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[mckmas8808]

Only if you ignore the second part of his statement.

What was the second part?

 

[APF]

how does saying the flag pin represents fake post-9/11 patriotism attack those who wear it?

First off, neither the flag nor a flag pin represents fake patriotism, but if you believe--like Obama--it does represent fake patriotism, then in fact you are questioning the patriotism of people who wear such a pin.


I'm not sure how you can argue that I'm interpreting his words too narrow when I was attacked repeatedly for daring to contradict the idea that President Clinton not mentioning Obama in a sentence was some sort of horrible attack.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

First off, neither the flag nor a flag pin represents fake patriotism, but if you believe--like Obama--it does represent fake patriotism, then in fact you are questioning the patriotism of people who wear such a pin.

he wanted to wear one until he saw 'MADE IN CHINA'

:runs:

 

[tanod]

First off, neither the flag nor a flag pin represents fake patriotism, but if you believe--like Obama--it does represent fake patriotism, then in fact you are questioning the patriotism of people who wear such a pin.

The pins weren't a symbol of fake patriotism. They were a symbol of self-righteous litmus test hyprocisy.

 

[mckmas8808]

Again what was the second part of Obama's point when talking about the pin?

 

[ralexand]

http://www.patrickruffini.com/2008/03/24/1m-donations-to-obama-in-march/

I don't get it. They say its a glitch but they say the numbers are accurate?

 

[Dahellisdat]

First off, neither the flag nor a flag pin represents fake patriotism, but if you believe--like Obama--it does represent fake patriotism, then in fact you are questioning the patriotism of people who wear such a pin.


I'm not sure how you can argue that I'm interpreting his words too narrow when I was attacked repeatedly for daring to contradict the idea that President Clinton not mentioning Obama in a sentence was some sort of horrible attack.

The point is that that patriotism has nothing to do with wearing a fucking pin

 

[electricpirate]

First off, neither the flag nor a flag pin represents fake patriotism, but if you believe--like Obama--it does represent fake patriotism, then in fact you are questioning the patriotism of people who wear such a pin.


I'm not sure how you can argue that I'm interpreting his words too narrow when I was attacked repeatedly for daring to contradict the idea that President Clinton not mentioning Obama in a sentence was some sort of horrible attack.

I have no clue what you are talking about, so yea, you've got the wrong interpretation. Both from the quote itself and the subsequent statements on the quote.

“My attitude is that I’m less concerned about what you’re wearing on your lapel than what’s in your heart. And you show your patriotism by how you treat your fellow Americans, especially those who served. You show your patriotism by being true to our values and our ideals and that’s what we have to lead with is our values and our ideals.”

But go ahead, keep on erecting and knocking down that dummy.

edit: Dahellisdat, APF and obama are saying the same thing, APF is just hilarious.

 

[bob_arctor]

Word.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Just think of the lapel pins as a loyalty oath you wear on your chest.

 

[Farmboy]

First off, neither the flag nor a flag pin represents fake patriotism, but if you believe--like Obama--it does represent fake patriotism, then in fact you are questioning the patriotism of people who wear such a pin.

That doesn't follow at all. At best, you might argue that you are questioning the way they are expressing their patriotism. You cannot automatically be said to be questioning the patriotism itself. Besides this, it is perfectly reasonable for Obama to stop wearing the pin and I don't think the reasons he gave for doing so constitute an attack on those who do choose to continue to wear such pins. You may very well find the reasons he gave bullshit; I don't find them too convincing myself (although there are many other reasons for not wearing the pin that I find perfectly legitimate), but reading into them a condemnation of (the patriotism of) those who are still wearing pins is frankly a bit of a stretch.

 

[APF]

The pins weren't a symbol of fake patriotism. They were a symbol of self-righteous litmus test hyprocisy.

I disagree. While I don't wear such a pin, I'm not going to attack the people who do--like the people in the pictures I posted this morning--as being "fake" patriots, or as being self-righteous hypocrites, like you're suggesting here.


