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PoliGAF Thread of PRESIDENT OBAMA Checkin' Off His List
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
PhoenixDark said:
How did he throw in the towel? Did I miss something?
The Librarian
Banned
SOTUPhoenixDark said:
If you oppose health care, is it because:
A: It goes to far
B: It doesn't go far enough
C: Not sure
Answer: Well, I am in favor of health care reform and feel that every American should be covered. But, I feel as if the current plan is too costly to acheive this possibility and I fear how it will effect the health care plan I receive now. I feel the best possible answer is a single payer system that will share risk across the entire population, but that's not a possibility right now.
Survey taker: So, you feel as if HCR goes too far and doesn't go far enough?
Answer: Shit, just put me down for C.
A: It goes to far
B: It doesn't go far enough
C: Not sure
Answer: Well, I am in favor of health care reform and feel that every American should be covered. But, I feel as if the current plan is too costly to acheive this possibility and I fear how it will effect the health care plan I receive now. I feel the best possible answer is a single payer system that will share risk across the entire population, but that's not a possibility right now.
Survey taker: So, you feel as if HCR goes too far and doesn't go far enough?
Answer: Shit, just put me down for C.
charlequin
Banned
So, I'm probably going to unsubscribe from this thread for a while after today -- I don't need GAF bringing a fresh flow of bile up into my throat every time I click the User CP link, thanks -- but I figure I'll respond once more for the road.
It's true, although on top of the Dems being extremely bad at messaging (which they've consistently been for, like, at least 20 years) you also have a media establishment which has actively worked throughout this process to brazenly lie about what's going on. The Democratic leadership bent over backwards over the past year to offer opportunities for bipartisanship, to give moderate Republicans power over their domestic agenda, and to pass legislation that was centrist rather than liberal, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who will agree to that because the media has consistently described it as precisely the opposite of what actually occurred (and, getting back to the bad-messaging thing, Democrats have actively allowed them to get away with it rather than take opportunities to speak clearly and cleanly on matter.)
I don't understand why we didn't learn these fucking lessons in 200-fucking-4.
Union workers and hippies. There are basically zero people in the Berkshires but they're all going to lean liberal. Once you get past exit 5 on the Pike, though, you're headed into Connectichusetts and the legions of barftastic suburbs whose votes dwarfed what meager offerings Worcester, Boston, and P-town could toss into the breach.
I'm glad that the armchair quarterback angle on this has deftly switched from "obv. the President needs to let Congress hash out legislation and not just hand them a bill to sign" to "obv. the President needs to just hand Congress a bill to sign and not let them hash out legislation themselves" so quickly. :lol
As much as Obama failed to message effectively on health care, I don't see how it fucking matters. Systemic obstacles have stopped anything from getting passed here and now that they've taken a one-year vacation I see fucking liberals lining up to blame each other and ignore the actual obstacles that got us where we are now, again. For fuck's sake.
No, it isn't.
Pretty much, yep. I'll definitely say straight-up that Obama should be calling Reid and Pelosi both to the mat here and not letting them leave 'til they promise to do their fucking jobs and pass a bill.
It's official, if anyone's mad, they can blame amir0x.
The Chosen One said:
It's true, although on top of the Dems being extremely bad at messaging (which they've consistently been for, like, at least 20 years) you also have a media establishment which has actively worked throughout this process to brazenly lie about what's going on. The Democratic leadership bent over backwards over the past year to offer opportunities for bipartisanship, to give moderate Republicans power over their domestic agenda, and to pass legislation that was centrist rather than liberal, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who will agree to that because the media has consistently described it as precisely the opposite of what actually occurred (and, getting back to the bad-messaging thing, Democrats have actively allowed them to get away with it rather than take opportunities to speak clearly and cleanly on matter.)
ToxicAdam said:
I don't understand why we didn't learn these fucking lessons in 200-fucking-4.
devilhawk said:
Union workers and hippies. There are basically zero people in the Berkshires but they're all going to lean liberal. Once you get past exit 5 on the Pike, though, you're headed into Connectichusetts and the legions of barftastic suburbs whose votes dwarfed what meager offerings Worcester, Boston, and P-town could toss into the breach.
gkrykewy said:
I'm glad that the armchair quarterback angle on this has deftly switched from "obv. the President needs to let Congress hash out legislation and not just hand them a bill to sign" to "obv. the President needs to just hand Congress a bill to sign and not let them hash out legislation themselves" so quickly. :lol
As much as Obama failed to message effectively on health care, I don't see how it fucking matters. Systemic obstacles have stopped anything from getting passed here and now that they've taken a one-year vacation I see fucking liberals lining up to blame each other and ignore the actual obstacles that got us where we are now, again. For fuck's sake.
