Support NeoGAF

[PantherLotus]

JayDubya isn't bigoted and ignorant, it's just what he said is bigoted and ignorant.

I had no idea me and my family came over here for the welfare. All this time I thought they were busting their hump to get ahead.

Seriously, what a joke. I hail from Colombia, and my family gets better healthcare over there. It's cheaper, more personal, faster, and far easier to access. Hell, it's cheaper to get a plane ticket and fly back to get treatment than stay here.

If we're here for something, it's definitely not the medical system. And that's just one component of welfare.

Honestly, Jay, what an offensive and ignorant position you've taken. You seem to be a very smart fellow and I don't think you yourself are ignorant, but this stance is.

Also, we're not a "pest" issue, what the fuck. The solution is not to starve us out, it's changing these ridiculous immigration laws. I find the argument rather similar to drugs, actually; people are going to do it anyways, it's much more harmful as an illegal activity, legalizing it would increase tax revenues, legalized it can be regulated safely, and the only reason we don't legalize it are antiquated social standards.

Current immigration law is terrible. Reform it, and allow these people in legally.

Well said and agreed on most points.

 

[SoulPlaya]

I think some of these accusations against Obama are going a bit too far. As far as we know, Obama is expressing his true beliefs, anything else is just dangerous speculation.

 

[eznark]

Flight, are your parents still here illegally?

 

[PantherLotus]

I think some of these accusations against Obama are going a bit too far. As far as we know, Obama is expressing his true beliefs, anything else is just dangerous speculation.

Good point. Either he's expressing his true views and he isn't the perfect answer to every social ill the left wants resolved, or he's not expressing his true views and he's somewhat politically malleable in the same vein of Clinton (which I don't think is an insult, btw).

Black & White vs. Shades of Gray.

We just had a 8 years of black and white issues, where there was only one "right" answer. Let's give the whole Clinton political shades of gray thing another shot.

 

[JayDubya]

Current immigration law is terrible. Reform it, and allow these people in legally.

I don't really disagree.

I had no idea me and my family came over here for the welfare. All this time I thought they were busting their hump to get ahead.

And that's great, which is why legal immigration should be easier and why I don't like the hostile approach of targeting employers. If you want to work, great, by all means. I'm far from a "dey took ur jerbz" position.

However, there are harmful results of illegal immigration, and those should be targeted, rather than continuing to incentivize the practice with bad policy.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Flight, are your parents still here illegally?

We're not here illegally at all, but my argument stands just the same. Immigrants, legal or illegal, are not here for the welfare. I'm surrounded by illegal immigrants, though, physically and socially (I'm in Miami). I talk to them everyday, and I've heard from a variety of experiences. None of them are here for the welfare. All of them came here because the United States offers greater opportunities for their children in one way or another, either by raising/hoping to have children here or by sending remittances back home to fund good schooling for their children.

By denying them an easy and just method of immigration, we deny ourselves as a country great new minds, to boot. A friend of mine from high school is illegal. This guy is incredibly intelligent, and multitalented. Volunteers, plays instruments, and academically bright. Because he's illegal, though, all he can manage to do is go to the local college here even though he'd surely be accepted at venerated institutions elsewhere.

My family is here illegally, but we're the only ones from my family to be able to do so. I have no idea how my dad did it, but here we are. Visas are routinely denied to the rest of my family back home, and most of the time it's because the consular simply doesn't want to give them the visa. Just because.

For others, the prices are exorbitant. Or the quotas too low.

The current system is non-sensical and hurts us all, native born or immigrant, legal or illegal.

Oh, and if I wanted to go somewhere for the welfare, I'd go to Europe. I get at least one month of mandatory paid leave along with vacation money? Then what the fuck am I doing here?

That is, if I'm here for the welfare state.

 

[JayDubya]

Oh, and if I wanted to go somewhere for the welfare, I'd go to Europe. I get at least one month of mandatory paid leave along with vacation money? Then what the fuck am I doing here?

You may note that Europe is a bit more difficult to get to compared to riding in the back of a truck for a few miles.

If you can afford a transcontinental plane ticket, congratulations, what I'm talking about probably doesn't apply to you.

 

[PhoenixDark]

You don't?

Obama was asked about legalizing pot and he didn't even respond to the question legitmately... that tells me he obviously understands why it makes sense, just knows politically it might not be the best call.

