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PoliGAF 2017 |OT4| The leaks are coming from inside the white house

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S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
I have a question about these numbers. Do they take into consideration people moving onto cheaper, less robust plans? Or is it just the number of people that will be kicked off their insurance right now, even if they can find different insurance in the future.
 
smokeymicpot

smokeymicpot

Beat EviLore at pool.
DDRhGAoUIAAmdzQ.jpg


https://twitter.com/frankthorp/status/879434588770234368
 
J

JWiLL

Banned
Paches said:
So you don't believe Russia tried to influence the election?
Click to expand...

I don't believe that Trump won over middle America because of Russia. I believe he won it because one candidate didn't spend enough time there, while the other spent the majority of his time pandering to them at rallies.

He lied through his teeth at the rallies, but they were effective.

RumbleHumble said:
Yo dawg, what about that statement says: "oho! Look at how hysterical they are!"
Click to expand...

"Act of War".

I mean...sure, why not.
 
B

Beer Monkey

Member
JWiLL said:
Right because everything surrounding the investigation has been kept tight, with no leaks.
Click to expand...

What has leaked is going to be viewed as the tip of the iceberg, friend.

Mueller would not be hiring a dozen prosecutors who took down the mafia, Nixon, and Enron if the only evidence they had is what has leaked out.

Use your head.
 
A

Autodidact

Banned
JWiLL said:
I don't believe that Trump won over middle America because of Russia. I believe he won it because one candidate didn't spend enough time there, while the other spent the majority of his time pandering to them at rallies.

He lied through his teeth at the rallies, but they were effective.
Click to expand...

You avoided the question, so I'll ask more directly. Do you believe that Russia spread propaganda and disinformation to influence the public's views, and do you believe the intelligence community's reports that they attempted to access the voter rolls?
 
R

RumbleHumble

Banned
JWiLL said:
I don't believe that Trump won over middle America because of Russia. I believe he won it because one candidate didn't spend enough time there, while the other spent the majority of his time pandering to them at rallies.

He lied through his teeth at the rallies, but they were effective.
Click to expand...

Good job answering his question. Why is it so hard to just say "yes" and then let everyone think differently of you?
 
W

witchedwiz

Member
Thaedolus said:
America was victimized by an act of war by a hostile foreign power that misinformed large sections of the populous about our elections. Our allies should be (and are) rendering aid to help mitigate the damage. Why isn't this a huge story in your mind?
Click to expand...
Do we have factual evidence that the vote were actually tampered, the amount and all?
I don't like another country meddling in the elections , and I think it's ground for some serious reparation talk, but I'd like to know with factual certainty that
1) was commissioned by Putin or someone close to Putin
2) they actually altered and they did not just "try"
3) factual link between this and trump.. because if someone made this in order to facilitate trump without his knowledge, as trump is a weak and malleable president, it's not a scandal to trump per se, but rather an external country meddling with inner politics..

It's bad as it is for the relation between Russia and America, but if they actually ALTERED the outcome, then it's a whole other matter..
Trump is an idiot, but if he's a legally elected idiot, there's no point in crying..
If the result was altered , then a new election is a given, but unless trump factually knows it, he can just be made to step down from potus position, nothing more..
If the result wasn't altered you get to keep trump and hope he WILL recognize that Russia has some answering to do..
 
T

tedrotheredro

Member
JWiLL said:
If there was anything tangible at this point, we'd all know about it.

The prime target surrounding the collusion narrative has been Michael Flynn, but at this point we know that his conversations with the ambassador (that people on both sides had, since...you know, it's his job) didn't amount to any actual collusion and he was cleared. Even the Washington Post admits this and they're not exactly unbiased:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-reviewed-flynns-calls-with-russian-ambassador-but-found-nothing-illicit/2017/01/23/aa83879a-e1ae-11e6-a547-5fb9411d332c_story.html?utm_term=.82e90b77f7eb

Basically, the entire investigation is based around people talking to someone who's Russian, at some point, about anything. That's all we've heard since the initial Flynn angle. Yet there's no smoking gun after 8 months and they won't find one 12 months from now either.