Byakuya769 said:
No, it isn't.
JoeBoy101 said:
Pretty much, yep. I'll definitely say straight-up that Obama should be calling Reid and Pelosi both to the mat here and not letting them leave 'til they promise to do their fucking jobs and pass a bill.
Y2Kev said:
It's official, if anyone's mad, they can blame amir0x.
SlipperySlope
Banned
Jason's Ultimatum said:
Hey hey hey. Calm down.
How would people term Regan a one-term president with the amount of support he had?
besada said:
http://pol.moveon.org/brownpoll/
Look at the crosstabs. The mandate goes over like a lead balloon with the voters with 59% opposing who voted for Brown, 55% who didn't.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Dax01 said:
I can't imagine the WH remaining silent until the SOTU. They have to do something. The best scenario is that they convince the house to pass the senate bill in exchange for immediate reconciliation. The progressives should demand a medicare buy in.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
SlipperySlope said:
Because the economy kept getting worse. That's why. A look at his polls shows how disastrous his numbers were. If it wasn't for Paul Volcker getting us out of the recession then Reagan would've been done for.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
JoeBoy101 said:
:O
The Librarian
Banned
And he's not given up. Look, either way, the biggest way he can push for HCR reform is through the SOTU. Until then, let's see what happens.PhoenixDark said:
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
WOW if true, but moveon.org?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
charlequin said:
THIS!
PhoenixDark said:
THIS too! Damn PoliGaf is coming up with some great ideas.
Jason's Ultimatum said:
That's the poll Puffington Host is talking about. Move On might have commissioned it, but Research 2000 did the poll. I'm telling you the crosstabs show a very liberal constituency that feels that Obama has not done enough and that the focus should be on the Economy and Jobs. But at the same time, is very much for democrats.
Not to rub salt on the wound, but Coakley should have won this election. Based on this poll, it should have been a cakewalk. For example:
That's Obama voters who voted for Brown!
Tamanon said:
Yeah, but I thought the populist rage would have made it much more difficult for her to win, but still win. This poll, says that's not really the case, and stresses that though there was populist rage, it would not have taken much to convince the voters to vote Democrat. At least, for the ones who voted Obama.
JoeBoy101 said:
not sure what ot make of the poll though, because its just stupidity on paper.
Dems arent doing enough to challenge republicans in congress, so lets... vote in a republican. It doesnt make sense to me.
Pimpwerx said:
no... the best possible answer would be "it doesnt go far enough" you and TA just can't answer questions apparently.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
ultim8p00 said:
Because Brown was the more attractive candidate who ran a better campaign.
Triggafinga
Banned
To those that think Obama has somehow lost or failed his presidency .....tsk tsk... this mass senate seat loss will help him govern and will probably help his state of address be more emotional ...
I'm so fucking vindicated. This was/is gonna be an albatross around the Dems' necks. We're not playing chicken with the system, we're just not that eager to pay greedy insurers. This thread was hijacked by a vocal minority when it came to that topic. This bill is a fucking disaster. Kill it as long as it keeps that mandate. Ditch the mandate and I can then opt-in if it proves viable. Single-payer is still best though. PEACE.JoeBoy101 said:
PhoenixDark
Banned
Dem talking point memo leaked
Seriously?
They sound like republicans just took over the senate. This is pathetic
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/01/dem-talking-points-were-screwed.php
Seriously?
They sound like republicans just took over the senate. This is pathetic
What makes single-payer so great? Don't be obtuse. I understand full well, I just don't agree with you. PEACE.gcubed said:
EDIT: Or rather, I don't agree that supporting this bill is in any way a good idea. You guys would like to paint the opposition as incompetent, but that's just plain bullshit when you're talking to someone in favor of single-payer. The best feature of that is distributing the cost across the tax base, DUH!
Pimpwerx said:
i would love single payer, i'm not being obtuse, you dont agree with common sense. You can't remove pre-existing condition exemptions and ban the dropping of people from plans if you dont ensure EVERYONE... hence, as TA pointed out you "share the risk"
ToxicAdam said:
you feel the "best possible answer would be single payer"... no matter if you think it is feasible or not, if you feel the best possible answer is single payer, then you think that the current bill "does not go far enough"... its not a very difficult question
I edited it shortly after that to be more clear. This bill is garbage. What part of that don't you comprehend? I'm not gonna pretend you don't understand, you just don't agree. You think it's worth saving. I'm not exactly sure why, though, when it's clear not many people like it. And it's not because everyone is ignorant of its merits. It's just not a good bill. FFS, can't anyone disagree anymore? PEACE.gcubed said:
Byakuya769
Member
quadriplegicjon said:
I'm with you man. I want to star in a Taritino film punishing people who can rationalize this:
I mean WTF. How does that even make sense?