He doesn't want to give equal rights to every man/women?

And finally he doesn't want our Country to follow the principals of the our Constitution, even though he campaigned on the idea of ending the "removal of our freedoms?"

Are you serious? You expect a politician to legalize a drug and be tarred with the consequences for the rest of his career? That's not change, unless you refer to the change that'll happen in 4 years when he loses the presidency. Legalizing weed may or may not be logical, but at the end of the day it's not a political reality. And Obama has never stated he was in support of it.

Obama has been very clear that he doesn't think gay couples should marry. We've known that long before he ran for office.

 

[scorcho]

You may note that Europe is a bit more difficult to get to compared to riding in the back of a truck for a few miles.

Hey Flight, how was that truck ride into the States?

 

[eznark]

I'm all for open borders. I think the hoops one has to go through to enter the country legally are appalling. I find it as absurd to claim that no illegal aliens come to the country for improved benefits (as absurd as to claim that ALL illegal aliens come for this reason).

They come for jobs and opportunity. Improved infrastructure, political stability, health care, education, etc... It makes sense to reduce incentives for illegal immigration and increase the ability and attractiveness of legal immigration.

Hey Flight, how was that truck ride into the States?

Why are you and FlightOfHeaven rolling illegal aliens and legal immigrants into the same boat? Clearly, in all of his posts on the subject, Jay has been referencing illegal aliens, not Flight and his legal family.

 

[PantherLotus]

Hey Flight, how was that truck ride into the States?

:lol

JayDub: can you show which part of the "welfare state" that illegals are benefitting from? I'm ignorant as to what you believe they're costing us.

 

[JayDubya]

Why are you and FlightOfHeaven rolling illegal aliens and legal immigrants into the same boat?

Interesting. A rhetorical question about loaded rhetoric.

 

[PantherLotus]

Republicans Compare Public Option To Hurricane Katrina

Congressional Republicans have released an outline of what they call the Patients' Choice Act--their alternative to health care legislation due shortly out of both the Senate Finance Committee and the Committee and Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions. They will refer to this in the coming weeks as they attempt to defeat Democratic reform efforts, and, at the very least, it's a much more thorough document than was, say, the House GOP's alternative budget, which was mocked loudly all across the capital.

More on the merits later. (As a sneak peak, the PCA, like the Republican budget, includes a predictable scheme to turn Medicare into a boon for private insurers.)

But of course, with Republicans out of power, this plan is mostly meant to serve rhetorical purposes--it's not really a plausible direction for health reform under Democratic rule. If you're looking for some insight into how they plan to attack the forthcoming legislation, though, it's a pretty good primer.


For instance, it warns that "[t]he federal government would run a health care system--or a public plan option--with the compassion of the IRS, the efficiency of the post office, and the incompetence of Katrina."

 

[eznark]

the compassion of the IRS, the efficiency of the post office, and the incompetence of Katrina.

Probably true.

 

[scorcho]

Oh the irony of Republicans pointing out the failure of the federal gov't response to Katrina.

This plan is full of win.

 

[APF]

Rush Limbaugh challenges MSNBC: Don’t mention me

"Update: Contessa Brewer makes it one mention so far today. At 10:09amET: 'You have these staunch conservative talkers, people like Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh who insist that if you don't tow the party line and the one that they see as being on the far right, then you should just leave the party all together.'"

via http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser...ng_to_build_its_ratings_on_my_back_116948.asp

 

[PantherLotus]

"Update: Contessa Brewer makes it one mention so far today. At 10:09amET: 'You have these staunch conservative talkers, people like Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh who insist that if you don't tow the party line and the one that they see as being on the far right, then you should just leave the party all together.'"

via http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser...ng_to_build_its_ratings_on_my_back_116948.asp

Yeah...I don't think MSNBC gives a shit what Rush wants them to do. It's as if he finally realizes his negative impact on his party.

 

[SouthernDragon]

You may note that Europe is a bit more difficult to get to compared to riding in the back of a truck for a few miles.

If you can afford a transcontinental plane ticket, congratulations, what I'm talking about probably doesn't apply to you.

You're still missing my point.

And believe it or not, but some people scrape and save for that plane ticket, which costs just as much, or may be cheaper than, crossing the Mexican border. From what I've heard, coyotes charge anything from 400-1200 USD per person. My family paid something like 200$ per person when we came over.

