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PoliGAF Thread of PRESIDENT OBAMA Checkin' Off His List

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G

GhaleonEB

Member
ToxicAdam said:
I think the race will be a good test on Rasmussen on their polling techniques. Although a late surge in "get out the vote" efforts by the Dems could dramatically effect the final results.
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They were proven to be solid in their national poll during the election, but I think their more recent polling has been all over the place. It's really down to who has the best likely voter screen - guessing turnout. And with so much shifting on the ground so fast, I think even polls taken right now might be missing what's going on.

Despite my anxiety over the health bill, I'm genuinely fascinated to see how this pans out. A lot of interesting dynamics at play.
 
mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Highlights
The New York Federal Reserve's Empire State report shows solid, accelerating January-to-December growth in the New York manufacturing region. The general business conditions index rose to 15.92 from December's 4.50 (any reading above zero indicates month-to-month growth; the larger the number, the faster the growth). The new orders index really shows improvement, jumping to 20.48 vs. December's 2.77. Shipments, which follow new orders, rose more than 12-1/2 points to 21.07.

Unfilled orders rose in the month, at 2.67 which doesn't sound like much but compares with steep month-to-month contraction in prior months including November's -21.05. With unfilled orders no longer contracting, manufacturers in the region will be drawing on their available capacity and will be less likely to cut workers. In the case of January, the report's sample actually added employees with the index at 4.00 vs. December's -5.26. Evidence that manufacturers are drawing on capacity is offered by the workweek index which rose to 5.33 vs. -5.26 in December. With greater activity, the supply chain will be tested and delivery times will slow as they did in the current report with a reading of 6.67 vs. -2.63 in the prior two months. Inventories are one factor unfortunately that has yet to respond in the region, at -17.33 to extend the cycle's long run of destocking. Employment really won't be improving until manufacturers begin to restock.

This report adds to wide evidence of rising prices for raw materials (especially energy products) as the prices paid index shows the most significant month-to-month change of any reading at 32.00. But manufacturers are absorbing these costs, lacking the pricing power to pass them through to their customers as the prices received index shows little month-to-month change at 2.67.

This report will raise expectations for solid gains in next week's regional report from the Philadelphia Fed, which if it also proves strong will raise expectations for a strong reading in the ISM national manufacturing survey. At 9:15 ET today, the Federal Reserve in Washington will post industrial production data, which includes a key manufacturing component, for the month of December.
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http://bloomberg.econoday.com/byshoweventfull.asp?fid=442505&cust=bloomberg&year=2010#top

This should point to some interesting manufacturing numbers at the end of the month.
 
C

cntr

Banned
Enough With Government Waste Already!

As someone that has little use for government, I find myself in the awkward position of actually defending it when I hear the utter nonsense put forth by people suggesting that the private sector can do a better job.

There is no doubt that any large organization is going to do things wrong and generate a significant amount of inefficiency. However, this is true of corporations just as it is with government. Corporations do not hold a privileged position in somehow having solutions to these problems, because they often perform worse than government,but without the public visibility.

In addition, most corporations simply don't have as many people to serve as the government, so simple scaling is sometimes enough to create large differences.

Often government waste is "spun" in various ways for political impact, while private corporations rarely come under such scrutiny, unless their behavior is literally "off the charts".

The Heritage Foundation has a website listing 50 examples of government waste, but more importantly it is interesting how some of this information is presented.

Consider this statement from the site:


"Congress has allowed government employees to spend tax dollars on iPods, jewelry, gambling, exotic dance clubs, and $13,500 steak dinners."​


No doubt you're trying to imagine how someone could spend over $13,000 on steak dinners. Of course, they fail to inform you that this was a conference with 81 attendees, that was intended as a marketing effort to get new customers. Suddenly the expenditure doesn't seem quite as ridiculous, especially when it is viewed against comparable efforts put on by corporations to advance their marketing agendas¹.

Let's also put this into context, because I'm sure many will see this as my being an apologist for the post office. My point isn't whether the expense was legitimate or not, but rather that it was presented as almost criminal, which it clearly was not.

