bernie. This is the perfect issue for Hillary to play up and outflank Bernie on the left.
 
Matt Bai has an excellent spitfire article today on Hillary
Not five minutes later, another voter asked Clinton how she would stand up to Republican attacks. She scoffed knowingly and let loose a recitation of how victimized she had been over the years, and how horrible it was to be the target of smear campaigns, and how she was still standing anyway. “It’s unlike anything you’ve ever gone through,” Clinton said.

I thought to myself: Tell that to the guy with colon cancer.

A better politician would have said yes, of course she’d have to deal with some attacks, but that’s life in the arena and she feels lucky to serve. A great politician, like her husband in his prime, would have actually meant it.
But Hillary, truth be told, just isn’t a very gifted politician. And while Sanders focuses relentlessly on the big themes that preoccupy voters, Clinton’s campaign feels like it’s all about her — her résumé, her mettle, her 25 years of suffering through the indignities of public service. “I’m with her” is the slogan for a campaign that seems to signify nothing beyond the joyless accretion of personal loyalties.
This is I believe the heart of the problem: messaging and others have consistently talked about it here and elsewhere. Her campaign is about her rather than her vision. Bai then suggests that only way forward for Hillary is to should latch on to Obama like glue and make it a referendum on him. I slightly disagree. I think "forward" is a good campaign slogan but needs to be refined more.

https://www.yahoo.com/politics/there-is-only-one-way-1362390891388982.html
 

XenodudeX

Junior Member
Not five minutes later, another voter asked Clinton how she would stand up to Republican attacks. She scoffed knowingly and let loose a recitation of how victimized she had been over the years, and how horrible it was to be the target of smear campaigns, and how she was still standing anyway. “It’s unlike anything you’ve ever gone through,” Clinton said.

I thought to myself: Tell that to the guy with colon cancer.
What?
 
That slate piece is good

I'm only in my 20s (not feeling the burn though) but this stuck out to me



The "establishment" likely all started out as idealists but they through experience begin to see the world and the fact people disagree and want different things

Hillary isn't even that conservative.

I think those of us who followed 08 and the first Obama term closely have trouble criticizing HRC for not being a liberal ideologue when we've seen that people like Lieberman and Ben Nelson have been part of the party.
 

teiresias

Member
Meh. Money is fungible. Even then, it's the program which is progressive, not the tax.

I don't really disagree with you, but payroll taxes are generally not the greatest thing in the world for a variety of reasons. If Bernie thinks they are necessary to pay for his plans (they are), then maybe that's a good reason to spend more time thinking about what can be done with the current framework, which is is great policy and also doesn't increase payroll taxes by 50% on all incomes.
"Bernie and I both want universal health care, but I am the only candidate in the race who wants to do it without soaking the poorest americans"

----

Been looking over Hillary and Bernie's issues pages this morning. Hillary actually has a plank on early childhood ed, Bernie doesn't. WTF Bernie. This is the perfect issue for Hillary to play up and outflank Bernie on the left.

As soon as he can work the words "evil wall street" and "big bankers" into it, I'm sure there will be an early childhood ed proposal coming.
 

Gruco

Banned
Soak-the-poor Sanders is too busy ranting about Wall Street Fat Cats to care about the real issues facing American parents right now. When I'm president, I'll going to look to the future, not the past. Early childhood education relieves american families of the high cost of child care and is proven effective in fighting income inequality in future generations. It gives every child a leg up on life. This campaign is about solutions that have proven to work, not about waging a punitive war about events from 8 years ago. Maybe Sanders has forgotten about the hard work president Obama did regulating wall street and passing health care reform, but I haven't. Maybe he thinks raising taxes on the poorest Americans is more important than taking care of our children, but that's just not the way I see it.

It's too much, but you get the idea
 
Soak-the-poor Sanders is too busy ranting about Wall Street Fat Cats to care about the real issues facing American parents right now. When I'm president, I'll going to look to the future, not the past. Early childhood education relieves american families of the high cost of child care and is proven effective in fighting income inequality in future generations. It gives every child a leg up on life. This campaign is about solutions that have proven to work, not about waging a punitive war about events from 8 years ago. Maybe Sanders has forgotten about the hard work president Obama did regulating wall street and passing health care reform, but I haven't. Maybe he thinks raising taxes on the poorest Americans is more important than taking care of our children, but that's just not the way I see it.

It's too much, but you get the idea

Sanders has a pretty decent record on Early Childhood Ed, has worked as a preschool educator and has spoken many times about the importance of it. Doesn't seem like a good thing to hit him on.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsr...ase-sanders-proposes-early-child-care-program
 

benjipwns

Banned
It gives every child a leg up on life.
The rich get richer! That means smart Wall Street bankers out there making bigger banks that make bigger banks with more babies with more early childhood care and then we can't do anything to stop the big banks because big banks are corporations who are people and young corporations or little banks would get early childhood care to help them become big banks and then hire people to give speeches at their big bank receptions and not release the transcripts!
 

