Off-Kilter
Banned
Hoo boy this thread really turned to shit, huh?
You're better than this ironcreed
You're better than this ironcreed
Polygon: COD WWIIs diversity is nothing more than marketing
- Thread starter Inuhanyou
- Start date
Bloodporne
Member
Yeah but they have to start somewhere and I'll take anything that isn't 'ultra-evil genetic engineer of the Aryan race cannon fodder' for my nationality in a game to be honest. I mean at least someone had the spark of a thought to think hey maybe include a German, which there were MASSIVE amounts of, that simply was drafted into their respective army while probably working a field somewhere in the middle of nowhere at age of 17.
I don't disagree with what you're saying wholly, but like most of these types of things, it looks different from my perspective.
EDIT: As a bit of a ridiculous footnote, I'm not a fan of any of the war-for-entertainment type of games personally and won't be buying or playing it anyway. Just my two cents regarding the German thing.
To be fair, i don't think the two writers are in charge of hiring staff, are they? - the writers are a white man and a woman of color.
Ignoring whether or not they have a real point, I don't think two writers can't call out industry developers in an opinion piece just because their employer isn't a role model either, with regards to diversity in the staff they hire.
Seeing as hardly a gaming outlet is as diverse in staff as they should be, by that standard none would be allowed to point out these kinds of issues within the industry they're writing about without being 'hypocritical'
Just like it's frowned upon when people treat GAF as a singular hivemind, i'm unsure how fair it is to talk about POLYGON as one single institution.
Charles Brandon
Member
I think if you're going to call out a lack of diversity in another company from your all-white office, you should probably check to see if it's true first. Otherwise you look a bit silly.
(assuming Polygon is all-white, I really have no idea)
Evidence suggests otherwise.
I haven't posted seriously since 2014 and I'm breaking silence just to post this so think about that Ironclad.
This article is such a clickbait. Journalism like this such be punished instead they will apologize and post something else that is complete trash in a month. Journalism is so bad as of late.
Edit
amn I came to talk about how shit this article was just to see pages upon pages of racial comparison and straight political nonsense. We can't keep that stuff in off topic...
Edit
amn I came to talk about how shit this article was just to see pages upon pages of racial comparison and straight political nonsense. We can't keep that stuff in off topic...How pleasant.
They mentioned a German family which I imagine you'll meet during the campagin
http://www.gamesradar.com/call-of-d...-a-global-cast-that-includes-a-german-family/
To me it sounds like they'll show how German civilians also suffered under the war.
chillybright
Banned
One of these two things happened:
Polygon editors don't proof-read what they publish.
They read it and thought it was ok.
Polygon editors don't proof-read what they publish.
They read it and thought it was ok.
That i totally agree with.
I do not agree that no writer from an outlet with a mostly white staff shouldn't be allowed to call out other companies for not being diverse in staff without being called a hypocrite. I'm not gonna hold every single Polygon writer responsible for the possible shortcomings of that one person who does their hiring.
Ninja Scooter
Member
This article is such a clickbait. Journalism like this such be punished instead they will apologize and post something else that is complete trash in a month. Journalism is so bad as of late.
Edit
It's almost as if racism, politics and diversity in western society are all interwined in some way and impossible to separate.
FrontalMonk
Banned
Yeah, I can't really disagree with you there. I mean the fact that they actually got a historian on board for once instead of some "consultants" helps the credibility scale by a fair bit.
Gaming needs nuance in its stories, and if this is how we get there, I guess I'm on board.
I can definitely sympathize with your thought on people who were just drafted into a conflict they didn't necessarily want a part of, and I think if there's a story to be told from multiple angles about this conflict, that's where to go. My grandfather served in Italy and in France, but he was drafted into it. All the jingoistic nonsense about glory and country didn't mean a whole lot when it was "come with us or go to jail, now here's a gun, go fight for your country".
Oh, neat. I mean, hell. If nothing else, I'd like to see what they do with it.
Prithee Be Careful
Industry Professional
As much as I love to see Polygon get a firm drubbing, this is entirely true. A person's arguments are either cogent or they're not, regardless of who they are or where they're writing from.
Foxtastical
Member
Haha, holy shit. Amazing. Come on, how could the author and copy editing/proofing crew let this one slip by?From SolidSnakex in the other thread:
Simply epic.
