Polygon: COD WWII’s ‘diversity’ is nothing more than marketing

xxMaximusxx said:
Devs can't win either way
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Seriously.

This Polygon article rubbed me the wrong way.

The premise of "it's just marketing" is just silly. Marketing is the act of finding a product that people want to buy, and then presenting it to them. Every product has a large marketing component.

But more importantly... Shouldn't we encourage effort? Is "trying" a bad thing?

Maybe we should start ganging up on Mario Kart for its lack of diversity? All the humanoids look white to me. Peach and Daisy still are the dansel in distress tropes - should we slam them for not having a more diverse cast? The Witcher and Persona 5 aren't particularly diverse, either.

This feels like CoD hate for the sake of hating CoD.

Even if it's inscincere and inauthentic (I don't think it is), inauthentic diversity is still better than no diversity.
 
Rabid Dwarf 76 said:
o1Ydde9.png
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Rabid Dwarf 76 said:
My bad. Here is the link to the thread.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1317549&page=5
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I like how you don't mention that two of those posts were tongue in cheek aka a joke, and that the other two ended up banned/mocked.

Rabid Dwarf 76 said:
It wasn't the worst. I'm sure you've heard about the group that tortured that disabled guy for being white. They videotaped it too. You can read the story and watch the video in the link below.
http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/crime/227116738-story
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And that was a terrible incident, but Im not sure what you are trying to prove.

You do NOT want to get into a contest of who can post the most vile racist shit. Because minorities in this country have had it a WHOLE lot worse. Thats not a 'contest' you are going to win. The links posted would blot out the sun, and you know it. So miss me with that shit.
 
Every body knows *only* Anglo-Saxons fought the Germans during World War 2. No one in Asia, Africa or the middle east were implicated in that war.

So you see, it's normal that every WW2 has to feature a white British or American soldier
 
Mattenth said:
Seriously.
Even if it's inscincere and inauthentic (I don't think it is), inauthentic diversity is still better than no diversity.
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From the trailer, they seemed to have tried very hard. Like that scene where that white guy punches that other white guy somewhere in Europe. Man ... was that diverse
 
TBF, whilst I have argued in favour of minority representation in WW2, there's no getting away from the fact that the vast majority of the people involved on the western front were white. I think you're going a bit overboard there.
 
Jazzy Geoff said:
TBF, whilst I have argued in favour of minority representation in WW2, there's no getting away from the fact that the vast majority of the people involved on the western front were white. I think you're going a bit overboard there.
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If you're going to bring up diversity in your marketing campaign, why not just cover like any other front than the western one?
 
Lots of reasons, mostly that it's more familiar to the target audience and the developers. I don't think it's bad that they decided to concentrate on the Western Front, particularly as they seem to have made a conscious decision to feature people who aren't white men alongside the usual Brits/GIs, even if it's a bit hamfisted in execution.
 
Jazzy Geoff said:
Lots of reasons, mostly that it's more familiar to the target audience and the developers. I don't think it's bad that they decided to concentrate on the Western Front, particularly as they seem to have made a conscious decision to feature people who aren't white men alongside the usual Brits/GIs, even if it's a bit hamfisted in execution.
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Not only that. But the last few WW2 games were set in North Africa and in the Pacific if I'm not mistaken.
 
Cipherr said:
I like how you don't mention that two of those posts were tongue in cheek aka a joke, and that the other two ended up banned/mocked.



And that was a terrible incident, but Im not sure what you are trying to prove.

You do NOT want to get into a contest of who can post the most vile racist shit. Because minorities in this country have had it a WHOLE lot worse. Thats not a 'contest' you are going to win. The links posted would blot out the sun, and you know it. So miss me with that shit.
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May apologizes if I missed the joke and took those two literally.

I totally agree. I was just posting one example. Not trying to dismiss the fact that minorities deal with it on a much larger scale either.


Ninja Scooter said:
The point seems difficult for you to grasp.
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I believe you're correct.
 
Jazzy Geoff said:
Lots of reasons, mostly that it's more familiar to the target audience and the developers. I don't think it's bad that they decided to concentrate on the Western Front, particularly as they seem to have made a conscious decision to feature people who aren't white men alongside the usual Brits/GIs, even if it's a bit hamfisted in execution.
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Well the hamfistedness is why CoD's marketing got called out in the article.

