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[maximum360]

Seriously, someone needs to start forwarding worms and viruses with this anti-obama propaganda nonsense in mass. Hopefully the news media will pick up on it and warn people against reading such drivel or else. That alone would stop a lot of the misinformation.

 

[mckmas8808]

A lot of people are deluding themselves into thinking that change is going to come immediately after the election and they're in for a rude awakening. Most people don't understand that the kinds of changes that Obama is suggesting are going to take time. The deficit, the economy, health care, the energy problem, the inflation, Iraq...that's a lot to get done in four years and you can bet your ass that coming up short of any of that will result in "I TOLD YOU SO!" from the right, regardless of whether or not they're logically sound arguments to make.



Tell us what you do and we'll see if it's comparable to picking cotton/tobacco and bailing hay in 95+ heat with 90+% humidity.

I like your first statement. But the second one doesn't make sense. Someone working in a tobacco farm is more easily replaceable than a president of Exxon Mobile.

Someone making contracts for the DOD (were each contract is north of $1 million) deserves more than someone making digging and making underground pools in North Texas.

 

[Gaborn]

This is something that libertarins and some republicans have to remember. Those roads you drive on have to get paid by somebody.

Could be toll roads as an alternative. I'm also not completely opposed to the gas tax for the most part. It's basically a user fee anyway, and those have never been quite as problematic as say the income tax.

 

[bishoptl]

look at all the college student socialist fucks talking about being poor. You fucks haven't worked a hard day's work in your entire lives. :lol

ping

 

[WickedAngel]

I like your first statement. But the second one doesn't make sense. Someone working in a tobacco farm is more easily replaceable than a president of Exxon Mobile.

Someone making contracts for the DOD (were each contract is north of $1 million) deserves more than someone making digging and making underground pools in North Texas.

I wasn't questioning whether or not someone who works tobacco is easily replaceable. He implied that the people in this thread had never worked a hard way's work in their life and that's really fucking far from the truth.

 

[Amir0x]

ping

Aw I totally gave him a warning so he could respond and kill himself with style

 

[Zaptruder]

According to Politifact he didn't, someone named John Semmens did.

Zaptruder - I suggest a massive scaledown in the size of government at every level, both domestically and overseas. Pull back and get rid of the national debt, shrink government as much as possible, cut taxes and cut spending. Let people opt out of social security (as well as raise the retirement age by ten years so its more in line with FDR's original vision of getting the money to enjoy the last few years of your life).

Scaling back the government would probably be a good idea... specifically the military side of the government.

Do you guys know how big and efficient your military industrial complex is? The amount of opportunity cost to keep that thing running... $500 billion, and you guys could've replaced the power grid with renewable energy sources. But if the government paid for all that, you'd be screaming bloody murder until you were blue in the lips. Yet it would benefit you more than your military currently does.

 

[The Librarian]

look at all the college student socialist fucks talking about being poor. You fucks haven't worked a hard day's work in your entire lives. :lol

Whoa man. I may only be sixteen, and haven't had a job yet, but to assume that others disagree with you because they haven't put in a hard day's work in their entire lives is just being insulting.
Edit: wow, I'm slow.

 

[WickedAngel]

Aw I totally gave him a warning so he could respond and kill himself with style

bishoptl doesn't play with his food.

 

[scorcho]

I wasn't questioning whether or not someone who works tobacco is easily replaceable. He implied that the people in this thread had never worked a hard way's work in their life and that's really fucking far from the truth.

i was more offended he called us college students.

college? as if - I GO TO A UNIVERSITY, MAAAAN.

 

[Amir0x]

bishoptl doesn't play with his food.

yeah but now I'm hungry and without a night's meal

TIME FOR THE PROWL

 

[Gaborn]

Scaling back the government would probably be a good idea... specifically the military side of the government.

Do you guys know how big and efficient your military industrial complex is? The amount of opportunity cost to keep that thing running... $500 billion, and you guys could've replaced the power grid with renewable energy sources. But if the government paid for all that, you'd be screaming bloody murder until you were blue in the lips. Yet it would benefit you more than your military currently does.

I hope you don't think I disagree with you. Though I WILL say I would disagree with that because the government would likely be less efficient than a private contractor doing it. I will say though it would be a better usage of the money than the military currently puts it to.

 

[Instigator]

Could be toll roads as an alternative. I'm also not completely opposed to the gas tax for the most part. It's basically a user fee anyway, and those have never been quite as problematic as say the income tax.

Oh those toll roads would work just great in big cities.