It doesn't just refer to main protagonists; it means the casting in general (although more minorities in leading roles are welcome) and the overall quality and cultural awareness of the roles in question.
And of course it depends on context. But we're not getting Zulu games. We get games that primarily take place in western societies and contexts, societies which are some of the most diverse. And yet most characters in these games are still overwhelmingly straight white men.
The question is "why is this?" and it's partly relevant because one of the main complaints gamers have with diversity is that it's "shoved in for no reason." There is an assumption that minorities need a reason to exist when straight white male characters aren't obligated to live up to the same standard. There is no definitive reason why Mario, Nathan Drake, Marcus Fenix et. al. are straight white dudes outside of arbitrary artistic choices. Minorities should be afforded the same courtesy (or writers should start justifying a main character being a straight white male) if we're honest in our bid for equality.
Another reason to ask why gaming demographics skew the way they do is because the reiterative nature of a typical main character provides a roughly similar yet singular world perspective, and it lends to games a very narrow artistic sensibility. Mechanics, narratives, art styles, and music aren't expanded, and thus games don't grow, when you limit them to the same demographics and perspectives over and over again.
Because no one really does a fact check. They just want to be the first to post a "hot button" issue.
ebullientprism
Member
"We need diversity!"
Ok, here is a diverse cast.
"You are just pandering!"
:/
Ok, here is a diverse cast.
"You are just pandering!"
:/
To be fair, those aren't the same groups.
Foxtastical
Member
Well, start hiring people that have the gumption to do this shit right then.
Bloodporne
Member
Maybe this game isn't an ideal platform for all this but then again despite it's 'bang bang shoot everyone' gameplay, it IS essentially pimping World War II so I guess it may as well do it with some attempts at truth, honesty or whatever you want to call it.
I'm not getting on a soapbox or any of that shit but my background with that is that I'm a bit older and was raised by my great-grandmother who lost two husbands and three out of four brothers who were all drafted into that war. Quite frankly, they had probably never met Jewish person or many foreigners even in their lives, they were all very young farm boys from Eastern Germany. The cliche representation of Germans as a foaming-at-the-mouth Nazi in most games can get on ones nerves with that type of background of course so even a small sign of good will...I'll take that (while still not buying your game ironically haha).
Okay, this is starting to get off topic, so I'll stop there!
On topic:
Polygon's reasoning is more likely option #3:
"Looks outrageous right? Fuck yeah, post that shit!!!!"
The article fragments in the OP pretty clearly state that the people on stage announcing the game and talking about diversity we're all white. That's the "production" they're referring to. It's a perfectly valid criticism of the way the game was announced, and as the article points out it says nothing much about the game itself.
Charles Brandon
Member
One problem is that games tend to have just one primary character. When your audience is mostly straight, white males and you've only got one lead character to play with, you can see why they might think it's commercially risky not to pander to that demographic. They aren't looking at their game as just one game in thousands, they're looking at it as the only game they care about and therefore not worth taking a risk with. It's safer just to have the supporting NPC's take care of diversity.
That being said, it's still wrong. Is their any evidence that black/gay/muslim/etc = bad sales? I feel like they should be a bit more courageous but I suppose, ultimately, it's not the actual developers who make that decision in most cases.
woahitsshant
Neo Member
damn click bait article, don't give them views fellas.
Prithee Be Careful
Industry Professional
I mean, GTAV is probably the biggest selling game of all time by this point and you spend the first couple of hours playing a black guy... if it does put some people off, I'd say they're a statistically insignificant number.
Deckard Chapel
Banned
You're all heart.
I was of course, referring to the US forces and btw, altering history in an entertainment product that claims to be historically accurate is something that should never occur.
What's next, altering history in schools?
AlimNassor
Banned
Polygon never has any worthwhile articles. Click bait Journalism and we all fell for it once more. CoD is by the numbers everything.
Eh, same reason why people automatically dismissive others for their political beliefs. I really don't see what White Privilege had to do with anything. It was just as unnecessary as him using the same"virtue signaling" argument.
Eh, same reason why people automatically dismissive others for their political beliefs. I really don't see what White Privilege had to do with anything. It was just as unnecessary as him using the same"virtue signaling" argument.
Bloodporne
Member
San Andreas from just a quick google search on sales figures:
"As of 26 March 2008, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has sold 21.5 million units according to Take-Two Interactive. The Guinness World Records 2009 Gamer's Edition lists it as the most successful PlayStation 2 game, with 17.33 million copies sold for that console alone, from a total of 21.5 million in all formats."
