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[mckmas8808]

essentially, there's little use in making overtures for bi-partisanship or believing that Republicans will negotiate in good faith on sweeping legislation.

Oh okay. I competely agree with you. If I were Obama I wouldn't use the word bi-partisanship unless I knew REPs would be on board. Other than that, don't talk about it because the REPs are not going to work in good faith.

 

[Tamanon]

Bipartisanship isn't for the Republicans, it's what the blue dogs require.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

I think it's time for a new PoliGAF thread. This title doesn't exactly define what's played out over the past six months.

 

[scorcho]

Bipartisanship isn't for the Republicans, it's what the blue dogs require.

now it is, but it was still in play during that silly courtship of Queen Snowe and Collins during the HCR discussions.

 

[jmdajr]

oh wow...what an upset.

crazy

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Fox news ? More likely msnbc

Yup. It was MSNBC.


EDIT-BTW, that brunette chick on the right side of the screen during Brown's victory speech, she was HOT.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Personally I don't think Republicans gaining ground would be such a terrible thing any more. For one, Democrats have proven they either can't or are unwilling to get shit of consequence done; second, Republicans have had a pretty easy go of it working the whole unilateral-opposition-to-everything campaign they've been running since January 09. Right now political failures are being pinned (for the most part, rightfully so) on the Democratic majority, but once Republicans actually gain back some ground then they can (and between the public and the media, will) share some of the blame.

Listen to just about any high-ranking Republican and it's obvious they don't have shit for ideas about how turn things around in this country, and being typecast as the powerless, helpless "minority" they haven't really felt the need to come up with any. Pretty soon they'll have to put down the 24-7 comeback campaign, however, and actually attempt to get shit done. That's when the show starts.

 

[soul creator]

heh

If Scott Brown wins today, Democrats go from having the largest Senate majority since the 1970s to...the second largest Senate majority since the 1970s. They go from 60 votes for health-care reform to 59. Republicans haven't had a majority this large in generations.

It's evidence of how thoroughly we've internalized rule-by-filibuster that this is even a big deal in terms of short-term legislating.

 

[PantherLotus]

I think it's time for a new PoliGAF thread. This title doesn't exactly define what's played out over the past six months.

I'm going to put up the new one to coincide with the State of the Union. Feel free to submit ideas for the thread title.

 

[Aaron Strife]

I'm going to put up the new one to coincide with the State of the Union. Feel free to submit ideas for the thread title.

PoliGAF Thread of Preparations for President Romney in 2012

 

[Sirpopopop]

Yeah this is pretty spot on.



It's Obama's fault he has been unable to take command on hardly any issue, yeah.

So tell me how is he supposed to take command, when the opposition playbook is to ensure that it's impossible for him to take command.

You're asking him to do the impossible, and then getting mad that he's merely a mortal man.

Again, I say fucking retarded.

 

[mckmas8808]

heh

Yep! It's the signs (like Tamaron pointed to) that our government is fucked for the moment. I think one way to unclog it is for the nucelar option to be used. Or for Obama to put heavy pressure on the GOP to actually work with DEMs to pass some legislation.

But that won't happen until 2011 at the earliest.

 

[JoeBoy101]

I'm going to put up the new one to coincide with the State of the Union. Feel free to submit ideas for the thread title.

PoliGAF Thread of Time to Start Crunching For The Midterms

 

[ViperVisor]

So tell me how is he supposed to take command, when the opposition playbook is to ensure that it's impossible for him to take command.

You're asking him to do the impossible, and then getting mad that he's merely a mortal man.

Again, I say fucking retarded.

Daily Show clip on this is up
http://www.hulu.com/watch/121760/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-the-first-364-days-23-hours?c=147

 

[gkryhewy]

So tell me how is he supposed to take command, when the opposition playbook is to ensure that it's impossible for him to take command.

He lost control of the health care issue by deferring too long to committees and congressional leadership.

 

[Sirpopopop]

He lost control of the health care issue by deferring too long to committees and congressional leadership.

So he lost command by daring to believe that our elected leaders in Congress could get this done, rather than getting in there Rambo style, and saying, "This is how we will do it."

Do you honestly think that would have changed the narrative at all?

Obama lost because America doesn't give two shits about solving its own problems. The people just want less taxes, more attempts to kill the brown guys and sadistically torture them, and then act shocked when it turns out this plan actually causes more people to hate us. They also want to complain about big corporations and stick it to them by voting for opposition candidates who are against attempts to actually stick it to the man.

Oh, and complain about medical malpractice suits in the South while continuing to be the venue of choice for plaintiff lawyers because they know jurors there will give them big awards.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

PoliGAF Thread of Time to Start Crunching For The Midterms

PoliGAF Thread of Midterm Elections and WAIT FOR TOMMORROW'S POLLS!