Including minorities where they historically weren't present just to appeal to the non-white demographics is a stupidly lazy marketing move.
 
calavera_jo said:
If you're going to bring up diversity in your marketing campaign, why not just cover like any other front than the western one?
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Jazzy Geoff said:
TBF, whilst I have argued in favour of minority representation in WW2, there's no getting away from the fact that the vast majority of the people involved on the western front were white. I think you're going a bit overboard there.
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because nobody wants to play a WW2 game and be reminded that the American Government was pretty fucking bigoted towards non white soldiers forced to serve in the war.

or rather, people pitching the games assume this. I guarantee if Sledgehammer decided to make the main campaign narrative around a non white battalion/company/unit (forgive me as I am not familiar with military org structure) some of the people kneejerking at this article would be complaining about forced diversity.

And part of me thinks this actually an Activision thing because there's a narrative that remains true in every game. American/Westernized white dudes fighting against brown terrorists, nazis, or russians. Hell, even in Infinite Warfare's campaign (which I enjoyed), the bad guys still ended up being soviet caricatures. People gave Dice a lot of shit about black guys in WW1 but at least they were willing to diverge, for story purposes, from the valiant white guy war hero narrative.

It's very premature, obviously, but it warrants discussion.

Edit: And just because white guys made up most of the western front doesn't mean that we need to play as them in every single damn game about it
 
QuantumZebra said:
Polygon is one of those outlets where their articles do more harm than good.

Like, they take a good stance on things, but do it in all the wrong ways with shit for evidence.
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What you're saying is the equivalent of "Hitler didn't want to kill all Jews because he was also part Jewish!" Not because they have 1 person of colour in front of a camera during their presentation, that the story told ingame is actually diverse.



Here's an exercise: Watch the gameplay trailer and note down all those diversity™ moments
 
Deepwater said:
because nobody wants to play a WW2 game and be reminded that the American Government was pretty fucking bigoted towards non white soldiers forced to serve in the war.

or rather, people pitching the games assume this. I guarantee if Sledgehammer decided to make the main campaign narrative around a non white battalion/company/unit (forgive me as I am not familiar with military org structure) some of the people kneejerking at this article would be complaining about forced diversity.

And part of me thinks this actually an Activision thing because there's a narrative that remains true in every game. American/Westernized white dudes fighting against brown terrorists, nazis, or russians. Hell, even in Infinite Warfare's campaign (which I enjoyed), the bad guys still ended up being soviet caricatures. People gave Dice a lot of shit about black guys in WW1 but at least they were willing to diverge, for story purposes, from the valiant white guy war hero narrative.

It's very premature, obviously, but it warrants discussion.

Edit: And just because white guys made up most of the western front doesn't mean that we need to play as them in every single damn game about it
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But you're going to be playing as multiple characters in the campaign, one that's confirmed is a French woman. They've also said that they will be touching on how black soldiers were treated during that period.
 
calavera_jo said:
What you're saying is the equivalent of "Hitler didn't want to kill all Jews because he was also part Jewish!" Not because they have 1 person of colour in front of a camera during their presentation, that the story told ingame is actually diverse.
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That's... a strong and misguided take, that honestly doesn't even make sense.

My point was Polygon is bashing them for ensuring diversity but only on the surface... But the game isn't even out yet so they're just shitting on it because reasons.

I don't think the Hitler thing makes sense there.

Even after the edit it still doesnt.
 
SolidSnakex said:
But you're going to be playing as multiple characters in the campaign, one that's confirmed is a French woman. They've also said that they will be touching on how black soldiers were treated during that period.
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I'm not saying the game WILL be a certain way, I am saying that it warrants discussion and it's silly to handwave concerns about it by declaring "most of the western front was white guys"
 
QuantumZebra said:
That's... a strong and misguided take, that honestly doesn't even make sense.

My point was Polygon is bashing them for ensuring diversity but only on the surface... But the game isn't even out yet so they're just shitting on it because reasons.

I don't think the Hitler thing makes sense there.

Even after the edit it still doesnt.
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So the game itself is diverse because they showed one person of colour from the dev team?
 
Deepwater said:
because nobody wants to play a WW2 game and be reminded that the American Government was pretty fucking bigoted towards non white soldiers forced to serve in the war.

or rather, people pitching the games assume this. I guarantee if Sledgehammer decided to make the main campaign narrative around a non white battalion/company/unit (forgive me as I am not familiar with military org structure) some of the people kneejerking at this article would be complaining about forced diversity.

And part of me thinks this actually an Activision thing because there's a narrative that remains true in every game. American/Westernized white dudes fighting against brown terrorists, nazis, or russians. Hell, even in Infinite Warfare's campaign (which I enjoyed), the bad guys still ended up being soviet caricatures. People gave Dice a lot of shit about black guys in WW1 but at least they were willing to diverge, for story purposes, from the valiant white guy war hero narrative.