Why are you and FlightOfHeaven rolling illegal aliens and legal immigrants into the same boat? Clearly, in all of his posts on the subject, Jay has been referencing illegal aliens, not Flight and his legal family.

To the part of the post that I omitted; do people come here for improved benefits? Sure! A more stable nation, reduced crime, and greater educational opportunities are what most immigrants come here for. I don't see how those three go into a "welfare state", with the exception of education. Possibly.

And I roll illegal and legal immigrants into the same crowd because we aren't discussing how they get in here, but rather why. "They come here for the welfare state." At this point, we're not making a great distinction between the two.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Are you serious? You expect a politician to legalize a drug and be tarred with the consequences for the rest of his career? That's not change, unless you refer to the change that'll happen in 4 years when he loses the presidency. Legalizing weed may or may not be logical, but at the end of the day it's not a political reality. And Obama has never stated he was in support of it.

Obama has been very clear that he doesn't think gay couples should marry. We've known that long before he ran for office.

How is it not logical?

I expect a politician to do what is right. If he can provide a reasonable explanation on why it isn't I will respect it. But until then I just see a politician caring more about himself then the people who voted for him for "change."

 

[mckmas8808]

Probably true.

The post office is really that bad?

 

[PantherLotus]

The post office is really that bad?

No. I heard working for them sucks, though.

 

[GhaleonEB]

The post office is really that bad?

I assume "efficiency" means the post office is losing money, which it is.

 

[JayDubya]

And I roll illegal and legal immigrants into the same crowd because we aren't discussing how they get in here, but rather why. "They come here for the welfare state." At this point, we're not making a great distinction between the two.

There's a pretty big distinction there, considering you're adding more people to "they" than the pronoun-user intended.

If you can provide for your own welfare and the welfare of your family, then you won't be "coming for the welfare state."

Big fat giant "Duh," dude.

 

[scorcho]

I'm eagerly awaiting Republicans abolishing the USPS

 

[mckmas8808]

How is it not logical?

I expect a politician to do what is right. If he can provide a reasonable explanation on why it isn't I will respect it. But until then I just see a politician caring more about himself then the people who voted for him for "change."

So you saying he hasn't change anything?

 

[eznark]

And I roll illegal and legal immigrants into the same crowd because we aren't discussing how they get in here, but rather why. "They come here for the welfare state." At this point, we're not making a great distinction between the two.

Of course we're making a distinction. No one has a problem with people immigrating here legally, therefore I don't give a shit why they come. Those that come illegally, therefore, and the only ones whose motives I wish to dissuade.

 

[PantherLotus]

There's a pretty big distinction there, considering you're adding more people to "they" than the pronoun-user intended.

Will you please respond to the direct question in my post above?

 

[SouthernDragon]

The post office is really that bad?

Working for them is.

I assume "efficiency" means the post office is losing money, which it is.

What? I remember this coming up in previous PoliGAF threads, and it was funding itself adequately.

Of course we're making a distinction. No one has a problem with people immigrating here legally, therefore I don't give a shit why they come. Those that come illegally, therefore, and the only ones whose motives I wish to dissuade.

The motives are the same. And to be clear, neither of them come "for the welfare state."

 

[The Librarian]

Will you please respond to the direct question in my post above?

Put Ed Shultz in the OP. Now.

 

[mckmas8808]

I assume "efficiency" means the post office is losing money, which it is.

True. But was the post office suppose to be a "for profit" company? And do the REPs also know how much money would be lost in the economy if there was no federal post office?

 

[PantherLotus]

Put Ed Shultz in the OP. Now.

why?

 

[eznark]

The motives are the same. And to be clear, neither of them come "for the welfare state."

That is an absurdly bold and broad statement.

Put Ed Shultz in the OP. Now.

Why? Every hack radio mouth needs to be listed?

 

[The Librarian]

why?

Because you have Matthews, Olbermann, and Maddow up there?

 

[mckmas8808]

Working for them is.

."

Why should we care how great it is to work for the post office?

 

[eznark]

Because you have Matthews, Olbermann, and Maddow up there?

Who the hell put Ed Schultz on TV?

 

[PantherLotus]

Because you have Matthews, Olbermann, and Maddow up there?