Farmboy: I would agree with the distinction you draw in the first part of your response if he weren't actually talking about them in terms of "replacing" feelings of patriotism, and that was my point when the story first came to light: he could have just said, hey that's not for me but if you want to wear one that's cool. He didn't though; he took it as an opportunity to slam people who wanted to represent their country like that, which is certainly a lot more disgusting than not saying something about someone, which is how this relates to recent events.

 

[thekad]

I disagree. While I don't wear such a pin, I'm not going to attack the people who do--like the people in the pictures I posted this morning--as being "fake" patriots, or as being self-righteous hypocrites, like you're suggesting here.

What are you reading?

 

[GhaleonEB]

What are you reading?

Nothing. Obama was very specific in the reasons he decided to stop wearing the pin. APF is ignoring the quotes provided to make up a reason of his own.

 

[bob_arctor]

I disagree. While I don't wear such a pin, I'm not going to attack the people who do--like the people in the pictures I posted this morning--as being "fake" patriots, or as being self-righteous hypocrites, like you're suggesting here.

He's not saying that of you. He's referring to the people who would get offended about Obama not wearing one. They are the ones with the "self-righteous litmus test".

 

[tanod]

He's not saying that of you. He's referring to the people who would get offended about Obama not wearing one. They are the ones with the "self-righteous litmus test".

exactly

 

[electricpirate]

Man these arguments are like a mirror of the daily conference calls, the same thing over and over, just more and more tired each time.

 

[APF]

He's not saying that of you. He's referring to the people who would get offended about Obama not wearing one. They are the ones with the "self-righteous litmus test".

I agree, although I'd be milder in my condemnation. It's a silly thing to be upset about, but AFAIK it was an innocent question asked to him by a reporter, and his overwrought response was what offended people.

 

[Tom_Cody]

The point is that that patriotism has nothing to do with wearing a fucking pin

Simple dictionary definition of patriotism: n. Love of and devotion to one's country.

I have never understood how this issue has become so corrupted. Wearing an American flag pin certainly is a gesture of love and devotion to America. I don't understand how anyone could argue with this. At the same time though, there is absolutely nothing unpatriotic about not wearing a silly pin.

If a man brings his wife flowers, this could certainly be called a gesture of love and devotion. If a man does not bring his wife flowers that does not mean he does not love his wife.

Wearing an American flag pin is an act of patriotism (albeit superficial). If you disagree you are simply wrong.

 

[v1cious]

ok maybe i'm wrong, but didn't you vote for Obama, APF?

 

[maximum360]

While do you all continue to argue with APF? He sticks his hand into the Obama hate bag every day and pulls out another reason to dislike him. Today it's about flag pins, tomorrow it'll be about why he doesn't stand at full attention with his hand over his heart and tears in his eyes during the national anthem.

 

[APF]

Simple dictionary definition of patriotism: n. Love of and devotion to one's country.

I have never understood how this issue has become so corrupted. Wearing an American flag pin certainly is a gesture of love and devotion to America. I don't understand how anyone could argue with this. At the same time though, there is absolutely nothing unpatriotic about not wearing a silly pin.

If a man brings his wife flowers, this could certainly be called a gesture of love and devotion. If a man does not bring his wife flowers that does not mean he does not love his wife.

Wearing an American flag pin is an act of patriotism (albeit superficial). If you disagree you are simply wrong.

I think this has it right. Note that the self-righteous one here was Obama, trying to cast himself as holier-than-thou for not wearing something he later said he lost; the whole thing was a colossal, self-made blunder that never would have gone anywhere if he didn't need to blab on and on about how cool he is.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

SEIU TO FOCUS ON OBAMA GROUND GAME

PHILADELPHIA, Pa. -- SEIU leaders said they are planning on focusing on “member-to-member” contacts throughout Pennsylvania, choosing not to air advertisements for Obama at this time.

“We think in Pennsylvania, the more workers can talk to workers, the more influential we can be,” said Anna Burger, SEIU Secretary-Treasurer, in a conference call with reporters Monday.

