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PoliGAF 2017 |OT2| Well, maybe McMaster isn't a traitor.

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Emerson

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
Wilsongt said:
You're getting too excited. Only Flynn and Stone will go down most likely.
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There's been an awful lot of talk about Page the last couple weeks, and if the reports of Page carrying an audio message from Trump are true that would take The Big Shitstain down as well.
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
I'll also be honest I'm torn on some level because looking at North Carolina and now Texas for example... it wasn't the economic populists who got McCrory out... it isn't really economic populists who are taking a stand against bathroom bills... It's major organizations like the NBA, the NFL, the NCAA...
 
smokeymicpot

smokeymicpot

Beat EviLore at pool.
excelsiorlef said:
I'll also be honest I'm torn on some level because looking at North Carolina and now Texas for example... it wasn't the economic populists who got McCrory out... it isn't really economic populists who are taking a stand against bathroom bills... It's major organizations like the NBA, the NFL, the NCAA...
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Just like Bill it was all about the money. Money talks. Them losing the NCAA tourney was huge.
 
K

KingK

Member
kirblar said:
Please explain how Dem policy positions have "abandoned" them.

And how it's not just "The GOP has dominated elections since LBJ."
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Whynotboth.gif

GOP started dominating elections and the Democrats responded with the Third Way, getting closer to business and distancing themselves from the poor.

Welfare reform is a good example, but also the fact that their general approach now always involves convoluted, means-tested, business friendly, free-market solutions to every problem. soul creator (I think that's his user name) has had a few great posts about that.
 
B

Box of Kittens

Banned
KingK said:
So, I agree with a lot of this, but I don't think it's just the white working class. Democrats have largely been abandoning the poor and working class in general in favor of the "middle class" and more affluent for a while now. Obviously the non-white working class won't be lured in by republican racism (nor is all of the WWC), but they can be discouraged from participating altogether. I don't think Sanders is the right messenger because I don't think he has as solid a grasp on the interconnectedness of race and class as I would like. But I think he's correct in pointing out that the Democratic party has a class problem that's been developing.
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I more or less agree with this. Sanders has valuable insights that the party needs to listen to. Members of the working class who would otherwise vote Democratic choosing to stay home is a problem and one the party needs to take seriously. At the same time his vision has a lot of limitations so it can't be seen as "the way forward" exactly so much as one piece of the puzzle.

I have found that in certain circles, which actually span from the left to the center, there is a notion that the key is to appeal to the white working class. I think it is absolutely vital that as a party the Democrats offer something positive for the working class, not just "we're not Republicans." What I think would be a mistake is targeting the message specifically to the white working class.
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
After making some puzzling remarks on Democrat Jon Ossoff, Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders gave him his full-throated endorsement on Friday.

“Let me be very clear. It is imperative that Jon Ossoff be elected congressman from Georgia’s 6th District and that Democrats take back the U.S. House,” said Sanders, a one-time presidential candidate, in a statement. “I applaud the energy and grassroots activism in Jon’s campaign. His victory would be an important step forward in fighting back against Trump’s reactionary agenda.”
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Great... why didn't you say that shit before people got mad at you....

Like this is all he had to say in the first place.

http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2017/04/21/bernie-sanders-on-jon-ossoff-its-imperative-he-be-elected/

That said it's a good statement...
 
K

kirblar

Member
excelsiorlef said:
I'll also be honest I'm torn on some level because looking at North Carolina and now Texas for example... it wasn't the economic populists who got McCrory out... it isn't really economic populists who are taking a stand against bathroom bills... It's major organizations like the NBA, the NFL, the NCAA...
Click to expand...
Yup. Someone pointed out a day or two ago that w/ increased polarization, businesses are caught in the middle. They have the ability to exert pressure on conservatives in places like Bill O'Reilly and on Fox News that liberals can't do directly.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
excelsiorlef said:
I'll also be honest I'm torn on some level because looking at North Carolina and now Texas for example... it wasn't the economic populists who got McCrory out... it isn't really economic populists who are taking a stand against bathroom bills... It's major organizations like the NBA, the NFL, the NCAA...
Click to expand...

In a more general sense I'm torn about the current "no big money ever" stance from some camps. On the one hand I think its certainly a noble sentiment, and I'd like to see it happen. On the other hand, I have seen zero receipts for how we mount this campaign to take back the local races with only grassroots funding. Like, I want to see the actual projections for how that works. We can't be upset that there's no money in the races and also upset about big money in politics unless we can demonstrate that we can be competitive without them, frankly
 
K

kirblar

Member
excelsiorlef said:
Great... why didn't you say that shit before people got mad at you....

Like this is all he had to say in the first place.

http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2017/04/21/bernie-sanders-on-jon-ossoff-its-imperative-he-be-elected/

That said it's a good statement...
Click to expand...
Bernie getting slapped by Tyrion and told to go make the right statement is definitely a win. If he's going to be in the position he's in, we can't afford to have him go pulling his primary campaign again where he keeps firing inward.
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
kirblar said:
Bernie getting slapped by Tyrion and told to go make the right statement is definitely a win. If he's going to be in the position he's in, we can't afford to have him go pulling his primary campaign again where he keeps firing inward.
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It's just frustrating because I do actually want to like him but Sanders constantly refuses to make the easy and obvious statement unless he's dragged to it. I mean I always just point back to the Planned Parenthood is the Establishment nonsense.

I really do think Barney Frank's statement from way back when is completely accurate: he's really good at alienates his natural allies.
 
D

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Associated Press

Gross, Trump all but endorses Marine Le Pen.