Also consider that most corporations consider Travel and Entertainment expenses as the second highest cash outlay, after payroll, that they have. Since these expenses can be up to 10% of total expenditures, it bears considering what happened to part of our $700 billion dollar bailout (after the bonuses paid to keep all that "talent").

More importantly when reviewing the examples of government waste, let's keep one other thing firmly in mind. A significant portion of the waste is caused by "law-abiding, taxpayers" who think nothing of defrauding the government and stealing tax dollars. Whether this be from health-care fraud or corporations that bill for services never performed.

We can all concur that the government needs to be more watchful, but the sad reality is that most of the real thievery occurs because of fellow citizens stealing from us, the taxpayers. When reviewing the list, just consider how many of these problems occurred because of U.S. citizens and not government irresponsibility (unless, of course you expect the government to be like a parent and scold them for bad behavior).

"The Pentagon recently spent $998,798 shipping two 19-cent washers from South Carolina to Texas and $293,451 sending an 89-cent washer from South Carolina to Florida."​


Of course, they fail to mention that this was a case of fraud which was prosecuted, resulting in a fine of "$750,000. She faces a maximum prison sentence of 20 years on each count and will be sentenced soon."

Somehow the story doesn't seem as outrageous when you realize that these people were criminally prosecuted and tried for their theft. Once again, though it is interesting to note how the allegation of government waste was presented to maximize the effect of the innuendo.

As I said, I'm not a big fan of government and certainly don't see myself as it's defender. I don't think government is capable of solving every problem, nor do I think that every problem is even solvable. However, it's time to grow up and face the reality that government is NOT business. Government has a responsibility to take actions even when they aren't profitable. Government has a responsibility for citizens even when it isn't cost effective. Unlike corporations, government can't simply argue that its citizenry is too expensive to support and they should move if they don't like it.

So let's stop pretending that the private sector does everything better. It can barely take care of itself².

¹ Check the menu at Ruth's Chris Steak House http://www.sizzlingsteak.com/menus.html
² Don't overlook the reference to the $92 billion spent on corporate welfare.
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C

cntr

Banned
Burning the library in slow motion: how copyright extension has banished millions of books to the scrapheap of history
Jamie "Public Domain" Boyle sez, "When Ray Bradbury's 1953 classic, Fahrenheit 451 was published, it was scheduled to enter the public domain this month -- January 1, 2010. But then we changed the law. And Bradbury's firemen look like pikers compared to the cultural conflagration that ensued. The works may not be physically destroyed -- although many of them are; disappearing, disintegrating, or simply getting lost in the vastly long period of copyright to which we have relegated them. But for the vast majority of works and the vast majority of citizens who do not have access to one of our great libraries, they are gone as thoroughly as if we had piled up the culture of the 20th century and simply set fire to it; and all this right at the moment when we could have used the Internet vastly to expand the scope of cultural access. Bradbury's firemen at least set fire to their own culture out of deep ideological commitment, vile though it may have been. We have set fire to our cultural record for no reason."

Remember folks, thanks to 11 copyright term extensions in the past 40-some years, more than 98% of all works in copyright are "orphaned" -- still in copyright, but no one knows to whom they belong.

But the legal changes introduced in the years after Fahrenheit 451 did more than just extend terms. Congress eliminated the benign practice of the renewal requirement (which had guaranteed that 85% of works and 93% of books entered the public domain after 28 years because the authors and publishers simply didn't want or need a second copyright term.) And copyright, which had been an opt-in system (you had to comply with some very minor formalities to get a copyright) became an opt out system (you got a copyright automatically when you "fixed" the work in material form, whether you wanted it or not.) Suddenly the entire world of informal and non commercial culture -- from home movies that provide a wonderful lens into the private life of an era, to essays, posters, locally produced teaching materials -- was swept into copyright. And kept there for the life of the author plus 70 years. The effects were culturally catastrophic. Copyright went from covering very little culture, and only covering it for a 28 year period during which it was commercially available, to covering all of culture, regardless of whether it was available -- often for over a century. Unlike Fahrenheit 451, the vast majority of the culture swept into this 20th century black hole was not commercially available and, in most cases, the authors are unknown. The works are locked up -- with no benefit to anyone -- and no one has the key that would unlock them. We have cut ourselves off from our own culture, left it to molder -- and in the case of nitrate film, literally disintegrate -- with no benefit to anyone. The works may not be physically destroyed -- although many of them are; disappearing, disintegrating, or simply getting lost in the vastly long period of copyright to which we have relegated them. But for the vast majority of works and the vast majority of citizens who do not have access to one of our great libraries, they are gone as thoroughly as if we had piled up the culture of the 20th century and simply set fire to it; and all this right at the moment when we could have used the Internet vastly to expand the scope of cultural access.​

