I was hoping to do just that during the 2018 primaries. People seem kind of bummed about the idea though.
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PoliGAF 2017 |OT2| Well, maybe McMaster isn't a traitor.
- Thread starter ItWasMeantToBe19
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I was hoping to do just that during the 2018 primaries. People seem kind of bummed about the idea though.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I really don't know what the right answer here is. A 50 state strategy (or really any good strategy) in America in the modern age is going to require running candidates who...keep quiet about certain issues, that much is sure, at least on the campaign trail. Manchin crosses the line over into support for active harm enough that I'm not going to cry if he gets the boot, but he also hasn't, to my knowledge, been the deciding vote in anything shitty yet and is one more vote to count on on certain issues so
fuck
metalslimer
Member
I mean I guess the best solution is to run a pretty conservative dem that wouldn't cross the line to vote for fucking Sessions, but I don't know what else is the limit. I'm fine with supporting Gorsuch as long as there isn't enough people to actually break the filibuster. If you could find someone more like Heiitkamp to run in WV and have a shot I would say go for it. It's not like we are winning back the senate in 2018 anyway.
Aaron Strife
Banned
I mean if WV Democrats feel it's best to run a more progressive/less racist candidate against Joe Manchin, be my guest. If I lived in WV I'd probably be pretty jazzed by the prospect.
The calculation they'll always make however is would such a candidate be able to win a general there, and the answer is most likely no.
The answer to "what is the number of people who's marginal vote in their state/local/national election (who aren't in WV) is based on Manchin's presence in the Democratic party" is almost certainly zero.
The Senate Caucus as a whole, if we get control, will be much further to the left than it was in '08. Manchin will likely not be the marginal 51st vote, but you want him as an insurance policy just in case.
The Senate Caucus as a whole, if we get control, will be much further to the left than it was in '08. Manchin will likely not be the marginal 51st vote, but you want him as an insurance policy just in case.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
I swear I saw somewhere that the WV Democratic Party actually did have some interest in doing so but I can't seem to find it. I did find this gem though.
I read that as a positive- he's got loyalty to the Dems. He could have flipped a long time, but didn't, and if you need him for a 51st vote, it's unlikely that he'll screw you.
All the votes he's "bailed" on? We didn't need him. We have no power right now. Manchin being the blue doggiest of blue dogs in ceremonial votes is good for his re-election chances. He kept ranks and voted against DeVos and forced the tie.
All the votes he's "bailed" on? We didn't need him. We have no power right now. Manchin being the blue doggiest of blue dogs in ceremonial votes is good for his re-election chances. He kept ranks and voted against DeVos and forced the tie.
broz0rs
Member
This post was slept on in this thread today, and it seems the supposed Comey account changed to private and sent out its first tweet. Here's the content for those who don't have Twitter.
with a link to the FBI's job listing site lol
shinra-bansho
Member
What on earth does primarying Manchin achieve. Nonsensical.
This post was slept on in this thread today, and it seems the supposed Comey account changed to private and sent out its first tweet. Here's the content for those who don't have Twitter.
with a link to the FBI's job listing site lol
Lol awesome
shinra-bansho
Member
They don't. Nonsensical.
whyamihere
Banned
Wait. Did this all start with... Christine O'Donnell?
In what world is a minority in NV not going to vote Democrat because 1 of 48 Senators is kinda racist??
How many people who be interested enough in politics (aka the kind of people who show up to vote regardless!) to even know who the fuck Joe Manchin is would sit out because of that??
How many people who be interested enough in politics (aka the kind of people who show up to vote regardless!) to even know who the fuck Joe Manchin is would sit out because of that??
neurosisxeno
Member
Wait. Did this all start with... Christine O'Donnell?
No because no one read that shit. Clearly this is all Senator Armstrong's fault.
shinra-bansho
Member
Because it's a waste of time.
Manchin is about as liberal a Democratic Senator as you are going to get from WV.
If you damage him during that primary it's bad for the general.
If you somehow get someone to beat him, it's also likely bad for the general if they're too liberal.
The alternative is an R Senator.
Manchin has more utility than that alternative.
Manchin is about as liberal a Democratic Senator as you are going to get from WV.
If you damage him during that primary it's bad for the general.
If you somehow get someone to beat him, it's also likely bad for the general if they're too liberal.
The alternative is an R Senator.
Manchin has more utility than that alternative.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Joe Manchin is a white supremacist?