President Donald Trump says he believes Thursday's attack in Paris will "probably help" far-right candidate Marine Le Pen in France's upcoming election.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Trump says he is not explicitly endorsing Le Pen. But he says he believes she will be helped by the attack that left a Paris police officer dead, because she's the candidate who is "strongest on borders, and she's the strongest on what's been going on in France."

France's anti-terrorism prosecutor said Friday the gunman had a note with him defending the Islamic State group.

Trump says he believes the attack will impact how the French people vote in Sunday's first round of voting in the presidential election. He says he's not worried about emboldening terrorists by saying an attack can have an impact on a democratic election.
Click to expand...
 
B

Box of Kittens

Banned
The way I see it, Bernie said something kind of dumb. People complained. He walked it back and put out a good statement in support of Ossoff. The complaining worked. Everybody can move on now.
 
H

Hindl

Member
Box of Kittens said:
The way I see it, Bernie said something kind of dumb. People complained. He walked it back and put out a good statement in support of Ossoff. The complaining worked. Everybody can move on now.
Click to expand...

Agreed, it's just concerning that he has such a case of foot-in-mouth. If he's going to be a player in the Democratic Party moving forward, he has to be more thoughtful before speaking, and I'm not sure he'll get better
 
T

teiresias

Member
Box of Kittens said:
The way I see it, Bernie said something kind of dumb. People complained. He walked it back and put out a good statement in support of Ossoff. The complaining worked. Everybody can move on now.
Click to expand...

Were Clinton to do the same she'd be called a pandering liar who didn't actually believe her new position by Bernie supporters.
 
P

Pixieking

Banned
Is it actually possible to play both sides of the outsider/establishment coin and not appear two-faced or incompetent occasionally? That is, can you be diplomatic, thoughtful, and against career politicians? Sanders seems to be "true" to his principals as an outsider Independent, and routinely cocks-up the more naturally political statements - the anti-Obama or anti-Hillary in a way.
 
S

Sirpopopop

Member
Box of Kittens said:
I more or less agree with this. Sanders has valuable insights that the party needs to listen to. Members of the working class who would otherwise vote Democratic choosing to stay home is a problem and one the party needs to take seriously. At the same time his vision has a lot of limitations so it can't be seen as "the way forward" exactly so much as one piece of the puzzle.

I have found that in certain circles, which actually span from the left to the center, there is a notion that the key is to appeal to the white working class. I think it is absolutely vital that as a party the Democrats offer something positive for the working class, not just "we're not Republicans." What I think would be a mistake is targeting the message specifically to the white working class.
Click to expand...

We did offer something to the working class.

Higher Minimum Wage.
Plan to revitalize coal country.
An infrastructure plan.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Pixieking said:
Is it actually possible to play both sides of the outsider/establishment coin and not appear two-faced or incompetent occasionally? That is, can you be diplomatic, thoughtful, and against career politicians? Sanders seems to be "true" to his principals as an outsider Independent, and routinely cocks-up the more naturally political statements - the anti-Obama or anti-Hillary in a way.
Click to expand...
Bernie's a 70+y career politician. The "outsider" card is really about "are you new to me".

Obama got to play it despite not being an outsider at all. It's why I think we have to keep putting out young D candidates.
 
O

Ogodei

Member
kirblar said:
Bernie's a 70+y career politician. The "outsider" card is really about "are you new to me".

Obama got to play it despite not being an outsider at all. It's why I think we have to keep putting out young D candidates.
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I'm pretty sure Bernie's never had a job outside of being a politician.
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
Bonen no Max'd said:
Mensch only should be referred to when people are laughing at her. Why are we posting conspiracy theorists in here?
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Louise Mensch at all times:

0414c85aa9118a20aa5d99faa629fb24.jpg
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
excelsiorlef said:
It's just frustrating because I do actually want to like him but Sanders constantly refuses to make the easy and obvious statement unless he's dragged to it. I mean I always just point back to the Planned Parenthood is the Establishment nonsense.

I really do think Barney Frank's statement from way back when is completely accurate: he's really good at alienates his natural allies.
Click to expand...

The Planned Parenthood comment was when he lost me.

As far as all the ire, it's because Bernie has an audience and he doesn't use it responsibly. It's completely earned on his part.
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Box of Kittens said:
The way I see it, Bernie said something kind of dumb. People complained. He walked it back and put out a good statement in support of Ossoff. The complaining worked. Everybody can move on now.
Click to expand...

This if fair. But it's very close to becoming a pattern, if not already, that he is not learning to correct.
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
whyamihere said:
I'm glad he walked it back. Also, this is a really good statement.
Click to expand...

Yeah much better comment.

Pixieking said:
Is it actually possible to play both sides of the outsider/establishment coin and not appear two-faced or incompetent occasionally? That is, can you be diplomatic, thoughtful, and against career politicians? Sanders seems to be "true" to his principals as an outsider Independent, and routinely cocks-up the more naturally political statements - the anti-Obama or anti-Hillary in a way.
Click to expand...

You have to be intellectually curious, which most populists aren't (as they're in search of a simple message and solution). If you forced Sanders to sit down and read nothing but papers about various situations that he clearly had no interest in, I would've been tempted to vote for him in the primary (or at least that negative would've gone away).

The trick is that the establishment isn't a cabal of evil Scrooges out for blood; they're just in favor of the status quo and are therefore going to want good assurances that your new system (whatever it is) is actually definitely going to be at least as good as the current one. That requires good answers to tough questions, which populists frequently don't have. I absolutely think you can bridge the gap.
 
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