Fahrenheit 451... Book burning as done by lawyers (Thanks, Jamie!)
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C

cntr

Banned
Huge Parking-Lot Solar Array Powers NJ Grid With Over a Million Annual Kilowatt-hours

Alpha Energy, a Bellingham, Washington-based photovoltaic power systems provider, has installed one of the largest parking structure solar arrays in the US; a 1 MW system on the parking lot of an auto auction facility in New Jersey.

The solar panels will supply the New Jersey grid with more than a million kilowatt-hours of electricity a year.

This much clean electricity will replace 1.9 million pounds of carbon dioxide that would have been emitted by the provision of an equivalent number of kilowatt-hours produced by polluting electricity from coal, gas or oil.

Like an equivalent sized building would; the construction of the parking structure required 550,000 pounds of steel and 240 cubic yards of concrete. Unlike a traditional parking structure, it also required 54,000 feet of wiring to add the solar power.

The 1 MW structure, comprising over 5,000 individual 171 Watt panels, is connected via 11 inverters to a meter connecting it to the grid, and spans a total area of 104,000 square feet.

The visitors to the Manheim NJ National Auto Dealers Exchange auction facility in Bordentown, NJ will be able to plug in their electric cars under the parking structure, and all the parking lot lighting will be powered by the solar array. But the New Jersey grid is the big beneficiary of this much power.

Alpha Energy designed, installed, commissioned, tested, and will provide ongoing monitoring of the system.
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L

loosus

Banned
mckmas8808 said:
If too many banks fail in a short period of time and the FDIC decide to raise the amount of money that all banks have to pay, shouldn't you be pissed off about that too?
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The FDIC has nothing to do with this. It has everything to do with the bailouts.

You really don't understand the situation at all, so your best bet is to simply stay out of the discussion.
 
T

ToxicAdam

Member
One of the biggest hurdles in the "green industry" is quantifying energy so people can relate to it. When I read that a parking garage can provide one million KW in a year to the grid, I have no way of quantifying that in my head. If someone said 200 tons, or 10000 miles, or 1 billion dollars ... those numbers are very large, but you can still wrap your mind around the actual size of those figures and relate to it. With measures of energy, it's not as easy. Maybe it's something that should be pushed in earlier education. That and more financial basics.

After looking it up a few years ago, I learned that a typical household uses 10,000 kWh in a year. So a million kWh in a year would help provide power to 100 houses. Which is a nice round way to equate a million Kwh and easier for your mind to wrap around.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
ToxicAdam said:
One of the biggest hurdles in the "green industry" is quantifying energy so people can relate to it. When I read that a parking garage can provide one million KW in a year to the grid, I have no way of quantifying that in my head. If someone said 200 tons, or 10000 miles, or 1 billion dollars ... those numbers are very large, but you can still wrap your mind around the actual size of those figures and relate to it. With measures of energy, it's not as easy. Maybe it's something that should be pushed in earlier education. That and more financial basics.

After looking it up a few years ago, I learned that a typical household uses 10,000 kWh in a year. So a million kWh in a year would help provide power to 100 houses. Which is a nice round way to equate a a million Kwh (or a mega-watt) and easier for your mind to wrap around.
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On a semi-related note, that's the problem I have with conceptualizing wildfires. They're reported in acres, when I don't have the slightest idea how big an acre is (looking it up gets me an answer, but not a mental image). So every time they report thousands of acres burned, I'm left asking, is that a lot? Square miles, I can understand.
 