There are more than 75,000 SEIU members in the Keystone State, and the union is setting up eight sites across Pennsylvania.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/03/24/801630.aspx

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

The most painful thing for them is probably the shooting themselves in the foot by not running in 2004

Spoiler

or dropping out after Obama's last two wins

when they had the chance.

They were probably hoping that they would smear Obama so much that Obama would flip out and begin viciously attacking Hillary and then the tides would turn towards Clinton as she scoops up enough delegates and superdelegates for a victory.

Fortunately, Obama seems to be handling things well on his own, which makes Clinton look even worse.

I disagree though. Hillary's time was 2008 (or whenever Kerry was out of office) and now, she has ruined her chances forever. All those years of planning, scheming, racking up enough corporate support, and it is all for naught.

 

[Dahellisdat]

Simple dictionary definition of patriotism: n. Love of and devotion to one's country.

I have never understood how this issue has become so corrupted. Wearing an American flag pin certainly is a gesture of love and devotion to America. I don't understand how anyone could argue with this. At the same time though, there is absolutely nothing unpatriotic about not wearing a silly pin.

If a man brings his wife flowers, this could certainly be called a gesture of love and devotion. If a man does not bring his wife flowers that does not mean he does not love his wife.

Wearing an American flag pin is an act of patriotism (albeit superficial). If you disagree you are simply wrong.

I think this has it right. Note that the self-righteous one here was Obama, trying to cast himself as holier-than-thou for not wearing something he later said he lost; the whole thing was a colossal, self-made blunder that never would have gone anywhere if he didn't need to blab on and on about how cool he is.

You're jumping to some pretty far out conclusions. I believe what hes trying to make clear is that patriotism isn't something that you can go out and buy for $1.99 at a drug store check-out line. If you wan't to be patriotic, do something more than wear a pin as a safety badge to cover your ass when someone calls you out on it. Sure a man can go buy his wife flowers as a sign of love but if he simply does it consistently to cover up the fact that his other actions in the relationship are disingenuous, then it means nothing. I believe what Obama is trying to say is that he is challenging everybody else to display patriotism through actions rather than symbolism.

 

[thefro]

Clinton's Bosnia lie starting to blow up a bit... on CNN, MSNBC and stuff on the CBS/ABC/NYT/WaPo sites on it. Drudge too (albeit low on the page).

Edit: Just went out over the AP too.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080324/ap_on_el_pr/clinton_bosnia_1

 

[APF]

Dahellisdat: while I agree with some of what you say, I think you're being too charitable towards Obama here. He could easily have just said something like you said--that patriotism isn't something you buy in a store--but instead he decided to play himself against people who chose to wear symbols of their country close to their heart, by saying those pins were a "replacement" for "true patriotism." That goes further than a simple rhetorical statement about whether or not patriotism is a commodity you can buy sell or trade; it's a direct attack against the patriotism of people who choose a different fashion path than him. And again, this interpretation is a lot more concrete and obvious than saying you're questioning someone's patriotism by not talking about them.

 

[Farmboy]

Farmboy: I would agree with the distinction you draw in the first part of your response if he weren't actually talking about them in terms of "replacing" feelings of patriotism, and that was my point when the story first came to light: he could have just said, hey that's not for me but if you want to wear one that's cool. He didn't though; he took it as an opportunity to slam people who wanted to represent their country like that, which is certainly a lot more disgusting than not saying something about someone, which is how this relates to recent events.

Well, I completely agree that Obama's response was overwrought. I'm an Obama supporter myself, but that comment made me cringe -- it seemed like pure grandstanding. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that Obama slammed those who opted to wear the pin. I still took it as that being his purely personal reasoning, even though his wording leaned towards the dismissive.