Gruco

Banned
Oh, I know he's for it, but I am genuinely pretty shocked that he doesn't even have an issues page for it on his campaign website. Says a lot about his priorities. The point is to outflank him rather than hit him.
 
LOL at them talking like he had it in the bag after a 3rd-place finish in Iowa.

From what I recall most of PoliGAF was freaking out the same way (with the addendum that this meant Clinton absolutely had to be the candidate because Rubio vs Sanders would be Reagan vs Mondale all over again). On the other hand PoliGAF is such that Hillary could murder Sanders on live TV and the only change would be an uptick in searches for polls demonstrating that people would rather vote for a murderer than a socialist.
 
Just as I expected... ppl new to the process freaking out over superdelegates.

I'm not like 100% sure that Super-Delegates should be counted the way they are on trackers, since unlike delegates they aren't actually locked in until they vote. I mean it doesn't really matter here since Clinton's still going to win but it's still a bit misleading.
 

Holmes

Member
Nevada polling on the Dem side will be off because many older generation latinos who speak majority Spanish and horrible English (like my grandparents-in-law here in California for example) 1) distrust strangers on the phone asking them questions about politics in English and 2) will have a hard time even answering the questions that are asked in English. That accounts for a few % and it's why Nevada polling is always more Republican than the results.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Okay, serious talk from a Clinton perspective: I don't think her policies are particularly bad. They're not the ones I'd pick, but I don't think they're so terrible that they're the cause of her malaise. However, I don't think you can say it's a messaging issue, either. The fact that young voters are so disdainful of Clinton has nothing to do with a poor internet campaign or inability to find the right soundbites. I think the key problem she has is on her values - it's not that she can't make a message for them, it's that she's not even very clear on what they are herself. Fundamentally, the role of President is just completely unpredictable. The idea that anyone will be able to meet everything on their campaign manifesto is laughable. They'll do their best, of course, but ultimately selling your policies only has so much impact because people want to know not only what you'd do in the situations you expect, but ones you'd do in the situations you don't expect. That means they want to know the core principles that power you at your political genetic level. For Sanders, that's obvious: it's inequality. If you cut Sanders open, the fight against inequality would be running through him like a stick of rock.

Clinton? I don't really know what her basic moral stance or principle is. It's not LGBT rights - or minority issues in general. It's not campaign finance reform. It's not guns. She could try arguing it's any of those, but it just rings hollow because of her history - and I'm not saying that from a Sanders fan perspective, I'm saying that from the perspective of someone looking at other Sanders fans but also more generally people who are not already in the Clinton camp. This needs to be an authentic value, clearly communicated. I think her best shot is young children. It's definitely authentic - it's been her cause since her political career started. She doesn't have a varied history on this, it's one of the few issues she's been more or less consistent on from day 1. It's also a powerful message. People keep trying to reduce Sanders down to college liberals, but that's a stupid reductionism. He's winning the whole 25-45 block. That means he's almost certainly winning among first-time parents and parents of young children.

She needs to hit that hard. Frame her campaign as being forward looking. Talk about the kind of America she wants to see for young children now. Don't be afraid to sometimes have goals that aren't achievable. People don't care, they want to know your goals because your goals tell them what you're likely to do in the situations you can't predict or when the tables are down. Sell people on early childcare education, as a means to erasing inequality. Sanders is strong because he ties every issue to income inequality, it gives him a unifying theme. If you think that's bad for him, you need to really assess your political radar. Clinton needs the same thing. You can tie early childcare education as erasing racial inequality when targeted in poor African American communities, because it is, as tackling income inequality, because it does. She can branch out into describing why her policies then continue to have an impact all through life. In particular, she should just embrace free tuition. Her current plan is stupidly unappealing and given how unpragmatic half the stuff on her website is, it's not going to break the camel's back on her credibility claims. Win back the 25-45 block by talking about their kids, because that's the thing that any parent cares about more than anything else and it's an issue where Clinton can be authentic through and through. Talk about how you can't risk children, which is why ACA has to be protected first and foremost and that requires entrenching a consensus around it. Etc.

Right now, her campaign style is basically 'disappointed mom'. "Everything you want is never going to happen and is terrible and won't work, but when it all fails you can come back to me". That's awful, just awful. It's negatively inspiring. She'll win the nomination, sure, whatever, but I'm actually genuinely worried about how much support she'll carry with her. Back in October, only 9% of Sanders supporters said they wouldn't vote Clinton. By December, 14%. By January, it was 18%. The last CBS in February had it at 21%. Okay, many of those are exaggerating but Sanders is getting like half the Democratic party at this point. Even if only 10% don't vote that's 5% of the vote gone in the presidential. I don't like Clinton, I want Sanders to win, but given Clinton is going to be the nominee in all likelihood, I do hope she turns her campaign around.
 
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