 

[gcubed]

So he lost command by daring to believe that our elected leaders in Congress could get this done, rather than getting in there Rambo style, and saying, "This is how we will do it."

Do you honestly think that would have changed the narrative at all?

yes. what gave him the idea that Congress alone could do something they failed at doing many times before? and then he saw it failing, and continued, saw it failing further, and continued, saw it failing further, and continued. He fucked up, plain and simple.

 

[mckmas8808]

yes. what gave him the idea that Congress alone could do something they failed at doing many times before? and then he saw it failing, and continued, saw it failing further, and continued, saw it failing further, and continued. He fucked up, plain and simple.

I think he fucked up by letting it go too long. But letting Congress write the bill was the right thing to do. It's the only way something like that can pass.

 

[Sirpopopop]

yes. what gave him the idea that Congress alone could do something they failed at doing many times before? and then he saw it failing, and continued, saw it failing further, and continued, saw it failing further, and continued. He fucked up, plain and simple.

To quote myself:

Do you honestly think that would have changed the narrative at all?

If anything that filibuster would have come a lot sooner, because Congress would have viewed that plan as the President trying to jam down "socialism" on the American people.

Clinton tried an approach like this in 1994! Not very successful.

 

[ToxicAdam]

ITT, liberals who don't understand how our government works.

Clinton tried an approach like this in 1994! Not very successful.

..or history.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I'm going to put up the new one to coincide with the State of the Union. Feel free to submit ideas for the thread title.

PoliGAF thread of The Senate Dems, aka Obamas Kryptonite

PoliGAF thread of total letdown and disappointment: the sequel

 

[Vilix]

So tell me how is he supposed to take command, when the opposition playbook is to ensure that it's impossible for him to take command.

You're asking him to do the impossible, and then getting mad that he's merely a mortal man.

Again, I say fucking retarded.

DEMs have had a super majority in the House and the Senate for a year now. The DEMs still hold a majority in boths the House and the Senate. There's more than enough blame to go around on the DEMs as well as the REPs.

 

[suaveric]

I can't imagine what the push back would have been from Fox "News" if Obama had really tried to push congress in to getting HRC done. Maybe he should have just gone for it, how much worse could it have turned out?

 

[Baraka in the White House]

PoliGAF Thread of (averaging down) Hope and Change(TM)

 

[LosDaddie]

I think it's time for a new PoliGAF thread. This title doesn't exactly define what's played out over the past six months.

Yup a new thread title is needed.

 

[Hari Seldon]

PoliGAF Thread of Negros aren't magic.


(quote from John Stewart's show)

 

[itsinmyveins]

Hari Seldon:

I quite liked the equation they presented on Obama losing 18% approval in the very same segment :lol

 

[RiskyChris]

So tell me how is he supposed to take command, when the opposition playbook is to ensure that it's impossible for him to take command.

You're asking him to do the impossible, and then getting mad that he's merely a mortal man.

Again, I say fucking retarded.

He's supposed to take command by being the fucking President of the United States of America.

He has absolutely not taken any hard stance on anything except maybe Afghanistan this past year. It's shameful.

 

[Y2Kev]

I don't blame Obama for not passing the health care bill himself, but I do think he shoulders some of the blame for not doing more aggressive campaigning for it over the summer and for not insisting on something a little more to the left to begin with. But it sort of doesn't matter anymore. Health care died over the summer.

So he lost command by daring to believe that our elected leaders in Congress could get this done, rather than getting in there Rambo style, and saying, "This is how we will do it."

That would have been the pseudoliberal delight, but I really just did not anticipate the whole "MEDICARE IS BANKRUPT!!!! LIARRRRRRRR!!!!!" and "death panel" fiasco to really go unanswered for so long.

Obama is (was?) incredibly popular and well liked. He has the bully pulpit. He didn't use it enough to get this across.

People believe in Obama. They want to trust him. They didn't hear from him enough.

You could have Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi deliver the exact same message as Obama and people would not have the same reaction. I'm sure I'm not saying anything original here. But yeah, I'm disappointed Obama waited until September to really address the nation, let alone Congress.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Hari Seldon:

I quite liked the equation they presented on Obama losing 18% approval in the very same segment :lol

Yeah that part had me in tears. :lol

 

[Byakuya769]

I'm going to put up the new one to coincide with the State of the Union. Feel free to submit ideas for the thread title.

Poligaf Thread of "You Lie", "Grandma Dies", and "voting, why even try"

 

[Nert]

The deficit commission cometh

The idea of a "deficit commission" comes across as a silly public relations measure instead of anything substantial. There's only two broad ways of reducing a deficit: increasing the government's revenue (because our government doesn't have many state owned enterprises or commodities, this basically means increasing tax revenue) or decreasing the net cost of government programs. Unless this deficit committee is given some sort of genuine autonomy (like the Federal Reserve), any actual negotiations would be picked apart long before they come to a vote.