C

cntr

Banned
mckmas8808 said:
How many homes will this power up?
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Perhaps slightly less than the number of times you've said "You don't know what you're talking about" (or variants on the aforementioned).
kcfevn.jpg


ToxicAdam said:
One of the biggest hurdles in the "green industry" is quantifying energy so people can relate to it. When I read that a parking garage can provide one million KW in a year to the grid, I have no way of quantifying that in my head. If someone said 200 tons, or 10000 miles, or 1 billion dollars ... those numbers are very large, but you can still wrap your mind around the actual size of those figures and relate to it. With measures of energy, it's not as easy. Maybe it's something that should be pushed in earlier education. That and more financial basics.

After looking it up a few years ago, I learned that a typical household uses 10,000 kWh in a year. So a million kWh in a year would help provide power to 100 houses. Which is a nice round way to equate a a million Kwh (or a mega-watt) and easier for your mind to wrap around.
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Article said:
This much clean electricity will replace 1.9 million pounds of carbon dioxide that would have been emitted by the provision of an equivalent number of kilowatt-hours produced by polluting electricity from coal, gas or oil.
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But yeah, the household comparison would be neat and simple to use.

GhaleonEB said:
On a semi-related note, that's the problem I have with conceptualizing wildfires. They're reported in acres, when I don't have the slightest idea how big an acre is (looking it up gets me an answer, but not a mental image). Square miles, I can understand.
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I have similar problems since I'm a metric commie :(
 
L

loosus

Banned
GhaleonEB said:
On a semi-related note, that's the problem I have with conceptualizing wildfires. They're reported in acres, when I don't have the slightest idea how big an acre is (looking it up gets me an answer, but not a mental image). So every time they report thousands of acres burned, I'm left asking, is that a lot? Square miles, I can understand.
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No offense, but that's a personal problem. You should have a mental image of an approximate acre. I'm not saying that having it in miles, too, wouldn't be a good idea -- just that you need to learn what an acre is. :p
 
T

ToxicAdam

Member
loosus said:
No offense, but that's a personal problem. You should have a mental image of an approximate acre. I'm not saying that having it in miles, too, wouldn't be a good idea -- just that you need to learn what an acre is. :p
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It's still harder to conceptualize. With miles (not square miles) you only need to think in a linear fashion. With square (anything) you need to conceptualize it in two axis. Which can get very fuzzy if you don't have any real-world examples to hang your hat on.

I'm fortunate because my plot of land for my house is almost exactly one acre. So, if someone says 500 acres, I can sort of visualize 500 plots of land all bunched together.
 
S

ShOcKwAvE

Member
cartoon_soldier said:
Apparently, Obama is heading to MA to campaign for Coakley.

Democrats have lost the plot.
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He's probably pissed for being forced to try and save her himself. Heads in the DSCC will probably roll.
 
mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
loosus said:
The FDIC has nothing to do with this. It has everything to do with the bailouts.

You really don't understand the situation at all, so your best bet is to simply stay out of the discussion.
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No you just shown that you don't want to discuss the issue and would rather just spew hate about the tax on the banks.
 
C

cntr

Banned
TSA lied: naked-scanners can store and transmit images

You know those airport scanners that can see through your clothes, offering an intimate look at your junk and your lovehandles and every other part of you that you keep between you, your spouse, your doctor and the bathroom mirror? You know how the TSA swore up and down that these machines didn't store and couldn't transmit the compromising photos of your buck-naked self?

They lied.

The documents, which include technical specifications and vendor contracts, indicate that the TSA requires vendors to provide equipment that can store and send images of screened passengers when in testing mode, according to CNN.

The TSA has stated publicly on its website, in videos and in statements to the press that images cannot be stored on the machines and that images are deleted from the scanners once an airport operator has examined them. The administration has also insisted that the machines are incapable of sending images.

Just more US government employees doing Al Qaeda's business: undermining the quality of life in the "free" world. Osama's still free, how about you?