I still understand completely why they consider it a risk, but in the end if the game is fucking great, I would think you'll eventually win that demographic that doesn't want to play because of XYZ over as well.
I think the fact that not pandering to straight white dudes by not making the protagonist look like them being detrimental is in itself it's own can of worms. I think it's either an implied admittance that straight white men have an empathy problem whereas- even if it's by necessity- other demographics have no problem with empathizing with straight white male characters, or it's an implied admittance that the game industry works off of outdated bigoted notions. Both are issues to hash out and tackle of they're true. If neither are true, then why all the straight white male characters? xP
And I've personally never seen any data regarding how games with minority protagonists perform compared to normal, probably because there are so few already in the AAA market you'd be hard pressed to get an actual proper sample size out of it. Although, my hunch tells me Modern Warfare still would've done gangbusters with a minority lead anyway.
ModernBoxes
Banned
Likely because of being outnumbered and not having the energy or care to deal with the can of worms opened. Posts can stand on their own, it doesn't have to always turn into a back and forth especially when you'd have multiple people combing over your every word, but not the people you're arguing. Then you're responding to three people, not one... and rarely do people ever change their minds in a public forum.
just a guess.
Charles Brandon
Member
It is weird how few games do have black protagonists though. If weird is the right word. Let alone gay or Indian or muslim or anything non-white male (although white female does OK relative to some other identities). But this has been discussed at length elsewhere and probably isn't relative to this game, especially if it does have a black protagonist.
edit: In response to Nepenthe: I think the whole fear of bad sales thing is wrong for another reason too. When I play games, I don't care what the character is and not because I'm pro-diversity (although I am, not that that is a big deal) but because I'm not trying to relate the dude anyway. I don't see characters in games as my avatar, it's not me running around shooting all those guns, what do I care if the guy on screen is different from me? I didn't for one second feel alienated by the lesbian character in Gone Home. I don't feel like a spy if I'm watching James Bond, either. It's just not a consideration and I dare say I'd feel the same way even if I was a racist fuck.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Drop the both sides crap. You really don't see how calls for inclusion and diversity being labeled as "anti white" is the epitome of white privelage? Dude was dripping in it even if he didn't realize. You can't just throw out the token "I'm all for diversity guys!" like he did, and in the same breath essentially say diversity doesn't matter "as long as the game is good". Those two things are at odds with one another. The sentiment that diversity doesn't matter actively makes it harder to obtain true diversity and inclusion.
Clearly they aren't if they dived into the "anti-white agenda" shit that quick.
Prithee Be Careful
Industry Professional
This is my suspicion too: that the discussion of diversity and inclusion is actually more divisive and volatile than the reality.
I think it's an issue of conflation. A diverse cast won't improve the mechanics, the frame-rate, level design, replayability... any of those things. In the question of what makes a quality game, I don't think diversity really isn't all that relevant. Improved diversity at the same time is unquestionably a social good. What's more important to video games as a whole? Well, that will come down to the individual.
ModernBoxes
Banned
Is it weird? Is the market demanding it? Why aren't there more RTS games on console. I know it won't be purchased, but we need more genre representation in games.
AlimNassor
Banned
Wait, I hadn't seen him posting that? Wtf that's disappointing. Figures once they use the virtue signaling argument it's a done deal.
old manatee
Banned
Does Polygon even have a racially diverse staff?
It doesn't matter. If Rupert Murdoch were to be found guilty of large scale tax evasion, does that mean that the WSJ weren't allowed to ever run a piece on Trump's tax returns?
Suzushiiro
Banned
The fact that the suits behind games as soulless and corporate as CoD now consider throwing in token women/minority/LGBT/etc. characters to be a thing they get brownie points for rather than a neutral or a negative should be considered a victory in and of itself, honestly. I do get that they can still do better, but you have to balance criticism and positivity when it comes to these things- if the response towards every step someone takes in the direction you want them to go is to complain that it's still not good enough they're eventually going to say "fuck it" and stop bothering.
Prototype Viktor
Member
Ftfy where you should have stopped
From SolidSnakex in the other thread:
Simply epic.
Did it really need two people to write this piece of journalizm?! My hunch is that Owen S. Good thought he would educate the developers on diversity little knowing that the Development Director is a black man. Allegra Frank was thrown a few paragraphs to add authenticity to the criticism.
