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[sphagnum]

All former communist states have seen their GDP rocket skyward upon economic liberalization. That isn't an accident- it's because socialism and communism do not work. There is nothing disingenuous about pointing this out, or that using the plethora of historical anecdotes we have to come to the conclusion that pursuing these policies is to doom your populace to a life of relative poverty.

Yes, liberalizing previously authoritarian state socialist systems led to higher GDP (though they sometimes had to go through grueling periods to get there, like 90s Russia or the collapsing Balkans, and now have all sorts of other corruption problems to deal with). Now please show me how cooperatively owned workplaces inevitably lead to Stalin.

Where do I go to sub to your newsletter?

There's some literature in the trunk of my car that's really gonna change your life forever!

 

[Sibylus]

The Gish Galloping is doing you no favors, Kirblar.

Yes, liberalizing previously authoritarian state socialist systems led to higher GDP (though they sometimes had to go through grueling periods to get there, like 90s Russia or the collapsing Balkans, and now have all sorts of other corruption problems to deal with). Now please show me how cooperatively owned workplaces inevitably lead to Stalin.



There's some literature in the trunk of my car that's really gonna change your life forever!

You joke, but I am taking suggestions for serious historical reading.

 

[Crocodile]

I've been in a library for most of the day. How did the "Day without Women" protests do? Was it talked about in the news? Was the effect seen/felt around the country?

 

[Chichikov]

The big issue w/ Econ is that people who don't separate out their philosophy end up polluting the whole thing. (see: Socialists, Austrian School, Lassez-Faire advocates,etc.)

Humans as a whole are not terribly good at separating their biases and opinions from their conclusions, it's a problem in all fields, but fields under the auspices of the scientific method have a mechanism to control and correct those biases.
Economics don't really have it.
Not that there aren't economists who try to apply those tools, but the it's still a field that you can win a (not) Nobel Prize while rejecting the scientific method.

 

[kirblar]

The Gish Galloping is doing you no favors, Kirblar.

Uh....

The Gish Gallop (also known as proof by verbosity[1] and the Trump Tirade[2]) is the fallacious debate tactic of drowning your opponent in a flood of individually-weak arguments in order to prevent rebuttal of the whole argument collection without great effort.

How on earth is this even remotely supposed to describe my posting style? There is 1 argument: Communism/Socialism has failed and devolved into tyranny and poverty every time it has been attempted, and that it's not an accident that every other flavor of capitalist economy (including the crappy Lassez-Faire ones!) completely outclass it.

People are self-interested. Any system that fails to embrace it and instead fights against that impulse is going to fail.

 

[Sibylus]

Uh....

How on earth is this even remotely supposed to describe my posting style? There is 1 argument: Communism/Socialism has failed and devolved into tyranny and poverty every time it has been attempted, and that it's not an accident that every other flavor of capitalist economy (including the crappy Lassez-Faire ones!) completely outclass it.

You galloped off to talk of GDP rather than addressing sphagnum's points made in rebuttal. I'm just a bystander, but idk, I think there's an interesting discussion to be had there if both parties engage in good faith?

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I'm familiar with the comic, but it doesn't go far enough. It stops at "physics is applied math" but it needs to go one more step to "math is applied philosophy." Your time with STEM was with the worshippers; every science can and should answer the "why" and even ask whether it matters.

I mean, above we had the freezing point of water as a scientific fact. But why should we care? Why does H2O (define this) and its (define possession of a trait) freezing (define) point matter (also probably needs a definition)?

All of that is philosophy. Science is as cultural as anything else is. The entire field of graph theory exists because a genius happened to live in the same time and place as a popular local riddle for kids was around. I (as a math/engineering guy) talk up the social sciences precisely because they're no different than what I do; they're just less obtuse about how philosophical their fields are.