Airport Scanners Can Store, Transmit Images (via Digg)
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mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
ToxicAdam said:
One of the biggest hurdles in the "green industry" is quantifying energy so people can relate to it. When I read that a parking garage can provide one million KW in a year to the grid, I have no way of quantifying that in my head. If someone said 200 tons, or 10000 miles, or 1 billion dollars ... those numbers are very large, but you can still wrap your mind around the actual size of those figures and relate to it. With measures of energy, it's not as easy. Maybe it's something that should be pushed in earlier education. That and more financial basics.

After looking it up a few years ago, I learned that a typical household uses 10,000 kWh in a year. So a million kWh in a year would help provide power to 100 houses. Which is a nice round way to equate a million Kwh and easier for your mind to wrap around.
Click to expand...

Hey shouldn't that be 1,000 homes per year?
 
C

cntr

Banned
Lawsuits: AT&T collects illegal taxes on Internet access

Over the last month, a series of federal lawsuits around the country have charged AT&T with illegally collecting "taxes" on wireless data plans. The suits, which all seek class action status, say that there are no such taxes.

AT&T's wireless unit has been hit by numerous federal lawsuits over the last month, each arguing that the mobile telephony giant is illegally collecting nonexistent "taxes" on phone data access plans. The cases have been filed in states as varied as Georgia, Indiana, and Alabama, but all make the same charges against AT&T—and all use the same idiosyncratic spelling of "I-Phone."

That's because the same lawyers are involved in each one.
Taxes and "taxes"

The charges in these cases stem from AT&T's sales tax collection practices. The federal Internet Tax Freedom Act bans most taxes on Internet access until 2014. Despite the law, AT&T has allegedly collected sales taxes on its data plans, which the complaint says clearly amount to "Internet access" under the law.

In each state, the lawyers have found an individual to bring the complaint, each version of which is largely identical to the others. The goal is for a judge to certify the case as a class action lawsuit, opening the door up to the "thousands of individuals" impacted by AT&T's collection of the "purported sales 'taxes'."

In some states, the claim is merely that the "taxes" are not actually "taxes" at all, just ways to collect more revenue. But in some states, like Alabama, the suit points out that companies which collect sales tax are allowed to hold back tiny percentages from the state in order to cover the cost of compliance (in Alabama, it's 0.25 percent of the tax).

While the law sounds simple, implementation can be complicated, in part because many states disagree on what the law actually covers. According to a 2006 report (PDF) from the Government Accountability Office, Internet access sold to consumers and businesses is tax-exempt, but Internet services sold to ISPs themselves is not (states differ on their acceptance of this distinction). Furthermore, the GAO argues that things like telephone service, video services, and even VoIP should be taxed, since they are "telecommunications" service and not "Internet access."

The GAO report does suggest that basic Internet connections, including those provided by DSL, cable, and wireless technologies, cannot be taxed; the lawsuits argue that such taxes are in fact being levied by AT&T. The company hasn't been commenting on the suits, and AT&T has not yet filed a response in any of the cases we examined. It's quite possible that the company will claim its data plans are not pure "Internet access" under the law, despite being broken out separately on the bill, but we'll have to see.

How much money is at stake here is hard to say. The lawsuits do say that they expect the issue to exceed the $5 million threshold for class action cases.

The cases appear to be spearheaded by lawyers from Bartimus, Frickleton, Robertson, & Gorny, personal injury lawyers from Missouri. (Partner Jim Bartimus was the Personal Injury Litigator of the Year in Kansas City for 2009.) BFRG is no stranger to this sort of litigation, and has previously secured a $450 million settlement from mobile phone companies after claiming that the firms hid rate increases as "tax increases."

And AT&T is no stranger to being sued. In the last year alone, the company's wireless unit has faced big lawsuits from songwriters over its ringtones, lawsuits for slow 3G speeds, and even attempted class action suits over the iPhone's lack of MMS.
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P

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
3rdman said:
Huh?...it states can only transmit them in "testing mode" which I presume is different from "operational mode", no?