And whilst more can be said and done to represent different people in games, as a reviewer you don't score a game down because it doesn't have the level of diversity you want. And if you are going to kick up a fuss don't base your opinions on the announcement speech - wait until you have the finished game to review!
Messofanego
Banned
First, where is the claim that Call of Duty WW2 is aiming to be historically accurate? Is it going to be a documentary?
Second, what did you learn in grade school, that American forces in WW2 were all-white? Cause if so, that's revisionism and already altered history in school.
There were 44K Native Americans of various tribes. There was a popular John Woo/Nicolas Cage movie about them, The Windtalkers.
There were around 45K Asian Americans: Japanese Americans, Chinese Americans, Filipino Americans.
250-500K Hispanic Americans, mostly of Mexican or Puerto Rican descent.
Then of course, there were a million African Americans in the armed forces, a bit more than 19K were Marines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_minorities_in_the_US_armed_forces_during_World_War_II
geordiemp
Member
Actually, my thoughts are why try to politicise this, its just a damn WW2 game for goodness sake.
Cant anyone tell a story with credible supporting roles you would expect for that period without having to include every single race and religion.
Its like having a western in old USA and saying why is there so little Korean gunfighters, nothing against Korean gunfighters but cant recall seeing any in Holywood films - the whole point of feels in some games is to give that Holywood action movie setting
Is the new COD claiming to be "historically accurate", or are they simply using the setting of WW2, which doesn't stop them from fudging facts to fit their narrative?
old manatee
Banned
Developers aren't children. They're professional artists who should be able to discern the gist of criticism and understand their products aren't perfect and that their own position as artists still leaves tons of room to learn. If a game includes a jezebel black woman character, I shouldn't have to mince words and balance my critique with gratefulness that I was even handed a black woman character at all. I'm not gonna kiss ass over table scraps. This is to say nothing of the fact that representation and cultural sensitivity have been improving despite insecure men and Gamergators doing everything in their power to stop the tide of progress. If devs were as delicate as you imply, Gamergate would've had the intended effect.
I don't think it's that a straight white male lead is the most sympathetic to all demographics. I think actually that the average person, regardless of demographic, expects a straight white male lead in an action adventure like a CoD campaign. By expect, I mean, presented the archetype of a WWII story, one imagines a white male soldier on the western front. It's the expectation ingrained by current popular culture. Video games, especially ones like the CoD series are derivative, reflecting and rehashing stories previously told in movies, television, and books. Because of that, I don't expect triple-A video games to be the medium that presents demographic innovations.
What I do think is a shame, and a bit of a regression from previous WWII games, is the focus of the war story on Western Europe, beginning in 1944. It's very American-centric. The European war was won in the East. They had to focus down the setting to tell a more compelling story, but they chose the easiest narrative setting.
They did actually mention multiple times yesterday how they strive for historical accuracy.
https://youtu.be/n2wNC5TYjyw?t=14m22s
Sometimes I've actually defended Polygon from the responses they've gotten on here, but there is nothing you can do to defend them any longer.
Pure trash.
I hope they pivot back to have us laugh at them for being bad at writing and thinking instead of spreading falsehoods about others, though. Then they only damage themselves instead of dragging down completely unrelated groups.
Pure trash.
I hope they pivot back to have us laugh at them for being bad at writing and thinking instead of spreading falsehoods about others, though. Then they only damage themselves instead of dragging down completely unrelated groups.
Charles Brandon
Member
Didn't we already establish that, on the Allied side alone there were:
Arabs
French colonial forces (presumably black Africans?)
Black US units
Japanese-American US units
Indians
Gurkhas
Maoris
and probably many more non-white troops.
So, as much as I have defended CR Projekt Red in the past in a similar debate, I really don't think that same argument works here.
Arabs
French colonial forces (presumably black Africans?)
Black US units
Japanese-American US units
Indians
Gurkhas
Maoris
and probably many more non-white troops.
So, as much as I have defended CR Projekt Red in the past in a similar debate, I really don't think that same argument works here.
FonkyByNature
Member
I think Ironcreed is a great member and a great poster here on NeoGAF. I just think he didn't understand what all this talk about white privilege is and some went ham on him and bam, he lost his temper.
Ironcreed, i like you. Don't leave.
Ironcreed, i like you. Don't leave.