I'm actually not sure how we're coming to different conclusions! I think philosophy is really important and highly underrated by most people in society. I just think there's currently an easy to draw line between hard sciences with consistent behaviors that can be observed and social sciences which have less consistent but still important behaviors to note. It's possible that if everything in the universe is just one big clock and we're all just deterministic machines (an argument I'm actually open to, though the implications are scary) then the social sciences could eventually become hard sciences. I don't think this is true now though. I totally agree with your other points, though.

Humans as a whole are not terribly good at separating their biases and opinions from their conclusions, it's a problem in all fields, but fields under the auspices of the scientific method have a mechanism to control and correct those biases.
Economics don't really have it.
Not that there aren't economists who try to apply those tools, but the it's still a field that you can win a (not) Nobel Prize while rejecting the scientific method.

It sort of reminds me of discussing rational choice theory in my political psychology class. I can't remember where the paper we read talked about it but basically the people most likely to behave like economic models are economists.

 

[Chichikov]

I'm actually not sure how we're coming to different conclusions! I think philosophy is really important and highly underrated by most people in society. I just think there's currently an easy to draw line between hard sciences with consistent behaviors that can be observed and social sciences which have less consistent but still important behaviors to note. It's possible that if everything in the universe is just one big clock and we're all just deterministic machines (an argument I'm actually open to, though the implications are scary) then the social sciences could eventually become hard sciences. I don't think this is true now though. I totally agree with your other points, though.

You don't need determinism in order to have empiricism and peer review.

 

[Fenderputty]

The big issue w/ Econ is that people who don't separate out their philosophy end up polluting the whole thing. (see: Socialists, Austrian School, Lassez-Faire advocates,etc.)

Didn't you just insert your bias here? Lol

Laying out blanket claims like, "never worked before, will never work in the future" while ignoring any variables that could affect your claim is hilarious as well.

 

[KingK]

I'm actually not sure how we're coming to different conclusions! I think philosophy is really important and highly underrated by most people in society. I just think there's currently an easy to draw line between hard sciences with consistent behaviors that can be observed and social sciences which have less consistent but still important behaviors to note. It's possible that if everything in the universe is just one big clock and we're all just deterministic machines (an argument I'm actually open to, though the implications are scary) then the social sciences could eventually become hard sciences. I don't think this is true now though. I totally agree with your other points, though.

It sort of reminds me of discussing rational choice theory in my political psychology class. I can't remember where the paper we read talked about it but basically the people most likely to behave like economic models are economists.

Agreed.

Yeah, this is pretty much exactly how I was going to respond, but I'm on mobile and didn't want to type it all out lol.

 

[kirblar]

You galloped off to talk of GDP rather than addressing sphagnum's points made in rebuttal. I'm just a bystander, but idk, I think there's an interesting discussion to be had there if both parties engage in good faith?

Because I'm not interested in discussing alternate-reality historical fan-fic that serves only to fuel that fantasy that "it'll work this time!" GDP is how we measure economic output, and on that measure alone, these states failed to measure up to capitalistic systems.

Didn't you just insert your bias here? Lol

Laying out blanket claims like, "never worked before, will never work in the future" while ignoring any variables that could affect your claim is hilarious as well.

It's not bias when it's based on it blowing up in people's faces every time it's attempted. I would love it if a system like that could work. This isn't about my personal utopian preferences (you'd be surprised!) but about what I think is achievable in the real world based on all available evidence and history.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Didn't you just insert your bias here? Lol

Laying out blanket claims like, "never worked before, will never work in the future" while ignoring any variables that could affect your claim is hilarious as well.

Yeah it's hilarious. Like how do you not even notice that.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Yeah it's hilarious. Like how do you not even notice that.

It's not bias when I believe it!

 

[Sibylus]

Because I'm not interested in discussing alternate-reality historical fan-fic that serves only to fuel that fantasy that "it'll work this time!" GDP is how we measure economic output, and on that measure alone, these states failed to measure up to capitalistic systems.

It's not bias when it's based on it blowing up in people's faces every time it's attempted. I would love it if a system like that could work. This isn't about my personal utopian preferences (you'd be surprised!) but about what I think is achievable in the real world based on all available evidence and history.