How would you test (and by extension, diagnose) problems with these scanners if you don't "see" what was correctly or incorrectly scanned???
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I was going to point this out as well.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Looks like PhRMA is getting cold feet and threatening to blow up the deal it has with the White House on supporting health care reform. From the AP:

The drug industry is threatening to end its support for President Barack Obama's health overhaul effort because of a rift with the administration over protecting brand-name biotech drugs from low-cost generic competitors.

In an e-mail obtained Friday by The Associated Press, the president of the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America told the trade group's board members that "we could not support the bill" if the industry is given less than 12 years of competitive protection for the expensive products. ...

"Please activate immediately all of your contacts," said the e-mail from Billy Tauzin, the group's president.
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http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2010/01/drug_companies_threatening_to_oppose_health_bill.php

I wonder what would happen if the WH totally scrapped the deal at the last second, adding language that would benefit generic competitors and allow importation from Canada.
 
C

ClovingWestbrook

Banned
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aPg2UfFaCh9c&pos=9

Senate Can Pass Health With 51 Votes, Van Hollen Says (Update1)
Share Business ExchangeTwitterFacebook| Email | Print | A A A

By Jonathan D. Salant

Jan. 15 (Bloomberg) -- Even if Democrats lose the special election to pick a new Massachusetts senator Tuesday, Congress may still pass health-care overhaul through a process called reconciliation, a top House Democrat said.

That procedure requires 51 votes rather than the 60 needed to prevent Republicans from blocking votes on President Barack Obama’s top legislative priorities. That supermajority is at risk as the Massachusetts race has tightened.

“Even before Massachusetts and that race was on the radar screen, we prepared for the process of using reconciliation,” Chris Van Hollen of Maryland, chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, said.

“Getting health-care reform passed is important,” Van Hollen said in an interview on Bloomberg Television’s “Political Capital with Al Hunt,” airing this weekend. “Reconciliation is an option.”

Should Democrats take that route, the legislation would have to be scaled back because of Senate rules.

He also said he expects Democratic Senate candidate Martha Coakley to win in Massachusetts.

Van Hollen said Republican predictions that the political climate had changed so much that they can capture the 40 seats needed to regain control of the House was “pure hallucination.”

‘Into the Ditch’

“Why would you hand the keys to the car back to the same guys whose policies drove the economy into the ditch and then walked away from the scene of the accident?” Van Hollen said. “For the Republicans to say vote for us and bring back the guys who got us into this mess in the first place, I don’t think it’s a winner.”

He said Democrats expect to see their majority shrink this year because the party that occupies the White House traditionally loses congressional seats in the first midterm election.

At the end of a week dominated by images of death and destruction after the Jan. 12 earthquake in Haiti, Van Hollen said lawmakers likely will approve whatever relief money the president requests. Obama has already asked for $100 million.

“We want to help people who need relief immediately, and so to that extent I support it,” Van Hollen said this afternoon.

Separately, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano announced that Haitian nationals now in the U.S. will be allowed to stay for an additional 18 months because of the quake devastation.

Gasoline Tax

On other domestic issues, Van Hollen said Congress won’t raise the gasoline tax this year to fund a new long-term construction program for roads and mass transit. The current six-year, $286.5 billion transportation legislation is expiring.

Jobs legislation passed by the House includes $50 billion for construction projects, Van Hollen said. Longer-term legislation with a gas-tax increase will require “some kind of bipartisan consensus before you more forward,” he said.

On the decision to require Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner to testify before the House Financial Services Committee, Van Hollen said that while he didn’t believe Geithner was in political danger, it was appropriate for him to come before Congress.

AIG Payments

Lawmakers want to know why the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, which Geithner formerly led, agreed to payments of 100 cents on the dollar to companies that held American International Group Inc. credit-default swaps tied to subprime mortgages.

Van Hollen said the New York Fed’s decision was wrong and the U.S. needed to “understand how that decision was made, because that kind of decision should not be made in the future.”

As Democratic congressional leaders worked with the White House to meld House and Senate versions of the health-care overhaul legislation, Van Hollen said there was no deadline for completing the measure.

