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[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Which woman has figured it out? Elizabeth Dole?

It's hard to say, because the DNC has spent the last eight years doing absolutely nothing to groom any candidates other than Hillary Clinton, so there is no buffet of female politicians to choose from. I accept that Hillary is the current pinnacle of female politicians, in terms of real-world potential, for better or worse, but that doesn't mean she should be exempt from any particular strand of criticism or that people are obligated, for the sake of anti-sexism, not to give honest feelings about whether or not they find her very appealing as a candidate or person. Likability and charisma are important parts of politics, and even if Hillary had a harder, narrower path to travel to obtain them, she nevertheless has failed, a fact that it's perfectly valid to acknowledge.

 

[B-Dubs]

It's hard to say, because the DNC has spent the last eight years doing absolutely nothing to groom any candidates other than Hillary Clinton, so there is no buffet of female politicians to choose from. I accept that Hillary is the current pinnacle of female politicians, in terms of real-world potential, for better or worse, but that doesn't mean she should be exempt from any particular strand of criticism or that people are obligated, for the sake of anti-sexism, not to give honest feelings about whether or not they find her very appealing as a candidate or person. Likability and charisma are important parts of politics, and even if Hillary had a harder, narrower path to travel to obtain it, she nevertheless has failed, a fact that it's perfectly valid to acknowledge.

Are we pretending Gillibrand doesn't exist?

 

[shinra-bansho]

Well, the closest any woman has ever come to the US Presidency is Clinton, so I'm not sure what frame of reference is being used. The weird fantasy that Warren would have run well and that she doesn't modulate how she appears doesn't really seem a sound basis.

We can look at Empress of Europe Angela Merkel. Does anyone think she doesn't carefully modulate how she appears? Or the treatment of Julia Gillard as the Australian PM.

Success in politics, as with many fields, still requires cultivating a persona of acceptability to cultural norms. This also doesn't just apply to gender.

 

[Cybit]

Right. You moved goalposts.

And no, I can't. But you can't either. So let's just drop this entirely silly line of arguments. I get very frustrated whenever we talk about a female politician's "likeability", so I might tap out.

I guess the part that frustrates me is that I think she is super likable if she just stopped trying to overthink it and was herself, warts, flaws, dominance and all. From what my friends who work for her tell me about her and everything else, I think her personality actually super duper fits the modern times. I just sort of wish she was confident enough to just say "authenticity > current state for me", and use it.

EDIT: The rise of Trump and Sanders should be a sign that authenticity, regardless of policy agreement, is a really powerful thing. I don't know if this makes me a feminist or not, but I hate it that she can't be herself for whatever reason. In the 90s, it made sense. I don't think it makes sense now. That, I guess, is the basic point brainchild and I are trying to make.

 

[ivysaur12]

Are we pretending Gillibrand doesn't exist?

Or Klobuchar, Kween of the North?

 

[brainchild]

If you are going to be, frankly, naive enough to believe that almost every single female politician doesn't have to modulate in some way, on a scale in ways in which their male peers do not have to do, then I have nothing left to say.

So I'm naïve because I'm stating facts now? Okay then.

It's hard to say, because the DNC has spent the last eight years doing absolutely nothing to groom any candidates other than Hillary Clinton, so there is no buffet of female politicians to choose from. I accept that Hillary is the current pinnacle of female politicians, in terms of real-world potential, for better or worse, but that doesn't mean she should be exempt from any particular strand of criticism or that people are obligated, for the sake of anti-sexism, not to give honest feelings about whether or not they find her very appealing as a candidate or person. Likability and charisma are important parts of politics, and even if Hillary had a harder, narrower path to travel to obtain it, she nevertheless has failed, a fact that it's perfectly valid to acknowledge.

Great post.

 

[ivysaur12]

So I'm naïve because I'm stating facts now? Okay then.

You're naive because you're using a pedantic excuse to handwave the struggles that female politicians have to go through in order to be in the public eye, including those who are progressive.

To not believe that this happens at a scale that their male peers do not have to go through is naive.

 

[disastermouse]

That's not her pitch at all.

But there's not much point in engaging with you on this. Your gonna stick to your "hillary is evil" theme.

I don't think Hillary is evil. Evil Hillary could run an effective campaign.

I suspect that Hillary is so guarded that she's a mystery to herself. If she has plumbed her own depths, perhaps she's ashamed (probably without reason) by what she has found there and hence shows absolutely none of it.

People who calculate what they say so that people like them are generally unliked. Except maybe sociopaths...so I would say that her inability to be an effective politician probably argues that she's not one of those.

Her flaws are particularly damaging this cycle is all I'm saying.

 

[ivysaur12]

I don't think Hillary is evil. Evil Hillary could run an effective campaign.