...the same space that made the divine right of kings and mercantilism obsolete, and your preferred economic system possible?

 

[CygnusXS]

Also, capitalism definitely works and has never or will never collapse.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

People are frustrated with experts because we've delegated increasing amounts of authority to them while our life expectancy and incomes drop. Alan Greenspan was an expert. Dick Cheney was an expert. Experts told them that NAFTA would be a huge job creator in the US while certified crazy man Ross Perot said there would be a "huge sucking sound" of job loss. One of them was right about where the wealth would be going.

People feel like they have less control over their lives and less power in their democracy than they used to. Political power is increasingly consolidated into smaller and smaller groups of people while our lives are largely dictated by large corporations. As people lose agency, they're going to distrust the idea of placing more power into the same hands that got them there in the first place.

People are frustrated by idiots/people who are intellectually dishonest implementing policy and framing narratives on how society should tackle challenging problems. Many of their making. Think of the kind of mix you have at say the European Commission, the ECB, and the IMF. Then look at what they facilitated in Greece. Onr of deepest and prolonged contractions ever recorded.

There's simply too many people with credentials doing dumb things or being plain evil with zero shame. Eroding faith in institutions through continual incompetence.

Alternatively, think about the US where manufacturing has been hit hard, wages have stagnated, and economic mobility isn't where it needs to be. Health care is taking up too much GDP. College costs are out of control. The retirement system is a big fat joke. These are functions of policy and ideology with an intent to stack the deck. It hasn't always been this way and it's not an accident so many folks are losers.

It's not about control. It's about seeing incompetent people who utterly fail at what they do refusing to retreat, refusing to retract, and doing everything they can to avoid admitting mistakes. The folks who burn the house down think they should stick around and lead the clean up. We've entered a political climate where that can't fly. Thank the irreparable damage from the financial crisis for pushing dummies out and putting who's left in power on defense.

 

[Plinko]

Trump is going hard at trying to whip GOP House into voting for the bill.

 

[thefro]

Trump is going hard at trying to whip GOP House into voting for the bill.

Hillary should come out in support of the bill just to troll him.

 

[Crocodile]

People are frustrated by idiots/people who are intellectually dishonest implementing policy and framing narratives on how society should tackle challenging problems. Many of their making. Think of the kind of mix you have at say the European Commission, the ECB, and the IMF. Then look at what they facilitated in Greece. Onr of deepest and prolonged contractions ever recorded.

There's simply too many people with credentials doing dumb things or being plain evil with zero shame. Eroding faith in institutions through continual incompetence.

Alternatively, think about the US where manufacturing has been hit hard, wages have stagnated, and economic mobility isn't where it needs to be. Health care is taking up too much GDP. College costs are out of control. The retirement system is a big fat joke. These are functions of policy and ideology with an intent to stack the deck. It hasn't always been this way and it's not an accident so many folks are losers.

It's not about control. It's about seeing incompetent people who utterly fail at what they do refusing to retreat, refusing to retract, and doing everything they can to avoid admitting mistakes. The folks who burn the house down think they should stick around and lead the clean up. We've entered a political climate where that can't fly. Thank the irreparable damage from the financial crisis for pushing dummies out and putting who's left in power on defense.

I don't disagree with much of this but I think the issue is that most people seem to have a hard time discerning who exactly fucked up and who might actually be in a good place or have good ideas that could actually be implemented to move things into a better position. My frustration is that NOTHING Trump or the Republican party is offering will help with any of those issues. Voters who decided to throw a hail mary in frustration fucked over themselves and all of us

 

[metalslimer]

Trump is going hard at trying to whip GOP House into voting for the bill.

What, is he threatening to blast dissenters on twitter?

 

[Mike M]

What, is he threatening to blast dissenters on twitter?

That or some variation actually seems pretty likely.

 

[Plinko]

What, is he threatening to blast dissenters on twitter?

My guess is he is threatening to primary them.