The Watergate investigation may have taken 2 years, but that was over 30 years ago. Information moves a hell of a lot faster now.

Again - I'm not American, I'm not "on the right", I don't have a dog in any fight here. From an outsider's perspective, the entire thing has become fucking hilarious to an extent, with CNN's constant "BREAKING NEWS" about Russia, but the longer it drags on the more damage it causes - and I don't mean to Trump. The Democratic party is dying and instead of trying to pull itself together it's dragging along with this entire narrative. I really don't understand the point in continuing in this direction, he's not getting impeached. That's a pipedream.
Click to expand...

Okay, I'll bite.

Have you heard Flynn say anything since he was fired? Someone on the house intel committee says there is a lot of evidence pointing to him working with the feds. What bigger fish is there to fry than the National Security Adviser?

Also remember that Flynn likely knew the calls would be recorded. We knew this from Day 1. He has an intelligence background, and he's speaking to a foreign ambassador. Why would he talk about the collusion directly on an insecure line likely to be tapped? It's more likely he tried to calm the Russians after the sanctions were announced, saying that they'll go easy after the inauguration, but not mentioning anything "illegal" that may have happened beforehand. By the way, why haven't we seen the transcripts?

The smoking gun likely won't be a taped conversation admitting collusion, but they WILL follow the money. That's where the "smoking gun" will come from if the dossier is to be believed. The Rosneft deal went through, was anyone in Trump's orbit paid for it? Does Donald have a ton of undisclosed Russian loans? Does Russia have kompromat they're holding over Trump? Did republicans change their Ukraine platform based on pressure from Russia/Trump?

I mean, we basically know there's collusion right now. Roger Stone knew about Podesta e-mails before they were released because he admits to talking directly with Wikileaks. Trump asked on national TV for Russia to release the e-mails. So that's what the Trump campaign wanted from Russia. On the flip side, Russia wanted to demoralize democracy (it's rigged!), Trump to win, and sanctions to be removed (they're trying their best, and if the firestorm hadn't started, we all know they'd be removed by now). So we know all of that is true, but how much more is there we don't know behind the scenes?

Let the investigators work and Mueller can make the final say. These investigations are SUPPOSED to be highly classified until they make their move. But I'm not sure why you're laughing about it like a farce when we have a president who fired an FBI director for investigating his campaign and is under investigation by a special counsel.

Also, you think this will kill the democrat party, focusing on Russia? Nobody likes Russia, they're more unpopular than our president, who is already at 36% approval. Everyone loves conspiracy. Ratings for Colbert and Maddow are off the charts. I say stick with it whether it's true or not.
 
broz0rs

broz0rs

Member
CBO states Senate health care bill would cut Medicaid by $772 billion over 10 years

All those pub senators and Baghdadi Tom last week saying there would be no cuts to Medicaid lol
 
R

RumbleHumble

Banned
JWiLL said:
I don't believe that Trump won over middle America because of Russia. I believe he won it because one candidate didn't spend enough time there, while the other spent the majority of his time pandering to them at rallies.

He lied through his teeth at the rallies, but they were effective.



"Act of War".

I mean...sure, why not.
Click to expand...

Ok, so a country that's had a long history of aggression against the US on a global scale attempts to disrupt it's ability to govern through illegal means. The only thing missing from the traditional "act of war" definition is violence.

But why should you be worried about whether it's an act of war? You dodged whether you thought Russia was even involved.
 
F

Futurevoid

Member
witchedwiz said:
Do we have factual evidence that the vote were actually tampered, the amount and all?
I don't like another country meddling in the elections , and I think it's ground for some serious reparation talk, but I'd like to know with factual certainty that
1) was commissioned by Putin or someone close to Putin
Click to expand...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...utin-election-hacking/?utm_term=.acfc10a0b3ed

Early last August, an envelope with extraordinary handling restrictions arrived at the White House. Sent by courier from the CIA, it carried ”eyes only" instructions that its contents be shown to just four people: President Barack Obama and three senior aides.

Inside was an intelligence bombshell, a report drawn from sourcing deep inside the Russian government that detailed Russian President Vladi­mir Putin's direct involvement in a cyber campaign to disrupt and discredit the U.S. presidential race.