I suspect that Hillary is so guarded that she's a mystery to herself. If she has plumbed her own depths, perhaps she's ashamed (probably without reason) by what she has found there and hence shows absolutely none of it.

People who calculate what they say so that people like them are generally unliked. Except maybe sociopaths...so I would say that her inability to be an effective politician probably argues that she's not one of those.

Her flaws are particularly damaging this cycle is all I'm saying.

I didn't realize PD had an alt.

 

[danm999]

I think she described herself as a human Rorschach test which from where I'm standing is proving to be pretty insightful at the moment.

 

[disastermouse]

I guess the part that frustrates me is that I think she is super likable if she just stopped trying to overthink it and was herself, warts, flaws, dominance and all. From what my friends who work for her tell me about her and everything else, I think her personality actually super duper fits the modern times. I just sort of wish she was confident enough to just say "authenticity > current state for me", and use it.

EDIT: The rise of Trump and Sanders should be a sign that authenticity, regardless of policy agreement, is a really powerful thing. I don't know if this makes me a feminist or not, but I hate it that she can't be herself for whatever reason. In the 90s, it made sense. I don't think it makes sense now. That, I guess, is the basic point brainchild and I are trying to make.

She'd probably win if she did that or had been doing it the whole time, maybe. Doing it now would come across as another ploy.

 

[ivysaur12]

I think she described herself as a human Rorschach test which from where I'm standing is proving to be pretty insightful at the moment.

It was one of the saddest, most insightful things anyone has said about themselves.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I think she described herself as a human Rorschach test which from where I'm standing is proving to be pretty insightful at the moment.

The fun part is how that statement in itself was taken in a bunch of different ways.

 

[danm999]

The fun part is how that statement in itself was taken in a bunch of different ways.

We're gonna beg her to save us and she's gonna look down and say "no"?

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Are we pretending Gillibrand doesn't exist?

Was she ready to run in 2016? Because my main complaint re: Clinton has been that her being a strong candidate is predicated on the Republicans offering a weak candidate. She doesn't have very strong favorables outside the Democratic Party and hasn't offered an attractive, unified political vision for her campaign, and if the Republicans somehow managed to nominate someone like Kasich, even with his weird use of his lips, she'd have a real chance of losing the center.

 

[Jenov]

I guess the part that frustrates me is that I think she is super likable if she just stopped trying to overthink it and was herself, warts, flaws, dominance and all. From what my friends who work for her tell me about her and everything else, I think her personality actually super duper fits the modern times. I just sort of wish she was confident enough to just say "authenticity > current state for me", and use it.

EDIT: The rise of Trump and Sanders should be a sign that authenticity, regardless of policy agreement, is a really powerful thing. I don't know if this makes me a feminist or not, but I hate it that she can't be herself for whatever reason. In the 90s, it made sense. I don't think it makes sense now. That, I guess, is the basic point brainchild and I are trying to make.

Trump is the sign of authenticity? Mr. flip flopper himself? The guy that even has a conspiracy that Bill Clinton asked him to run as a RINO to destroy the repubs from within? Come on.

I think she described herself as a human Rorschach test which from where I'm standing is proving to be pretty insightful at the moment.

Poetic really.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

I've never even heard of Nina Turner outside of the singer.

 

[disastermouse]

You're naive because you're using a pedantic excuse to handwave the struggles that female politicians have to go through in order to be in the public eye, including those who are progressive.

To not believe that this happens at a scale that their male peers do not have to go through is naive.

She has to play the lay of the land, not some fantasy rainbow unicorn utopia where her gender isn't an issue and if she complains about her gender being a barrier it ain't no thang.

And you are the guys accusing us Sanders folk as 'living in a fairytale'!

 

[Macho Madness]

Beat me if posted

USA Today/Suffolk National Poll

Clinton 50
Sanders 39

Trump 35
Cruz 20
Rubio 17
Kasich 7
Bush 6
Carson 4

 

[brainchild]

Well, the closest any woman has ever come to the US Presidency is Clinton, so I'm not sure what frame of reference is being used. The weird fantasy that Warren would have run well and that she doesn't modulate how she appears doesn't really seem a sound basis.

We can look at Empress of Europe Angela Merkel. Does anyone think she doesn't carefully modulate how she appears? Or the treatment of Julia Gillard as the Australian PM.

Success in politics, as with many fields, still requires cultivating a persona of acceptability to cultural norms. This also doesn't just apply to gender.

It could have something to do with the possibility of women who are adamant in being themselves feeling less inclined to run for president due to certain societal pressures that they would undoubtedly have to contend with.

As for success in politics, it really depends. Some people (like myself) are actually drawn towards people who proudly present themselves with transparency and authenticity, and depending on how strong their supporters are, it could be the very thing that makes them successful.

It's one of Bernie's most admirable characteristics, and I'd say the same thing about Trump as well.

 

[Makai]

Is this a real picture of Jeb?