50 state strategy doesn't really work unless you're willing to be flexible with your idea of what a Dem is. Unless you think Kamala Harris could move to Utah and win there.
50 state strategy doesn't really work unless you're willing to be flexible with your idea of what a Dem is. Unless you think Kamala Harris could move to Utah and win there.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
This argument only works if you think the 50 state strategy is something worth pursuing. I'm on the record for saying it's a waste of time and resources!
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Joe Manchin is a white supremacist, yes.
But you have to have white supremacists to do a 50 state strategy, yes.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Can you guys at least explain the accusation?
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
he voted to make a Klansmen the top cop in the nation
If the definition of "50 state strategy" is "sometimes we're gonna run white supremacists so get on board" then I guess we shouldn't do it.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
I still haven't seen anything that leads me to believe Manchin is a white supremacist given the strict definition of that term. Secondly, operating under the assumption that Joe Manchin is not a white supremacist, which seems fairly reasonable at this time, you know exactly what I fucking meant.
neurosisxeno
Member
The logic is that he was okay voting to confirm an AG that had some questionable sorta white supremacist-y views, so he's complicit in helping the cause. I think it's a stretch, because as far as I know Sessions was going to pass anyway. The vote was 52-47. Would it have mattered if Manchin votes Nay to make it 51-48? Sessions still becomes AG.
You definitely can't run the exact same candidate in each state. People are invested in descriptive representation and the states all have different images of themselves in mind.
But, as a political party, the Dems should still want some basic consistency and minimum standards. Zero-sum rationalists may not be moved by that, but I think things like not-being-racist are ideological necessities, whose absence would hurt the party's credibility.
You know, I don't think you guys always argue with each other in good faith, honestly.
But, as a political party, the Dems should still want some basic consistency and minimum standards. Zero-sum rationalists may not be moved by that, but I think things like not-being-racist are ideological necessities, whose absence would hurt the party's credibility.
You know, I don't think you guys always argue with each other in good faith, honestly.
RastaMentality
Banned
I think black people themselves may tend to be conservative (religious and anti gay) but none are gonna ever vote against progressivism or have an issue with it. We also tend to be very pro choice considering how religious the demographic is.
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I think if Manchin starts saying overtly racist shit in the media that makes national news and casts further doubt among POC with the democratic party then he can and should be dashed to the side. I don't necessarily care about his outcome next year but it would be somewhat unproductive to primary him.
I mean, I feel like this is the same game that Valheim wanted to play last week about controlling definitions. The reasons I oppose Manchin are pretty clear in the thread, I think -- he voted for and endorsed Sessions, and Sessions is a white supremacist. It doesn't really matter to me whether you think that makes him a white supremacist or not. I think he's pretty obviously supporting white supremacy.
Some questionable sorta white supremacist-y views like SAYING HE LIKED THE KU KLUX KLAN, SAYING HE NEVER WANTED TO PROSECUTE ANY CIVIL RIGHTS CASES, AND CALLING THE NAACP UNAMERICAN.
This is a pretty amazing post. Maybe I should just go back to yelling about how white progressives love to normalize white supremacy!
shinra-bansho
Member
Oh please, you think everyone is a Nazi.
shinra-bansho
Member
And a whole bunch of GOP Senators voted for Crooked Hillary.
Manchin made an entirely inconsequential vote for Sessions. Who actually got a surprisingly low number of crossover votes for a sitting Senator.
He is still the best you're going to get from West Virginia. And better than the alternative.
Manchin made an entirely inconsequential vote for Sessions. Who actually got a surprisingly low number of crossover votes for a sitting Senator.
He is still the best you're going to get from West Virginia. And better than the alternative.
Prototype Viktor
Member
i don't think the guy in my mirror is a nazi...but i do think the ghost in my attic is one
neurosisxeno
Member
Did I ever say I was okay with these things? Absolutely not. But I didn't pay too much attention to Sessions confirmation so I don't know what compelled Manchin to vote for him, but it was a clean split otherwise, so maybe Sessions polled well with people in his state and he wanted to shore up his chances for 2018. Do I think voting to confirm Jeff Sessions was a good idea? No, fuck that racist piece of shit. Do I think voting to confirm Jeff Sessions when he's clearly got enough votes already makes Manchin a white supremacist? No. He may be an idiot, but he's still a Democrat in a deep red state so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
benjipwns
Banned
Do I have to do everything around here?