One great way to help bring down the deficit would be proper climate change legislation; I'm disappointed that the Obama administration hasn't been more forceful on this. Successful climate change legislation would increase the price of carbon emissions in order to encourage individuals and firms to emit less, just like any legislation that deals with an externality. The current Waxman-Markey legislation, unfortunately, hands out the majority of its carbon emitting "permits" for almost no cost.

The resulting loss of carbon tax revenue will continue to bolster the deficit (which will also increase the government's cost of borrowing down the road); even worse, the legislation will not provide a clear and consistent signal to the markets that they should fully dive into research and development on cleaner technologies. Instead, some favored companies might just get subsidies sporadically, and others will continue to emit because it is in their economic interest.

 

[Sirpopopop]

ITT, liberals who don't understand how our government works.




..or history.

I fail to see where I was wrong, unless you want to quibble on dates, which I expect that you do.

DEMs have had a super majority in the House and the Senate for a year now. The DEMs still hold a majority in boths the House and the Senate. There's more than enough blame to go around on the DEMs as well as the REPs.

Not really. There is another group higher on the list than the DEMS I would like to blame first:

I'm going to blame YOU, the American people. You elect leaders, then after a year get frustrated that they can't do anything. So, in order to solve this problem you decide to create more gridlock, and kill off a bill that was nearly done. All because you believe this bill is going to create some sort of massive big COMMUNIST government, and bought into the narrative of the same folks who brought us such great hits like the Medicare Modernization Act of 2003.

 

[gcubed]

To quote myself:




If anything that filibuster would have come a lot sooner, because Congress would have viewed that plan as the President trying to jam down "socialism" on the American people.

Clinton tried an approach like this in 1994! Not very successful.

i'm not even asking for him to try to ram down any approach, i was asking him to get the fuck involved. By the time he jumped in to cheerlead it was already too late

I fail to see where I was wrong, unless you want to quibble on dates, which I expect that you do.



Not really. There is another group higher on the list than the DEMS I would like to blame first:

I'm going to blame YOU, the American people. You elect leaders, then after a year get frustrated that they can't do anything. So, in order to solve this problem you decide to create more gridlock, and kill off a bill that was nearly done. All because you believe this bill is going to create some sort of massive big COMMUNIST government, and bought into the narrative of the same folks who brought us such great hits like the Medicare Modernization Act of 2003.

the populace is by and large stupid. they believe what they see and what the magic box tells them... when you have a one sided campaign against healthcare, the populace will by and large believe what they see on TV... this isnt new, and the dems should have understood this by now. Again... by the time anyone even wanted to try to "hit back" it was way too late

 

[Byakuya769]

I'm going to blame YOU, the American people. You elect leaders, then after a year get frustrated that they can't do anything. So, in order to solve this problem you decide to create more gridlock, and kill off a bill that was nearly done. All because you believe this bill is going to create some sort of massive big COMMUNIST government, and bought into the narrative of the same folks who brought us such great hits like the Medicare Modernization Act of 2003.

Arguing with a friend right now who believes we need single payer, doesnt' like cap and trade because he wants a true carbon tax, and was rooting for Brown because he doesn't think one party should have too much power...

This is a pretty smart guy, btw.

 

[PantherLotus]

Ok, the State of the Union is Wednesday, January 27th. The new thread will go up before then. Monday, probably. That way it will only be a couple hundred pages before he starts speaking.

 

[Y2Kev]

i'm not even asking for him to try to ram down any approach, i was asking him to get the fuck involved. By the time he jumped in to cheerlead it was already too late

Even if he were not actually designing the bill, I agree that he should have been its public face. Instead, Sarah Palin was. Really massive marketing failure.

 

[Sirpopopop]

He's supposed to take command by being the fucking President of the United States of America.

You recognize that being the "fucking President of the United States of America," doesn't mean that he's a dictator.

Nor does it mean Congress needs to bow to his will. If anything, "being the fucking President of the United States of America," will just further the hardcore extremely liberal possibly not born in the United States Communist narrative that's already been successful.

He has absolutely not taken any hard stance on anything except maybe Afghanistan this past year. It's shameful.

Yet despite this he's been successfully labeled as a hardcore extremely liberal Communist who is destroying this country.

I wonder what would have happened if he did take hard stances.

 

[Tamanon]

Eh, I think people just aren't used to how a President traditionally operates.

They lay out the agenda in the State of the Union, then rely on the rest of the leadership to pitch the ideas.