 

[johnsmith]

This is a great gif

Somehow I think we missed this, but the finger wag did hit the news
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...lot-and-people-are-starting-to-talk-about-it/

 

[Roland_Gunner]

It's hard to say, because the DNC has spent the last eight years doing absolutely nothing to groom any candidates other than Hillary Clinton, so there is no buffet of female politicians to choose from.

Ah, the always popular 'why has the DNC failed us' lament. For a comparison, lets look at the Republican field where Marco Rubio, Scott Walker, Rand Paul, and Chris Christie offered conservatives a menu of every kind of young, hip choice possible. The result, of course, is that three of them didn't even make it South Carolina and Rubio is being dragged there by the establishment no matter how apathetic voters are to him. If there is one clear lesson from this race its that the establishment has less power now than ever so expecting them to provide for whatever wants you dream up has never been less possible.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

What I will say is this debate touches on the essence of the "Known generally, unknown specifically" problem. We know that sexism, racism, global warming, etc, exist and have impacts regardless of whether you think you're affected by them or not. But it's nearly impossible to look at any single instance of them and "prove" the relationship.

I don't find Hillary charismatic but I also know my impressions of women were formed in a cultural backdrop that has created implicit biases, same as I have implicit biases against blacks. I can't untangle those in an objective way.

 

[Aaron Strife]

So is this George Bush gun thing like his Dukakis tank moment

Because it's pretty hilarious!

I just realized I put "George" instead of "Jeb"

You know what? I'm not even gonna fix it!

 

[VendettaRed07]

Cybit - I completely agree.

The politician I would liken Hillary to is John Kerry, actually. Like him, her whole demeanor and presence is stiff and uninviting, and that simply doesn't read well in a modern national political campaign. Bill was accused of, and DID far worse stuff than her, but he bounced back because he was able to project likability, charm, and humor even at his lowest moment. Bush was the same - the country was a disaster in 2004, but he nevertheless eked out a victory against Kerry because the country could relate to him, and to the difficulties they faced, in a way they couldn't relate to Kerry. I think the complaints against Hillary do resemble some of the more general struggles women face in leadership positions, but I also think the resemblance is superficial, because in her case, I think they're genuinely true.

I don't see this at all. Hillary has a shit ton more presence and personality than Kerry. She's practically Tigger to Kerry's Eeyore

 

[Retromelon]

I've never even heard of Nina Turner outside of the singer.

Thats tina turner brawndo.

 

[danm999]

Is this a real picture of Jeb?

Bottom half looks spliced with Chrisite.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

Thats tina turner brawndo.

FUUUUU

 

[Holmes]

This is a great gif

Somehow I think we missed this, but the finger wag did hit the news
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...lot-and-people-are-starting-to-talk-about-it/

I may be stepping on a landmine by saying this considering where the current discussion is, but can you imagine a female candidate constantly wagging her finger to a man in a debate?

 

[brainchild]

You're naive because you're using a pedantic excuse to handwave the struggles that female politicians have to go through in order to be in the public eye, including those who are progressive.

To not believe that this happens at a scale that their male peers do not have to go through is naive.

Except that I very much acknowledge (and have acknowledged) their struggles, so I'm not handwaving anything.

And I'll acknowledge it again right now, yes, women have to deal with unfair social pressures to behave a certain way in the public eye. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT EVERY WOMAN WILL GIVE IN TO THOSE PRESSURES. That's not handwaving, it's the truth.

To suggest that every woman succumb to societal norms no matter what is actually quite offensive, as you're basically (unintentionally or not) categorizing women as a monolith.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Is this a real picture of Jeb?

daily stormer? is that a neo-nazi site?

 

[AnotherNils]

I just realized I put "George" instead of "Jeb"

You know what? I'm not even gonna fix it!

(Also: I think its an apt comparison)

 

[maabus1999]

I may be stepping on a landmine by saying this considering where the current discussion is, but can you imagine a female candidate constantly wagging her finger to a man in a debate?

Naaa, he got panned by the media after that debate for that reason. And the "Not in the White House comment."

 

[Makai]

daily stormer? is that a neo-nazi site?

Wow, yes it is. One of the top results in Google Image.

 

[Macho Madness]

Bottom half looks spliced with Chrisite.

?

He lost weight before starting his campaign.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Ah, the always popular 'why has the DNC failed us' lament. For a comparison, lets look at the Republican field where Marco Rubio, Scott Walker, Rand Paul, and Chris Christie offered conservatives a menu of every kind of young, hip choice possible. The result, of course, is that three of them didn't even make it South Carolina and Rubio is being dragged there by the establishment no matter how apathetic voters are to him. If there is one clear lesson from this race its that the establishment has less power now than ever so expecting them to provide for whatever wants you dream up has never been less possible.