But it went further. The intelligence captured Putin's specific instructions on the operation's audacious objectives — defeat or at least damage the Democratic nominee, Hillary Clinton, and help elect her opponent, Donald Trump.
Click to expand...

witchedwiz said:
Do we have factual evidence that the vote were actually tampered, the amount and all?
2) they actually altered and they did not just "try"
Click to expand...
It has been repeated often by some of the key officials involved that votes were not tampered with or changed. In most cases under sworn testimony. Most recently by former Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/21/dnc-no-help-homeland-security-hacks-239800

Johnson added that to his knowledge, Russia's cyber attacks did not result in any actual votes being tampered with or changed.
Click to expand...

A recent Intel Committee hearing brought in a number of folks from the FBI, Homeland and Justice who testified that votes were not tampered with and it would be nearly impossible to do so due to the decentralized nature of how vote tabulation is carried out.

witchedwiz said:
3) factual link between this and trump.. because if someone made this in order to facilitate trump without his knowledge, as trump is a weak and malleable president, it's not a scandal to trump per se, but rather an external country meddling with inner politics..
Click to expand...
This is why we have a special counsel investigating that very thing, no? We do not have leaked confirmed evidence that said collusion took place. We have plenty of smoke but the fire has not been uncovered. Add in a separate obstruction investigation to the mix just to make it more fun.
 
K

Kusagari

Member
Joshua Holland @JoshuaHol
·
4m

Per CBO, 4 million people would lose *employer-provided* coverage next year under BCRA.

Holy shit
 
A

Autodidact

Banned
Jesus fucking Christ.

They can't possibly pass this bill. Not because they actually have consciences, but because it would be electoral suicide. 15 million people in a year? Nightly stories of preventable deaths? 4 million middle-class people losing employer-sponsored insurance?

I simply can't believe it.
 
S

smokeandmirrors

Banned
that 4 million might end up including my small company, right after I'm supposed to jump on that plan after leaving my parents' plan....

better stock up on my depression meds!
 
J

JWiLL

Banned
RumbleHumble said:
Good job answering his question. Why is it so hard to just say "yes" and then let everyone think differently of you?
Click to expand...

Autodidact said:
You avoided the question, so I'll ask more directly. Do you believe that Russia spread propaganda and disinformation to influence the public's views, and do you believe the intelligence community's reports that they attempted to access the voter rolls?
Click to expand...

Of course they tried to influence the election...that's not my point at all. I haven't once disputed that in this thread...my initial post disputed collusion with Trump, not Russian meddling in the election.

I just don't believe that Trump won the election because of "Russian meddling". He won because Hillary Clinton was a terrible candidate that forgot about half the country, while Trump was pandering to them.

You had the option between shit and shittier during the election, and shittier won because he bullshitted better in the right places. Not because Russian propaganda brainwashed them.

I like how I can't disagree with anyone here without being called "alt-right' while I'm a Liberal voting Canadian. Fantastic.

I'd just love to see the Democratic party focused on finding a great candidate for 2020 instead of trying to get Trump impeached. Seems like a waste of resources.
 
R

RumbleHumble

Banned
JWiLL said:
Of course they tried to influence the election...that's not my point at all. I haven't once disputed that in this thread...my initial post disputed collusion with Trump, not Russian meddling in the election.

I just don't believe that Trump won the election because of "Russian meddling". He won because Hillary Clinton was a terrible candidate that forgot about half the country, while Trump was pandering to them.

You had the option between shit and shittier during the election, and shittier won because he bullshitted better in the right places. Not because Russian propaganda brainwashed them.

I like how I can't disagree with anyone here without being called "alt-right' while I'm a Liberal voting Canadian. Fantastic.

I'd just love to see the Democratic party focused on finding a great candidate for 2020 instead of trying to get Trump impeached. Seems like a waste of resources.
Click to expand...

Fair point. It's a heated time. Apologies for getting so hostile.
 
K

Kusagari

Member
I have zero faith in the far right wacko's but I'm going to love seeing the Moderate Darlings spin if they vote for this.

One of Heller, Collins or Murkowski is going to break.
 
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