“Our more important goal is to make sure we get it right,” he said.

While polls show opposition to the legislation -- a Quinnipiac University survey found 58 percent of Americans opposing the way Obama was handling the issue -- Van Hollen said the individual components were popular and most people will support the measure once it clears Congress.

“It’s been subject to a lot of demagoguery, a lot of misinformation,” Van Hollen said. Once the measure is finished, “people will see the benefits.”

To contact the reporter on this story: Jonathan D. Salant in Washington at jsalant@bloomberg.net.
 
G

Gruco

Banned
So, for some reason I decided to watch the HBO Recount special. I don't know why I do these things. God, how depressing. I know it's ten years later. Bush isn't even president anymore. I'm sure I'll be pissed for a few more decades. At least.
 
The Chosen One

The Chosen One

Member
cartoon_soldier said:
Apparently, Obama is heading to MA to campaign for Coakley.

Democrats have lost the plot.
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That sucks. I know he kind of has to do it, but this is really going to backfire. I think he's better staying away.

If Coakley loses even after Obama campaigned in the state, then the next year or so is going to be a complete nightmare for Obama. Not only will Health care crash and burn but Obama will also look very weak and he'll have zero political capital left to get anything done. Because the narrative will be not only do independents reject healthcare reform but they also reject Obama.

Whereas if Coakley loses on her own then yeah Healthcare could be in more trouble than it already is but at least Obama will still have some political capital to get a few other things done. Republicans will also still be a little measured with their attacks on Obama while campaigning.

But in the end, Obama and the Dems have no one to blame but themselves. They let the healthcare debate drag on for WAY too long. Image-wise, healthcare reform took a beating in August but it recovered somewhat mid-fall when it appeared the public option was back on the table. But then by winter, the public option was removed and the stench of all the back-room deals soured even those who were originally for reform and support has plummeted again.

They didn't pass healthcare reform by the end of the year and now they're paying for it.
 
A

Averon

Member
The Chosen One said:
That sucks. I know he kind of has to do it, but this is really going to backfire. I think he's better staying away.

If Coakley loses even after Obama campaigned in the state, then the next year or so is going to be a complete nightmare for Obama. Not only will Health care crash and burn but Obama will also look very weak and he'll have zero political capital left to get anything done. Because the narrative will be not only do independents reject healthcare reform but they also reject Obama.

Whereas if Coakley loses on her own then yeah Healthcare could be in more trouble than it already is but at least Obama will still have some political capital to get a few other things done. Republicans will also still be a little measured with their attacks on Obama while campaigning.

But in the end, Obama and the Dems have no one to blame but themselves. They let the healthcare debate drag on for WAY too long. Image-wise, healthcare reform took a beating in August but it recovered somewhat mid-fall when it appeared the public option was back on the table. But then by winter, the public option was removed and the stench of all the back-room deals soured even those who were originally for reform and support has plummeted again.

They didn't pass healthcare reform by the end of the year and now they're paying for it.
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Pretty much agree with you. Obama and the Dems allowed the GOP control the HCR debate for far too long. HCR should've been done last fall. But Reid and other Senate Dems wasted time trying to get GOP support that never came. Reid only just now realizes dealing with Olympia Snowe was a waste of time.

smh
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Averon said:
Pretty much agree with you. Obama and the Dems allowed the GOP control the HCR debate for far too long. HCR should've been done last fall. But Reid and other Senate Dems wasted time trying to get GOP support that never came. Reid only just now realizes dealing with Olympia Snowe was a waste of time.

smh
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I think you underestimate the way the media locks onto GOP narratives and talking points while ignoring the merits of both the policy and the Democratic PR efforts. There's only so much the Dem side can do to counter a deeply entrenched perspectives in the media.

At any rate, they need to motivate their base in MA and change the narrative. Obama showing up can do both, and at the end of the day, if they lose, they'll want to have lost trying everything they could. Because Obama's entire domestic agenda goes down in flames based on this special election. (I love how 41 > 59 in our government.)
 