But Schultz is a clown. We have to draw the line somewhere.

That is an absurdly bold and broad statement.

not as bold as saying people come here illegally so they can get free stuff.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yeah Ed Schultz sucks.

 

[The Librarian]

But Schultz is a clown. We have to draw the line somewhere.

Ed is awesome.

 

[eznark]

But Schultz is a clown. We have to draw the line somewhere.



not as bold as saying people come here illegally so they can get free stuff.

I agree, so it's great that all I said was that those safety nets are incentives and not the singular motive.

 

[JayDubya]

Will you please respond to the direct question in my post above?

In my state, there's a net loss of multiple billions of dollars per annum due to provision of social services for illegal immigrants, as confirmed by multiple studies over the course of a decade, the most of recent of which relevant to this discussion being released I do believe no more than one month ago.

 

[SouthernDragon]

That is an absurdly bold and broad statement.

It most assuredly is, and I say it because of where I live and who I talk to. I'm in an area that's filled with legal and illegal immigrants.

Now, if you want, I'll give some ground. When it comes to higher level treatments, like heart transplants and the like, both sides of the border are equally bad in different ways. In our countries, you simply won't get that treatment. Here, you'll get it, but you'll be in debt for the rest of your life to pay for it.

Most people from Latin countries want to come here for improved opportunity, mostly for their children, sometimes for themselves. That's it.

 

[PantherLotus]

Yeah Ed Schultz sucks.

Shocking that MSNBC benched 1400 for this trash, too, and a shame to such level headed wonks like Chris and Rachel that they're even on the same freaking network. Olberman I can deal with--he's smart and at least backs his opinions up with obscure "I'm Ivy League" historical references--even if he is appallingly over the top some times.

But Schultz is just too much. I'm not putting him in the OP regardless of the trash that sits directly below the MSNBC line.

 

[PantherLotus]

In my state, there's a net loss of multiple billions of dollars per annum due to provision of social services for illegal immigrants, as confirmed by multiple studies over the course of a decade, the most of recent of which relevant to this discussion being released I do believe no more than one month ago.

Which social services exactly? And Texas, right?

 

[eznark]

It most assuredly is, and I say it because of where I live and who I talk to. I'm in an area that's filled with legal and illegal immigrants.

Now, if you want, I'll give some ground. When it comes to higher level treatments, like heart transplants and the like, both sides of the border are equally bad in different ways. In our countries, you simply won't get that treatment. Here, you'll get it, but you'll be in debt for the rest of your life to pay for it.

Most people from Latin countries want to come here for improved opportunity, mostly for their children, sometimes for themselves. That's it.

I actual know one single illegal alien who came to the country from Jalisco so that he could have his kid in American and has stayed here ever since surviving on various forms of assistance (and false documents from time to time). He worked in a mfg. shop with me. I don't think either of our anecdotal evidence proves a thing, sadly.

Holy shit, MSNBC actually put Ed Schultz on TV? hahaha, awesome.

 

[speculawyer]

For instance, it warns that "[t]he federal government would run a health care system--or a public plan option--with the compassion of the IRS, the efficiency of the post office, and the incompetence of Katrina."

Well, if it is run by the GOP, then yeah. :lol

BTW, the post office is actually amazingly efficient.

 

[APF]

Shocking that MSNBC benched 1400 for this trash, too, and a shame to such level headed wonks like Chris...

Wait, what?

 

[VistraNorrez]

How is it not logical?

I expect a politician to do what is right. If he can provide a reasonable explanation on why it isn't I will respect it. But until then I just see a politician caring more about himself then the people who voted for him for "change."

Doing what is right doesn't just happen. Things aren't accomplished with Obama's words. There is a time and place to get things done. And knowing when to bring up certain topics is just as important as putting that into action.

 

[PantherLotus]

Wait, what?

Chris Matthews is level headed.

 

[eznark]

Chris Matthews is level headed.

He certainly sends a shiver up my leg.

 

[speculawyer]

Yeah Ed Schultz sucks.

meh . . . Ed Schultz serves a good purpose. He is a face of the Democratic party to beer-drinking gun-toting blue collar and rural America.

If Obama says he is not going to take your guns, many don't believe him. But if Ed Schultz says they are not going to take your guns, some people are more likely to believe him.