 

[mckmas8808]

Scaling back the government would probably be a good idea... specifically the military side of the government.

Do you guys know how big and efficient your military industrial complex is? The amount of opportunity cost to keep that thing running... $500 billion, and you guys could've replaced the power grid with renewable energy sources. But if the government paid for all that, you'd be screaming bloody murder until you were blue in the lips. Yet it would benefit you more than your military currently does.

I still don't understand the republicans for that one reason. They hate damn near all social programs, yet they scream about dems that want to cut the military spending by 10%.

Oh teh noes we can't fly F-17 test drills 30 days in a row now for no reason. [/cry]

And why do we run so many test drills in the military anyway? And why do we do it so much?

 

[Gaborn]

Oh those toll roads would work just great in big cities.

Well, the way it would probably work in fact is a card you can buy for major cities, an EZ pass if you will for when you enter and exit the city that lasts a day, week, month, or year depending. Perhaps even a similar county by county pass, or a state pass, and a fund set up with that money divided between all the roads.

 

[Zaptruder]

I hope you don't think I disagree with you. Though I WILL say I would disagree with that because the government would likely be less efficient than a private contractor doing it. I will say though it would be a better usage of the money than the military currently puts it to.

Well. Shit.

Hold enough opinions and some have to match up some times.

Problem is there's not enough market place impetus or opportunity to build the renewable energy infrastructure on the scale that's needed to make it a success without government intervention.

And yet, you'd be better off if it happened sooner rather than later.

 

[WickedAngel]

I still don't understand the republicans for that one reason. They hate damn near all social programs, yet they scream about dems that want to cut the military spending by 10%.

Oh teh noes we can't fly F-17 test drills 30 days in a row now for no reason. [/cry]

And why do we run so many test drills in the military anyway? And why do we do it so much?

You need a big military when your foreign policy pisses off the entire world.

 

[Gaborn]

Well. Shit.

Hold enough opinions and some have to match up some times.

Problem is there's not enough market place impetus or opportunity to build the renewable energy infrastructure on the scale that's needed to make it a success without government intervention.

And yet, you'd be better off if it happened sooner rather than later.

Well, the way I think it will probably happen is a state by state effort, different states afterall likely might use different power sources (it'd make sense for Alaska to use hydro and solar for example because half the year Alaska has sunlight 24 hours a day and it also has the most coastline of ANY state, but it might make more sense for an interior state to use just solar, maybe some sort of trash burning technology, and other states with broad open spaces better wind turbines).

 

[gkryhewy]

Well, the way it would probably work in fact is a card you can buy for major cities, an EZ pass if you will for when you enter and exit the city that lasts a day, week, month, or year depending. Perhaps even a similar county by county pass, or a state pass, and a fund set up with that money divided between all the roads.

What we're probably going to have eventually is an annual Vehicle Miles Traveled (VMT) fee. Could be a technological solution (embedded GPS and the like), or there could just be odometer checks at annual/bi-annual inspections.

 

[Gaborn]

What we're probably going to have eventually is an annual Vehicle Miles Traveled (VMT) fee. Could be a technological solution (embedded GPS and the like), or there could just be odometer checks at annual/bi-annual inspections.

It's possible that way too, though I HOPE a GPS isn't involved personally.

 

[Instigator]

Well, the way it would probably work in fact is a card you can buy for major cities, an EZ pass if you will for when you enter and exit the city that lasts a day, week, month, or year depending. Perhaps even a similar county by county pass, or a state pass, and a fund set up with that money divided between all the roads.

So I assume you'd have to pay for one for your kids too, just to allow them to pass every checkpoint as they walk to school (someone has to pay for those sidewalks).

The infrastructures for every checkpoint would be a new level of ugliness and the added cost of controllers making sure everyone strolling around paid their fare/card makes this inefficient and silly.

There's a good reason why toll stations have always been limited to bridges and highways.

 

[Diablos]

Kristol: Bush might bomb Iran if he 'thinks Senator Obama’s going to win’

On Fox News Sunday this morning, Weekly Standard editor Bill Kristol said that President Bush is more likely to attack Iran if he believes Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) is going to be elected.

Interview on Fox Link: http://thinkprogress.org/2008/06/22/kristol-bush-iran/

How can he bomb Iran without congressional approval?

Besides, if he did that, and McCain supported such actions, I think it would actually HELP Obama win.

 

[Zaptruder]

You need a big military when your foreign policy pisses off the entire world.

It's more like, you end up setting foreign policies that piss off the entire world, because you don't know what else to do with your big military.