A

Averon

Member
GhaleonEB said:
I think you underestimate the way the media locks onto GOP narratives and talking points while ignoring the merits of both the policy and the Democratic PR efforts. There's only so much the Dem side can do to counter a deeply entrenched perspectives in the media.

At any rate, they need to motivate their base in MA and change the narrative. Obama showing up can do both, and at the end of the day, if they lose, they'll want to have lost trying everything they could. Because Obama's entire domestic agenda goes down in flames based on this special election. (I love how 41 > 59 in our government.)
Click to expand...


It's true that the media played a large part of letting all that false BS go unchallenged, but when this whole tea party craziness about HCR came last summer, that should've been a sign to the Dems that the GOP was never going to help them in anyway with HCR. Why try to negotiate support from the other side when the other side is out with a bullhorn saying as much false crap as possible? I always thought Obama and the congressional Dems should've just rammed HCR back during the summer/fall and now I may be proven right. It may have not been pretty but we would've had something done by now. Now, an election in Mass that should not even be a topic of serious discussion may decide whether HCR may even pass at all.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
GhaleonEB said:
What's really sad is that a big lobby firm withdrawing support could kill a bill at this stage. Do what the lobbyist says, or else.
Click to expand...

Votes would change if the WH did something that made the lobby pull their support?
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
PhoenixDark said:
Votes would change if the WH did something that made the lobby pull their support?
Click to expand...
That's why they needed the deal in the first place.

My hope - and possibly Obama's bet - is that with healthcare this close, no Dems will flip over a relatively small provision that a lobby firm demands.

I'm guessing that what PhRMA wants in the Senate, though, they will get.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Oblivion said:
lol
Click to expand...
:lol

Only update I've seen tonight on the state of things:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34877253/ns/politics-health_care_reform/
Obama, Dems near deal on health care

Senate majority leader says negotiators are 'pretty close'

President Barack Obama and top congressional Democrats closed in on agreement Friday on cost and coverage issues at the heart of sweeping health care legislation, their marathon White House bargaining sessions given fresh urgency by an unpredictable Massachusetts Senate race.

Negotiators are "pretty close," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said after returning to the Capitol in late afternoon.

A White House statement said there are "no final agreements and no overall package." But no further meetings were scheduled, and Rep. Jim Clyburn, D-S.C., the third-ranking House Democrat, said, "Something should be going to CBO very soon, indicating that aides were drafting the decisions made around the table in the White House Cabinet Room. The Congressional Budget Office is the official arbiter of the cost and extent of coverage that any legislation would provide.
Click to expand...

Sounds like they're just about there.
 
P

platypotamus

Member
GhaleonEB said:
I think you underestimate the way the media locks onto GOP narratives and talking points while ignoring the merits of both the policy and the Democratic PR efforts. There's only so much the Dem side can do to counter a deeply entrenched perspectives in the media.
Click to expand...

"Obamacare will kill grandma and make you abort your babies"


That's all the time we have Ghal, so we'll have to leave it there.
 
D

drakesfortune

Directions: Pull String For Uninformed Rant
I still find it hilarious and disturbing that so many gaffers want Obama to jam this awful bill down the throats of the American people.

Stop.

Can you imagine Bush pushing to invade Iraq with only 1/3 of the country behind him? Can you imagine the hysteria? Obama has only 1/3rd support for this God forsaken bill, and he's doing just that, and on a bill that will have a FAR greater impact on Americans for generations. It's fucked.

Bush had 75% of the country behind him when he went into Iraq, and look at the hysteria that ensued.

Now we have Obama, prepared to sell liberalism down the river for another 30 years to pass this bill that WILL BE REPEALED by Republicans, and you clap on. It's crazy. It's CRAZY! We live in a democracy, and all of you little fascists argue against the VAST popular will on this issue. Even according to LIBERAL polls only about 1/3rd of the country wants this bill passed, and that number continues to drop with every poll. I can't IMAGINE something being passed that TRANSFORMS society with such little support. It's nuts. If shit like this continues, this country is done. People will NOT stand for this shit. We will NOT be walked over like this.
 
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