Pimpwerx said:
no i agree, i am just arguing with you point that you want all the other things but just not the mandate... thats not how things work, if you only use insurance when you are sick, you arent "sharing the risk", all the single payer is is a tax funded mandate paid to the gov't instead of a personal funded mandate paid to the insurance companies
As much as I hate to say it I think a mandate is necessary if we're going to reform the system yet keep it in private hands, I just don't think it's financially feasible to expect insurance companies to not deny some payments or to insure people with expensive pre existing conditions without picking up the healthy youngins that don't currently have insurance. I mean it sounds nice to say that they need to build the perfect system then let us decide to join it but I don't think it'd work. If we're going to keep something similar to our current system a mandate is necessary unless we give up on insuring those who can't get coverage and shit like that. Most importantly though, regarding the mandate is I think the rights and direction of the board that'd oversee that shit needs to be more clearly defined, that was always my main gripe with that bill, that despite it having a mandate and a few good measures in place the future of the bill was up in the air outside of it not able to lose money, we had no real sense of direction, goals, what was considered fair, it was a gamble. The bill could have turned out pretty good in 10 years with the right people watching the exchange or it could have become worse just with sick people also having insurance. If there is going to be a mandate I think things need to be a little clearer than that.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
PhoenixDark said:
Game over. We had a good run with health care reform.
PhoenixDark
Banned
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/01/snowe_really.php
"After yesterday's historic election and given the political climate in this country, I certainly cannot support democrats ramming this bill through the senate. I think we should come back to this issue after the November elections to let the people speak first."
So a robust public option gets my support. This isn't rocket science. This bill doesn't suck because the public doesn't know what it wants. It sucks because of Olympia Snowe and the D-bags in Congress who fell on their swords before the fight even started. Why didn't we all blow our stacks when Obama mentioned the mandate last year on tv? Because he also mentioned a "robust" public option. Ha! Let's stop making excuses for shitty litigation. That's what it comes off as because there are so many good policy options they scrapped because of lobbyists or conservative pandering. PEACE.gcubed said:
Pimpwerx said:
thats fine then, nothing to argue with anymore, thats much better then "get rid of the mandate and let the rest go through" which was the only point i was contending. I still have no idea how a public option lost support so fast despite it being one of the only parts of the health care plan that had a large majority of public support.
NullPointer
Member
I wish.Jason's Ultimatum said:
Byakuya769
Member
ToxicAdam said:
Haha.
jamesinclair
Banned
Republican party: Bunch of old men who only no
Democratic party: Bunch of idealist hippies who can't say no.
Dem majority: We want to pass this bill
Republicans: No
D: We will!
R: No.
D: Fine, we'll make some changes
R: No
D: More changes!
R: No.
D: Fine, we give up.
Democrat voters: Fuck you democrats, Im not voting for you again.
Republican majority: We want to pass this patriot act bill
D: We don't like it
R: We're passing it.
D: Let's make changes?
R: No
D: But we don't like it
R: We don't care
D: Just this one amendment...
R: No
D: Please?
R: No.
D: Fine, we'll agree to it.
Democrat voters: Fuck you democrats, Im not voting for you again
Democratic party: Bunch of idealist hippies who can't say no.
Dem majority: We want to pass this bill
Republicans: No
D: We will!
R: No.
D: Fine, we'll make some changes
R: No
D: More changes!
R: No.
D: Fine, we give up.
Democrat voters: Fuck you democrats, Im not voting for you again.
Republican majority: We want to pass this patriot act bill
D: We don't like it
R: We're passing it.
D: Let's make changes?
R: No
D: But we don't like it
R: We don't care
D: Just this one amendment...
R: No
D: Please?
R: No.
D: Fine, we'll agree to it.
Democrat voters: Fuck you democrats, Im not voting for you again
soul creator
Member
ToxicAdam said:
well played
Byakuya769 said:
This is why. Elections are still popularity contests, and sometimes its regardless of the issues. And in an approx. one week time span, this woman suggest Catholics should not work in emergency rooms, called Curt Schilling a Red Sox fan, misspelled Mass. in one of her ads, and denigrated personal campaigning with the electorate.
At the same time, Brown was utilizing the Internet for large campaign infusions while the RNC and the NRSC were sending him money and resources below the radar. Polarizing republican figures like this one:
not only stayed away but refusing to bite at being baited into jumping into the race. And Brown could be mocked for his truck, but he used it and a campaign very open to the public to connect with voters personally.
The issues mattered little in this election. Ironically, this poll tells me that all these dems wetting their pants are premature because this election was not a message or referendum, but a simple popularity contest that Brown won.
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