Normally it works, Bush kinda took a different approach, but it should've worked anyways, but we have greedy Congressmen who care more about what they can say they won. Of course, they might not realize that they're still on record for voting for the bill, so no matter what it'll be a campaign issue against them.

 

[Hari Seldon]

I'm going to blame YOU, the American people. You elect leaders, then after a year get frustrated that they can't do anything.

Good. Every fucking election the incumbents should be thrown out until they get a god damn clue and start doing what the people want instead of what their bribers want. The people don't want a HCR bill that is so full of pork shit that it stinks even in the most liberal state in the country.

 

[GhaleonEB]

The Democrats reaction to the Brown election yesterday is dishearteningly expected. Rather than rally to pass their signature issue - which they can do - they're running for the hills, where voters will knock them off en masse in November.

Ezra Klein has at least four excellent columns up already today. And the primary sentiment I agree with is that if Dems run for the hills and don't pass healthcare now, it will be a complete betrayal to their base. And they'll get wiped out in November, 1994-style. And they'll deserve it.

 

[ShOcKwAvE]

Perhaps someone can define how any of this is being "rammed" down? Repubs were saying that about the public option despite that polls showed the majority of the country in favor. They just say that about everything the Dems try to pass. They only care about polls when its convenient.

 

[Nert]

Not really. There is another group higher on the list than the DEMS I would like to blame first:

I'm going to blame YOU, the American people. You elect leaders, then after a year get frustrated that they can't do anything. So, in order to solve this problem you decide to create more gridlock, and kill off a bill that was nearly done. All because you believe this bill is going to create some sort of massive big COMMUNIST government, and bought into the narrative of the same folks who brought us such great hits like the Medicare Modernization Act of 2003.

Not everyone dislikes the current health care legislation being proposed because they see it as "communist" or as a "government take over," although I'm sure that enough people actually believe that to pressure Congress.

The main problem with the health care legislation (in a functional sense) is that it does almost nothing to reduce the growth rate in health care costs. The bills that have passed simply don't address many of the fundamental factors, including the employer provided insurance system, the overall fee for service structure, the fragmentation of health care delivery, or the principal-agent problem, that drive up the cost curve.

The bill's only success would involve expanding coverage. If you do this without getting the cost under control, however, the eventual insolvency of the status quo will just come about sooner rather than later.

 

[Tamanon]

Perhaps someone can define how any of this is being "rammed" down? Repubs were saying that about the public option despite that polls showed the majority of the country in favor. They just say that about everything the Dems try to pass. They only care about polls when its convenient.

You act as though statements get challenged in the media.

 

[gcubed]

The Democrats reaction to the Brown election yesterday is dishearteningly expected. Rather than rally to pass their signature issue - which they can do - they're running for the hills, where voters will knock them off en masse in November.

Ezra Klein has at least four excellent columns up already today. And the primary sentiment I agree with is that if Dems run for the hills and don't pass healthcare now, it will be a complete betrayal to their base. And they'll get wiped out in November, 1994-style. And they'll deserve it.

i'll vote against every single incumbent i can if they shove their thumbs up their asses because of this

 

[elrechazado]

The Democrats reaction to the Brown election yesterday is dishearteningly expected. Rather than rally to pass their signature issue - which they can do - they're running for the hills, where voters will knock them off en masse in November.

Ezra Klein has at least four excellent columns up already today. And the primary sentiment I agree with is that if Dems run for the hills and don't pass healthcare now, it will be a complete betrayal to their base. And they'll get wiped out in November, 1994-style. And they'll deserve it.

Or they'll pass it in a massive deafness to the electoral winds, and ...get wiped out in November 1994 style.

 

[Tamanon]

Or they'll pass it in a massive deafness to the electoral winds, and ...get wiped out in November 1994 style.

What electoral winds?

 

[Schattenjäger]

The more I read about brown, the more I like him - 30 years national guard experience ... Paratrooper, JAG - Big athlete .. All around patriot - never mind his wife is a milf
can def see him as a vp candidate if he does a good job

 

[Nert]

Perhaps someone can define how any of this is being "rammed" down? Repubs were saying that about the public option despite that polls showed the majority of the country in favor. They just say that about everything the Dems try to pass. They only care about polls when its convenient.

As someone that watches C-Span fairly often, I've noticed that the political party that is in the minority will always insist that there is some kind of "unprecedented" measures being taken to "stifle" debate in the House and in the Senate. The minority party will then go on to say that their suggestions and point of view are not being heard, and if they're sensationalist enough, they'll claim that the "voice of the American people" is being ignored. It doesn't seem to be a behavior exclusive to Republicans or Democrats.

If there is ever any legitimacy to these claims, it is because the legislative branch was intentionally designed to be "deliberative" and slow; it's not surprising that a majority party would search for some kinds of loopholes to try to hurry legislation along in order to accomplish something.