As for Bill Clinton's comments, there's no doubt they're being blown way out of proportion and widely misinterpreted. However, the Clinton's recent campaign strategy is at least partly to blame: drawing positive parallels between HRC and McCain which exclude Obama. It is at least somewhat reasonable to interpret Bill's remarks as an extension of that line of reasoning which the campaign has been following. Especially since those tactics in and of themself are so harmful to the party's chances in November. HRC has a right to keep running for president, but as I've said before, she should have taken the Huckabee route: focusing her attacks on John McCain, instead of arguing that he's so awesome that Obama can't beat him.

 

[XxenobladerxX]

CNN just got a news update saying that Puero Rico will be a primary.

 

[reilo]

CNN just got a news update saying that Puero Rico will be a primary.

Hillary's firewall.

 

[Slurpy]

I agree, although I'd be milder in my condemnation. It's a silly thing to be upset about, but AFAIK it was an innocent question asked to him by a reporter, and his overwrought response was what offended people.

A question about why he isn't wearing a pin is completely innocent? Really? That he has to actually justify himself for not wearing a pin? It's one of the silliest questions and the silliest issues in existence, and Obama has simply called those who ask him to justify is lack of wearing one out on that.

And show us a fucking quote where Obama calls those who wear pins 'fake patriots'. You know, you've only said it a hundred times, yet have been unable to even attempt to produce anything even after being repeatedly being asked, instead misrepresenting and putting words in the mouths of others, as your substitute for stating the facts and making a point. It's why everyone on this forum sees you as a baiting joke, except yourself apparently.

 

[APF]

In a television interview on Wednesday, Mr. Obama was asked why he wasn’t wearing an American flag on his suit. “Is this a fashion statement?

that became a substitute for, I think, true patriotism

.

 

[Tom_Cody]

You're jumping to some pretty far out conclusions. I believe what hes trying to make clear is that patriotism isn't something that you can go out and buy for $1.99 at a drug store check-out line. If you wan't to be patriotic, do something more than wear a pin as a safety badge to cover your ass when someone calls you out on it. Sure a man can go buy his wife flowers as a sign of love but if he simply does it consistently to cover up the fact that his other actions in the relationship are disingenuous, then it means nothing. I believe what Obama is trying to say is that he is challenging everybody else to display patriotism through actions rather than symbolism.

The truth is that right after 9-11 I had a pin. Shortly after 9-11, particularly because as we're talking about the Iraq war, that became a substitute for I think true patriotism, which is speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security. I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest. Instead, I'm going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great, and hopefully that will be a testament to my patriotism.

There is certainly merit to your post, but what you wrote does not address my complaint with what he actually said.

As I pointed out in my previous post, wearing an American flag pin is an act of patriotism. This is directly true by dictionary definition. The person wearing the pin could be a traitor, but wearing a pin is still on a fundamental level an act of patriotism.

My annoyance is with Obama's self-defined version patriotism: "speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security". Patriotism can be represented in thousands of different forms. Certainly "speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security" could be considered patriotic, but that does not dismiss any of the thousands of other possible patriotic gestures.

I'm sure you could go on to argue that he meant something different from what I quoted, but those are his words and they are worth criticizing. Really though, this is a stupid issue that will have no bearing on who I vote for this fall. I feel bad for continuing this discussion.

 

[Tamanon]

"that became a substitute for, I think, true patriotism"

And show the quote where he says that people who wear those pins are fake patriots.

 

[KarishBHR]

Word.

http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/The_McBush_2008_Campaign_Sign

Digg it/Help me promote my new blog

 

[APF]

And show the quote where he says that people who wear those pins are fake patriots.

tanod said "fake" patriots.

 

[belvedere]

Text

So basically, those with "Support our troops" ribbon magnets on their cars are just as involved patriotically, as the U.S. troops themselves?

 

[mckmas8808]

WHERE IS THE OBAMA COMMENT ABOUT HIM CRAPPY ON LAPEL PIN WEARERS?!


Please why hasn't nobody posted the comment yet?