 

[Vimes]

Perez and Ellison doing some kind of facebook live thing

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Perez and Ellison doing some kind of facebook live thing

These two are great.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

People are frustrated by idiots/people who are intellectually dishonest implementing policy and framing narratives on how society should tackle challenging problems. Many of their making. Think of the kind of mix you have at say the European Commission, the ECB, and the IMF. Then look at what they facilitated in Greece. Onr of deepest and prolonged contractions ever recorded.

There's simply too many people with credentials doing dumb things or being plain evil with zero shame. Eroding faith in institutions through continual incompetence.

Alternatively, think about the US where manufacturing has been hit hard, wages have stagnated, and economic mobility isn't where it needs to be. Health care is taking up too much GDP. College costs are out of control. The retirement system is a big fat joke. These are functions of policy and ideology with an intent to stack the deck. It hasn't always been this way and it's not an accident so many folks are losers.

It's not about control. It's about seeing incompetent people who utterly fail at what they do refusing to retreat, refusing to retract, and doing everything they can to avoid admitting mistakes. The folks who burn the house down think they should stick around and lead the clean up. We've entered a political climate where that can't fly. Thank the irreparable damage from the financial crisis for pushing dummies out and putting who's left in power on defense.

This only follows if we've had experts decide things. This entire comment is just saying "Earth is still getting hotter despite climate scientists doing stuff" while ignoring that elected officials don't do what the experts say they should. Yes, this also applies to the ACA, a bill that had expert suggestions refused for political reasons to secure passage.

When we actually have a technocratic government fuck up, I'll be more interested in these comments.

I'm actually not sure how we're coming to different conclusions! I think philosophy is really important and highly underrated by most people in society. I just think there's currently an easy to draw line between hard sciences with consistent behaviors that can be observed and social sciences which have less consistent but still important behaviors to note. It's possible that if everything in the universe is just one big clock and we're all just deterministic machines (an argument I'm actually open to, though the implications are scary) then the social sciences could eventually become hard sciences. I don't think this is true now though. I totally agree with your other points, though.

It sort of reminds me of discussing rational choice theory in my political psychology class. I can't remember where the paper we read talked about it but basically the people most likely to behave like economic models are economists.

I agree with everything here, but my original point was in response to people denying social science experts. My point is that there really isn't much difference (if any) between hard and soft science, so you can't really defend denial of one without saying it's okay to deny the other. Maybe with some exception to fields like psychology which are really less than a century old, but things like economics have been around awhile.

If I can sit here and tell you there are infinite prime numbers (even though I can't show them all to you, cuz infinite) and I get no doubts from people because of my theoretical proof, then you should be able to tell me things from your field with more credibility than a poet has.

 

[rjinaz]

These two are great.

Yeah actually they seem to make a great duo.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Yeah actually they seem to make a great duo.

They're both on the same page, which is great.

 

[Y2Kev]

I got a call from the DCCC

Which one of you is it

I should have asked how much Jason kander is the best. Then it would be obvious it's one of you.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I agree with everything here, but my original point was in response to people denying social science experts. My point is that there really isn't much difference (if any) between hard and soft science, so you can't really defend denial of one without saying it's okay to deny the other. Maybe with some exception to fields like psychology which are really less than a century old, but things like economics have been around awhile.

If I can sit here and tell you there are infinite prime numbers (even though I can't show them all to you, cuz infinite) and I get no doubts from people because of my theoretical proof, then you should be able to tell me things from your field with more credibility than a poet has.

I'd argue I do, because I sit here and talk about politics all day

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

This Democrats Live is pretty good. They're answering questions now.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

I got a call from the DCCC

Which one of you is it

I should have asked how much Jason kander is the best. Then it would be obvious it's one of you.

I will take this slander of Kander sitting down!

 

[Chumley]

Perez seems legit, someone remind me why people were fucking whinging about him when he won the position.

 

[Vestal]

Rachel Maddow again spitting fire.

 

[HanShotFirst]

Perez seems legit, someone remind me why people were fucking whinging about him when he won the position.