 

[mckmas8808]

So I assume you'd have to pay for one for your kids too, just to allow them to pass every checkpoint as they walk to school (someone has to pay for those sidewalks).

The infrastructures for every checkpoint would be a new level of ugliness and the added cost of controllers making sure everyone strolling around paid their fare/card makes this inefficient and silly.

There's a good reason why toll stations have always been limited to bridges and highways.

No kidding. Gaborn wtf man? Your opinions imo are giving libertarians a bad name.

 

[Tamanon]

How can he bomb Iran without congressional approval?

Besides, if he did that, and McCain supported such actions, I think it would actually HELP Obama win.

The president can declare and participate in military actions like that without congressional approval. He can even initiate war, but has to get approval within 30 days afterwards.

 

[NewLib]

How can he bomb Iran without congressional approval?

Besides, if he did that, and McCain supported such actions, I think it would actually HELP Obama win.

The same way Bill Clinton did with Iraq. President only needs congressional approval for allocation of funds and declare war.

Edit: Also Kristol is an idiot. Bush would not bomb Iran just for the sake of fucking up a future administration. Despite everything, I still think he legitimately loves his country more than his party. Also the big T word would come into serious play if he did this.

 

[avatar299]

So I assume you'd have to pay for one for your kids too, just to allow them to pass every checkpoint as they walk to school (someone has to pay for those sidewalks).

The infrastructures for every checkpoint would be a new level of ugliness and the added cost of controllers making sure everyone strolling around paid their fare/card makes this inefficient and silly.

There's a good reason why toll stations have always been limited to bridges and highways.

Or you could just pay taxes, and have that money be sent to the builders of the roads.

This argument is dumb.

 

[Gaborn]

So I assume you'd have to pay for one for your kids too, just to allow them to pass every checkpoint as they walk to school (someone has to pay for those sidewalks).

The infrastructures for every checkpoint would be a new level of ugliness and the added cost of controllers making sure everyone strolling around paid their fare/card makes this inefficient and silly.

There's a good reason why toll stations have always been limited to bridges and highways.

Not necessarily, you could also code it so every car has the EZ Pass like card enbedded and all that would be needed is a 5 second scan of some kind to the car.

Avatar - the funny thing is I DID say I wasn't particularly opposed to the gas tax, although it's not ideal in my opinion.

 

[scorcho]

or people could just pay taxes.

 

[Fatalah]

or people could just pay taxes.

WHAM!

 

[avatar299]

Avatar - the funny thing is I DID say I wasn't particularly opposed to the gas tax, although it's not ideal in my opinion.

It's a necessary evil

or people could just pay taxes.

The argument about roads is far more than just paying taxes.

Why do people on gaf bring up the roads crap? No one knows why it is argued.

 

[Azih]

Money doesn't come from nowhere, it comes generally from your interaction with other people,

Trust fund babies

 

[Gaborn]

Trust fund babies

Their parents/grandparents/whatever earned the money at some point, the fact that it stays in the family in accordance with their wishes isn't morally problematic either. Though I'm not sure how much INCOME they have to be taxed.

 

[mckmas8808]

It's a necessary evil
The argument about roads is far more than just paying taxes.

Why do people on gaf bring up the roads crap? No one knows why it is argued.

So what exactly are you arguing?

 

[avatar299]

So what exactly are you arguing?

The argument on roads is a question of what freedoms and responsibilities a road company should have, and if giving them increased freedoms will hurt the cities.

tolls are irrelevant

 

[Azih]

Their parents/grandparents/whatever earned the money at some point,

They didn't.

Though I'm not sure how much INCOME they have to be taxed.

Trust funds generate investment income. Which for some reason is taxed at a much lower rate than payroll income.

 

[Kitschkraft]

Kristol: Bush might bomb Iran if he 'thinks Senator Obama’s going to win’

On Fox News Sunday this morning, Weekly Standard editor Bill Kristol said that President Bush is more likely to attack Iran if he believes Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) is going to be elected.

Interview on Fox Link: http://thinkprogress.org/2008/06/22/kristol-bush-iran/

Doesn't surprise me at all.

I'm expecting quite a lot of shit to be thrown at Obama.

I actually have a bet with my brother that they "somehow" finally find Osama Bin Laden around October.

When Israel did those test flights the other day, I'm watching the news, thinking in my head : "I see what you did there".

 

[Gaborn]

They didn't.

Right, money pops out of the air. At some point, whether it's from a product, a service, or whatever, somebody earned that money.

Trust funds generate investment income. Which for some reason is taxed at a much lower rate than payroll income.