 

[APF]

As for Bill Clinton's comments, there's no doubt they're being blown way out of proportion and widely misinterpreted. However, the Clinton's recent campaign strategy is at least partly to blame: drawing positive parallels between HRC and McCain which exclude Obama. It is at least somewhat reasonable to interpret Bill's remarks as an extension of that line of reasoning which the campaign has been following. Especially since those tactics in and of themself are so harmful to the party's chances in November. HRC has a right to keep running for president, but as I've said before, she should have taken the Huckabee route: focusing her attacks on John McCain, instead of arguing that he's so awesome that Obama can't beat him.

I think they'd say their argument is more, we want to underscore the fact that McCain has certain strengths we feel are our own strengths as well, and this competitiveness makes us more electable in the GE. And they can also point to recent polls that have Hillary faring better than Obama as suggesting the more the general electorate learn about Obama, the more skeptical they are about him as CiC; this has been the Hillary argument in a nutshell for a while: hey you know me already, so this can be about issues rather than about getting to know someone and having the race be all these tangiental things, or illusory conceptual stuff like "hope."

 

[mckmas8808]

There is certainly merit to your post, but what you wrote does not address my complaint with what he actually said.

As I pointed out in my previous post, wearing an American flag pin is an act of patriotism. This is directly true by dictionary definition. The person wearing the pin could be a traitor, but wearing a pin is still on a fundamental level an act of patriotism.

My annoyance is with Obama's self-defined version patriotism: "speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security". Patriotism can be represented in thousands of different forms. Certainly "speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security" could be considered patriotic, but that does not dismiss any of the thousands of other possible patriotic gestures.

I'm sure you could go on to argue that he meant something different from what I quoted, but those are his words and they are worth criticizing. Really though, this is a stupid issue that will have no bearing on who I vote for this fall. I feel bad for continuing this discussion.

Thanks for posting the quote. But isn't it clear that he was only talking about himself?

 

[mckmas8808]

I think they'd say their argument is more, we want to underscore the fact that McCain has certain strengths we feel are our own strengths as well, and this competitiveness makes us more electable in the GE. And they can also point to recent polls that have Hillary faring better than Obama as suggesting the more the general electorate learn about Obama, the more skeptical they are about him as CiC; this has been the Hillary argument in a nutshell for a while: hey you know me already, so this can be about issues rather than about getting to know someone and having the race be all these tangiental things, or illusory conceptual stuff like "hope."

During Obama's worst week in history she bearly is beating him in some polls. What does that really tell you?

 

[speculawyer]

Simple dictionary definition of patriotism: n. Love of and devotion to one's country.

I have never understood how this issue has become so corrupted. Wearing an American flag pin certainly is a gesture of love and devotion to America. I don't understand how anyone could argue with this. At the same time though, there is absolutely nothing unpatriotic about not wearing a silly pin.

If a man brings his wife flowers, this could certainly be called a gesture of love and devotion. If a man does not bring his wife flowers that does not mean he does not love his wife.

Wearing an American flag pin is an act of patriotism (albeit superficial). If you disagree you are simply wrong.

Wearing an American flag pin has it origins in cynical pseudo-patriotism. The practice first started when Nixon started to go down in flames . . . people around him decided to wear flag lapel pins to show how patriotic they were. So, basically, the practice was started by crooks attempting to appear patriotic . . . it basically seems to continue that way today.

 

[electricpirate]

Thanks for posting the quote. But isn't it clear that he was only talking about himself?

When you look at his later posts that clarify what he says it's pretty obvious he was talking about how people (not just himself) have used flag pins as a surrogate for patriotism. It's a statement that has a couple of different interpretations, APF chooses to take the most anti obama one because he's a troll (and a pretty good one too, judging by how much we got sucked in to this pointless debate).

 

[mckmas8808]

When you look at his later posts that clarify what he says it's pretty obvious he was talking about how people (not just himself) have used flag pins as a surrogate for patriotism. It's a statement that has a couple of different interpretations, APF chooses to take the most anti obama one because he's a troll (and a pretty good one too, judging by how much we got sucked in to this pointless debate).

But see that's my point. Nobody has yet posted the WHOLE quote in its entirety. Someone post it and let me decide.

 

[thekad]

Christ.