http://www.manchin.senate.gov/publi...eases?ID=ebf97552-671d-4ab6-b2b0-4c156bd744cb
http://www.manchin.senate.gov/publi...eases?ID=ebf97552-671d-4ab6-b2b0-4c156bd744cb
neurosisxeno
Member
Okay, maybe fuck Joe Manchin a little bit. But Byrd was kind of a monolith in the Senate. One does not spend 51 years in the Senate without being pretty beloved by their constituents. I think him being a former KKK member definitely makes him quite shitty, but I imagine he's probably quite beloved in West Virginia, and there's no way Manchin wins if he goes up there and says "Robert Byrd? More like Shit Byrd am I right?"
shinra-bansho
Member
Benji is being benji. Byrd is the rare example of someone who spent much of his adult life trying to atone for his mistake.
neurosisxeno
Member
I mean, he did say this in 2001:
But then again there is also this in the section on Race in his Wikipedia page:
aspiegamer
Member
Come on, this isn't hard. Even a Manchin who might vote with Democrats half the time is better than literally any R who is going to do so almost 0% of the time. He doesn't even break on that that many things. Part of being a proper Big Tent Party means bringing people in that aren't necessarily in line with your beliefs and your full agenda, and any D > any R to take up a seat in Congress.
"Purity tests" are also extremely contrary to the Big Tent philosophy and would ruin any chance at a modern 50-state strategy, so this needs to be kept out of control. It's okay for someone qualified to mount a challenge in a primary, but to primary just because you're angry about a few specific things while someone is in line with the party 90%++ of the time is silly. Republicans are fucked in the House right now because their candidate vetting in 2010 specifically was just awful. They were wiling to take any warm body that hated Obama, and, ironically, those most fervent are now part of the reason why Obama's legacy will remain more intact. Imagine if Democrats had any split like that during some House control in the future. We'd all sit here screaming at one another all day. ...Erm, well, more than usual.
"Purity tests" are also extremely contrary to the Big Tent philosophy and would ruin any chance at a modern 50-state strategy, so this needs to be kept out of control. It's okay for someone qualified to mount a challenge in a primary, but to primary just because you're angry about a few specific things while someone is in line with the party 90%++ of the time is silly. Republicans are fucked in the House right now because their candidate vetting in 2010 specifically was just awful. They were wiling to take any warm body that hated Obama, and, ironically, those most fervent are now part of the reason why Obama's legacy will remain more intact. Imagine if Democrats had any split like that during some House control in the future. We'd all sit here screaming at one another all day. ...Erm, well, more than usual.
I think Pigeons point is that there is a difference between being a big tent party that disagrees on policy issues, and being a big tent party that accepts white supremacists in order to gain power.
Manchin voted for Sessions, which I do think should be a red line for democrats. He also meets with Breitbart regularly.
At what point is something not just a policy issue, but a moral and principles issue? If the party won't even reject white supremacy for losing votes, what's the point of the party?
Obviously as a white british gay guy I'm not able to really understand the experiences of black men in the USA, but as an equivalent would we be okay with supporting left wing politicians who say homosexuality should be illegal, if doing so got us a senate seat in Alabama?
Manchin voted for Sessions, which I do think should be a red line for democrats. He also meets with Breitbart regularly.
At what point is something not just a policy issue, but a moral and principles issue? If the party won't even reject white supremacy for losing votes, what's the point of the party?
Obviously as a white british gay guy I'm not able to really understand the experiences of black men in the USA, but as an equivalent would we be okay with supporting left wing politicians who say homosexuality should be illegal, if doing so got us a senate seat in Alabama?
Joe is back on the Trump payroll. Couldn't fucking believe what I was hearing with his shit earlier, the dude has absolutely no spine and no principles whatsoever.
shinra-bansho
Member
The funny thing is, Heitkamp is actually the Democrat with the highest second dimension DW-Nominate score.
Really the main question to be asked at this point if that's going to be everyone's red line for WV is whether or not his constituency has a problem with Jeff sessions to begin with.
More_Badass
Member
Maybe Comey ain't that bad after all.This post was slept on in this thread today, and it seems the supposed Comey account changed to private and sent out its first tweet. Here's the content for those who don't have Twitter.
with a link to the FBI's job listing site lol
At least the guy has a sense of humor
nature boy
Member
Huh
Carpe Libertatem
Member
Michael Steele, former head of the RNC, was reported to tell some people this
Not Christopher Steele if that's who you were thinking
That's certainly something. Trump is something else. He's so going down.
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