So the solution is to tax income MORE? How does that even begin to make sense?

 

[deadbeef]

The president can declare and participate in military actions like that without congressional approval. He can even initiate war, but has to get approval within 30 days afterwards.

What? Congress has the power to declare War, not the president. Anyway, when was the last time Congress actually declared war? World War II?

 

[Frank the Great]

What? Congress has the power to declare War, not the president. Anyway, when was the last time Congress actually declared war? World War II?

He meant that the president can initiate an undeclared war.

He only needs Congress for funding.

There needs to be an Amendment that limits the President's war-making powers. Sometimes I feel like we live in the Roman principate.

 

[Azih]

Right, money pops out of the air.

I was talking about the trust fund babies. The existence of whom completely destroys your argument that higher level of income = great effort by person earning said income. What parents and grandparents did or did not do is irrelevant to the prosperity and hard work of the trust fund baby.

So the solution is to tax income MORE?

Solution is to tax investment income at the same rate as payroll income. This is what Warren Buffet keeps on harping on about.

Edit: Your country is freaking trillions of dollars in debt. No matter how much you cut spending you still have to increase the revenue flowing into the countries coffers to even begin to pay that shit off. Your country is freaking suffering.

 

[Acid08]

Can we stop fucking supporting Israel now?

 

[Hitokage]

People shouldn't ever bring up the ideal of "hard work" while defending the disparity in taxation between earned and unearned income.

 

[SouthernDragon]

His point though is it's perfectly "fair" (maybe not right, but fair) to take the same percentage of the "Fruits of his labor" as it were as people with less, so if you have, to continue the analogy 10 apples, and the government takes one, and if you have 100 the government takes ten, that's fair. But why be forced to give the government 15? or 20? or 40? You worked hard to produce that many, you worked hard, you worked overtime, and you get penalized for doing so? That's the part that isn't right.

Well, the current situation is that you have 10 apples, and the government takes 4 of them, while I have 100 apples, and the government takes 15. Perhaps I am giving up more, but I still have 85 apples, while you are left with 6. So I'm giving up more in absolute terms, but it doesn't affect me nearly as much as your apple tax affects you.

Also, taxes are not a punishment, they are a fee for living in a civilized society.

 

[deadbeef]

He meant that the president can initiate an undeclared war.

He only needs Congress for funding.

There needs to be an Amendment that limits the President's war-making powers. Sometimes I feel like we live in the Roman principate.

But Congress doesn't have the balls to cut the funding. Gotta get re-elected, you know?

 

[Cyan]

Trust fund babies

So raise inheritance taxes.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the income tax argument people were having.

 

[Gaborn]

People shouldn't ever bring up the ideal of "hard work" while defending the disparity in taxation between earned and unearned income.

Yes and no. A high income person and a low income person can both work hard at different jobs. The problem isn't hard work vs less hard work, the problem is that despite working hard (which isn't to say someone at a lower income level isn't doing so) a person at a higher income is often disproportionately taxed so that their harder work results in a greater percentage of their labor going to the government and less of an ability to benefit from their job.

I was talking about the trust fund babies. Which completely destroys your argument that higher level of income = effort by person earning said income.

Howso? Just because the person benefiting isn't the one that earned it directly does not mean that someone didn't earn it at a high level of income. This is a little off topic (though not much) but the estate tax punishes people for dying. A dying person has the right to distribute their money and know that it is put to their intended use. So the government has no particular claim on higher levels of that income."

Solution is to tax investment income at the same rate as payroll income. This is what Warren Buffet keeps on harping on about.

Though I oppose taxing both, I will say that doing that would be a lot fairer than simply increasing the income tax in a "progressive" (IE steal more from the rich) manner.

 

[Frank the Great]

But Congress doesn't have the balls to cut the funding. Gotta get re-elected, you know?

That's exactly why I said that there needs to be an amendment to limit the President's war-making powers.

In the Roman principate, they had a senate that simply did whatever the "First Citizen" told them to. Sometimes, that's how it feels today.

The more things change, the more they stay the same, huh?

 

[SouthernDragon]

Ummm, disproportionate taxation? The capital gains tax is 15% while the average worker is taxed 36-39%. The truly wealthy don't make their money from earned income, they make them from investments that use the capital gains tax.

 

[Azih]

So raise inheritance taxes.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the income tax argument people were having.

It has to do with the hopelessly naive idea that people who make more money work harder.

Gaborn probably thinks inheritance tax/estate taxes are 'death taxes' in any case.