 

[GhaleonEB]

From TPM

More on Tuzla

As the Clinton campaign now concedes, Sen. Clinton's claims about running from their military aircraft to evade sniper fire are not borne out by the video of the events in question. Now still others have come forward to dispute her account. And there's even more. Sen. Clinton has said on a number of occasions that she was "the first, you know, high- profile American to go into Bosnia after the peace accords were signed because we wanted to show that the United States was 100 percent behind the agreement."

But this also seems to incorrect.

According to some quick research we did, it turns out that Madeleine Albright, then UN Ambassador, then-Chairman of the Joint Chiefs John Shalikashvili, then-Sec Def Bill Perry, various members of Congress and President Clinton himself had all visited Tuzla a few months earlier.

I think the real story here though is the big picture. People have faulty memories. Things get dramatized in people's recollections. And despite what happened on the ground, they did do one of those evasive 'cork-screw' descents [see update below] meant to guard against taking incoming fire, a relatively routine measure in conflict and post-conflict settings but one that I'm sure made everyone on board feel palpably that this wasn't some flight to Paris or Madrid. But this is an anecdote that's become something close to a staple of her foreign policy experience resume. And it's pretty clearly false. And it comes in the context of a whole slew of exaggerations -- some minor, some major -- that she's used to puff up her Commander-in-Chief resume.

As I noted a few weeks back, I don't think you need to be a veteran or someone who's done foreign policy work in the executive branch. Bill Clinton didn't have any. I think both Clinton and Obama are perfectly capable of being good presidents and able commanders-in-chief -- certainly they'd pursue wiser polices than John McCain. But in trying to push this argument that she and John McCain stand on one side of the foreign policy divide (aka, Commander-in-Chief threshold) and Obama on the other she's had to make a series of arguments that are just plain silly.

Late Update: Apparently the military aircraft did not make a 'corkscrew' landing but rather what the Post refers to as a 'very fast descent' (not sure if they mean a steep descent). In any case, as per what I said above, not sure this greatly changes things. Memories aren't perfect; maybe she doesn't know the difference, etc. But wanted to set the record straight.

 

[maximum360]

Wow CNN. Video of Obama on vacation. You'd think we have more pressing concerns in this country.

 

[electricpirate]

But see that's my point. Nobody has yet posted the WHOLE quote in its entirety. Someone post it and let me decide.

I did, but it was at the bottom of the page, easy to miss


Edit: and so everyone can be clear
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/04/obamas-lapels/

“The truth is that right after 9/11 I had a pin,” Mr. Obama replied. “Shortly after 9/11, particularly because as we’re talking about the Iraq war, that became a substitute for, I think, true patriotism, which is speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security.

“I decided I won’t wear that pin on my chest,” he added. “Instead I’m gonna’ try to tell the American people what I believe what will make this country great and hopefully that will be a testimony to my patriotism.”

Then his clarification a couple of days later

“Somebody noticed I wasn’t wearing a flag lapel pin and I told folks, well you know what? I haven’t probably worn that pin in a very long time. I wore it right after 9/11. But after a while, you start noticing people wearing a lapel pin, but not acting very patriotic. Not voting to provide veterans with resources that they need. Not voting to make sure that disability payments were coming out on time.

“My attitude is that I’m less concerned about what you’re wearing on your lapel than what’s in your heart. And you show your patriotism by how you treat your fellow Americans, especially those who served. You show your patriotism by being true to our values and our ideals and that’s what we have to lead with is our values and our ideals.”

Yup, he could have phrased his first point much better to come in line to the second comment. But it's pretty clear what he was saying now.

 

[XxenobladerxX]

When the tough get going,go on vacation! If Obama is to busy going on vacation,how can he fix this country?

 

[Kildace]

When the tough get going,go on vacation! If Obama is to busy going on vacation,how can he fix this country?

Are you being serious or are you referencing Fox's comments on Kerry's ski vacation during the 04 election?
I watched Outfoxed a couple of days ago so it's fresh on my mind.