Not anointed by Bernie.

Both Perez and Ellison seem like great leaders for the DNC and are really good together.

 

[Plinko]

Rachel Maddow again spitting fire.

I need to start watching her. Never really did.

Perez seems legit, someone remind me why people were fucking whinging about him when he won the position.

You should have known he would be the moment Diamond Joe endorsed him.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

When are we getting Perez and Ellison bromance memes?

#VOTEFORADEMOCRAT

 

[Fenderputty]

Trump trying to whip the house votes up for this disaster is amazing. I bet he actually thinks prices are going to drop if he allows sales across state lines.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Sounds like they are going for a 50 States plan.

 

[Vimes]

Sounds like they are going for a 50 States plan.

Believe this was a talking point for both of them during the race. The co-chair choice seemed like a natural fit to me given they have the same agenda. (And now Ellison is still in the House.) Looks like they will be the power pair that many of us hoped.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Believe this was a talking point for both of them during the race. The co-chair choice seemed like a natural fit to me given they have the same agenda. (And now Ellison is still in the House.) Looks like they will be the power pair that many of us hoped.

Yep.

 

[Plinko]

Sounds like they are going for a 50 States plan.

Beautiful. Start crafting some candidates that actually fit each state.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Beautiful. Start crafting some candidates that actually fit each state.

They also said they are going to do the territories too.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Guys, Donald Trump is not smart.

https://twitter.com/Acosta/status/839665918754099200

Trump told Tea Party groups at WH if GOP health care plan dies, he will let Obamacare fail and let Dems take the blame, I'm told.

#BreakingNews

 

[Grizzle_Dat]

There's some literature in the trunk of my car that's really gonna change your life forever!

Hope that's not the Watchtower!

 

[Slizeezyc]

Guys, Donald Trump is not smart.

https://twitter.com/Acosta/status/839665918754099200



#BreakingNews

This makes no sense on multiple levels. So for Trump, it makes perfect sense. It actually makes sense on zero levels. He wants people to get fucked over, he gives the House an out when they don't want to pass this anyway, he doesn't realize the GOP controls all things and thus will get more blame in 2018. There's just no solid calculations being made here.

 

[kirblar]

Sounds like they are going for a 50 States plan.

Both of them + Pete were all-in on that.

Dean won in the end.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Trump is going hard at trying to whip GOP House into voting for the bill.

he's forcing them to commit political suicide because he's too stupid to realize it's a disastrous bill that will destroy them in 2018.

 

[sphagnum]

Hope that's not the Watchtower!

Are you ready to get into BA?

 

[Ogodei]

So Tim Kaine’s Son, Linwood Kaine, was arrested last Saturday in St. Paul, Minnesota.

Apparently he and others set off smoke and fireworks at a March 4 Trump rally.

That's probably not the best PR for my Senator.

Makes me more likely to vote for him. I've been kind of tepid on his lukewarm response to Trump.

 

[Piecake]

President Donald Trump's former national security adviser Michael Flynn wrote an op-ed on Election Day calling for the U.S. to kick out an anti-government Turkish cleric without disclosing he was being paid by a firm linked to the Turkish government, according to documents newly filed with the Justice Department.

Flynn's firm disclosed that it was lobbying for Inovo in September but did not register with the Justice Department as a foreign agent. Robert Kelner, a lawyer for Flynn's firm, wrote in a letter to the Justice Department on Tuesday that the firm believed at the time that the congressional disclosure was sufficient but is now registered retroactively as a foreign agent.

Flynn's op-ed, published in The Hill, argued the U.S. shouldn't provide "safe haven" to Gülen, whom Flynn compared to Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini. "We need to see the world from Turkey’s perspective," Flynn wrote. "What would we have done if right after 9/11 we heard the news that Osama bin Laden lives in a nice villa at a Turkish resort while running 160 charter schools funded by the Turkish taxpayers?"

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/michael-flynn-lobby-turkey-235843