Ultimately, though, voters can only pick from the candidates that are on the ballot, and nobody wanted to spend their political capital facing Hillary knowing the DNC was firmly behind her candidacy. While it's true that more debates probably wouldn't have helped Sanders, the Sanders supporters were nevertheless correct in point out that, structurally, limited debates at odd times DO help whoever is the candidate with the biggest profile going in. The establishment is not all-powerful, but the Dem establishment has not collapsed nearly as much as the GOP, and it was their choice to basically openly go all-in on a single horse with a lot of baggage on its back.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Imagine how much less interesting this election would have been without Jeb serving as a punching bag for Trump. For that reason alone I hope he sticks around as long as possible, the debates will be worthless without that dynamic.

 

[Jenov]

Is this a real picture of Jeb?

I hope it's as real as this one

 

[ivysaur12]

Except that I very much acknowledge (and have acknowledged) their struggles, so I'm not handwaving anything.

And I'll acknowledge it again right now, yes, women have to deal with unfair social pressures to behave a certain way in the public eye. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT EVERY WOMAN WILL GIVE IN TO THOSE PRESSURES. That's not handwaving, it's the truth.

To suggest that every woman succumb to societal norms no matter what is actually quite offensive, as you're basically (unintentionally or not) categorizing women as a monolith.

We're not talking about every woman on Earth. We're talking about the very real pressures that come with being in the public eye by trying to win office.

 

[maabus1999]

I hope it's as real as this one

Text doesn't look part of the original image so no.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I may be stepping on a landmine by saying this considering where the current discussion is, but can you imagine a female candidate constantly wagging her finger to a man in a debate?

This is absolutely a fair point, and a perfect example of how Hillary doesn't have the freedom to be loose and idiosyncratic, whereas someone like Bernie does. I never have nor would deny that such constrictions exist. But even knowing this, and actively adjusting for it in my internal calculations, I still find her very uninspiring as a candidate.

 

[Jenov]

I may be stepping on a landmine by saying this considering where the current discussion is, but can you imagine a female candidate constantly wagging her finger to a man in a debate?

I was thinking that exact thing. If Hillary was doing that... my god. Would probably be a campaign ender for her.

Text doesn't look part of the original image so no.

DAMN IT!

 

[Makai]

Imagine how much less interesting this election would have been without Jeb serving as a punching bag for Trump. For that reason alone I hope he sticks around as long as possible, the debates will be worthless without that dynamic.

Yeah. But then Walker would be Trump's "front-runner" punching bag.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

And the "Not in the White House comment."

Had he said it in the first debate when he was seen as a long-shot underdog, it might have gotten the reaction he expected. That it fell flat is a sign that he's being taken seriously, so it just came across as mean. In that sense, it's a good sign for Sanders that the line didn't work. If it had, it would be a sign that he's still seen as a temporary wrench in her coronation rather than a worthy opponent.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Dukakis destroys Scalia:

How well did you know Scalia at law school?

Not well. It was an interesting class. Scalia, myself, Paul Sarbanes, Bill Ruckelshaus. But in those days, Isaac, we had a class of 475 that was divided in thirds. So you got to know your section very well. But I didn’t know who Scalia was until the last semester of my last year, when I took a class called Federal Courts and the Federal System, with a great man named Henry Hart. It is 1960. We are in the middle of the civil rights revolution. And there’s this guy in class who begins engaging Professor Hart every day in these long dialogues over whether it was appropriate for federal judges to reach in and take cases away from Southern criminal courts, in cases where, as everyone knew, if you were a black defendant, forget it. And this went on for about three weeks. [Laughs.] I finally turned to the guy next to me and said, “Who the hell is that guy?” He said, “That’s Scalia, he’s on the law review.” And I said, “Does he know what it’s like to be black in the South?” A bright guy—yeah. But he was to the right of Marie Antoinette for Christ’s sake. There was no consistency in his so-called philosophy. Money is corporate speech. This is all preposterous.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...y_antonin_scalia_and_donald_trump.single.html

He's got some... interesting views on foreign policy still, but this was an interesting story.

 

[GnawtyDog]

This might force Trump to finally start going after Rubio.

All in due time...

 

[brainchild]

We're not talking about every woman on Earth. We're talking about the very real pressures that come with being in the public eye by trying to win office.

So am I, and emphasizing that point does nothing to change the validity of my argument. Not even one iota.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

The default starting position for an 'objective' argument is not the negative position. It's the unknown position. Failing to prove a positive doesn't mean the negative is true.

 

[eBay Huckster]

What you leave out here is that Nina Turner was a state senator and when she tried to run statewide she got her butt kicked.

Specifically, she was a state senator from the 25th district, which includes most of the federal 11th (with the exception of Cleveland Heights, which got gerrymandered in the state senate map to the 21st), which as a whole has a Cook PVI of D+30.