It's very premature, obviously, but it warrants discussion.

Edit: And just because white guys made up most of the western front doesn't mean that we need to play as them in every single damn game about it
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but...aren't they doing exactly what you said in your first sentence?
 
calavera_jo said:
So the game itself is diverse because they showed one person of colour from the dev team?
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...you realize that Polygon also emphasized a perceived lack of diversity on Sledgehammer's part, correct? That's why it's relevant that one of the leads happens to be black.

We don't know how well the game deals with diversity.
 
calavera_jo said:
What you're saying is the equivalent of "Hitler didn't want to kill all Jews because he was also part Jewish!" Not because they have 1 person of colour in front of a camera during their presentation, that the story told ingame is actually diverse.



Here's an exercise: Watch the gameplay trailer and note down all those diversity™ moments
Click to expand...

2f7.png
 
Nerokis said:
...you realize that Polygon also emphasized a perceived lack of diversity on Sledgehammer's part, correct? That's why it's relevant that one of the leads happens to be black.

We don't know how well the game deals with diversity.
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But we know how the marketing does. Look at the trailer!
 
Deepwater said:
because nobody wants to play a WW2 game and be reminded that the American Government was pretty fucking bigoted towards non white soldiers forced to serve in the war.
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I'd love to see that. they can show that and show the results of the war too. infact i'd love to see a morally grey type of WW2 that shows instances of hypocricy on the allied side in regards to race and superiority while showing the germans as obviously brainwashed and morally bankrupt in many cases but also conflicted when put up against a wall. pretty much a lot of germans who fought in WW2 had second thoughts at some point about what was happening, but they were always silenced

I don't see how it would be so controversial, WAW showed similar things with the russian campaign during the assault on Berlin, BO1 as well, and BO2 even...it would show creative courage infact to go in such a direction
 
calavera_jo said:
What you're saying is the equivalent of "Hitler didn't want to kill all Jews because he was also part Jewish!" Not because they have 1 person of colour in front of a camera during their presentation, that the story told ingame is actually diverse.



Here's an exercise: Watch the gameplay trailer and note down all those diversity™ moments
Click to expand...

What you're saying is... borderline unintelligible. Not to mention people aren't even claiming that because they have a person of color in front of the camera (the development director....) but instead making a rebuttal to Polygon's claims that the cast is white-washed.

It's pretty hard to tell if the story told in-game is actually diverse because the Polygon article is not a critique of the game itself but the MARKETING for the game. Go back and read the article once and note down all those "What the hell am I arguing about"™ moments.
 
Inuhanyou said:
I'd love to see that. they can show that and show the results of the war too. infact i'd love to see a morally grey type of WW2 that shows instances of hypocricy on the allied side in regards to race and superiority while showing the germans as obviously brainwashed and morally bankrupt in many cases but also conflicted when put up against a wall. pretty much a lot of germans who fought in WW2 had second thoughts at some point about what was happening, but they were always silenced

I don't see how it would be so controversial, WAW showed similar things with the russian campaign during the assault on Berlin, BO1 as well, and BO2 even...it would show creative courage infact to go in such a direction
Click to expand...

https://youtu.be/3KQLifOQC_g?t=1m24s
 
calavera_jo said:
So the game itself is diverse because they showed one person of colour from the dev team?
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Why are you drawing ridiculous assumptions from what I'm writing?

A. I never said that was ok, but neither did Sledgehammer.

B. Polygon, nor you, have any idea how diversity is handled in the game (or in their studio). And they're shitting on it and you're defending it by pulling out Hitler analogies immediately.

You see nothing wrong there?
 
veloxStrix said:
What you're saying is... borderline unintelligible. Not to mention people aren't even claiming that because they have a person of color in front of the camera (the development director....) but instead making a rebuttal to Polygon's claims that the cast is white-washed.

It's pretty hard to tell if the story told in-game is actually diverse because the Polygon article is not a critique of the game itself but the MARKETING for the game. Go back and read the article once and note down all those "What the hell am I arguing about"™ moments.
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Black dude in front of the camera ..... check
 
calavera_jo said:
But we know how the marketing does. Look at the trailer!
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I did. Now look at the article people are discussing, where it's claimed that the supporting cast of an unreleased game does nothing but check off boxes for marketing purposes. You'll have better context for the various points being thrown around here.
 
Inuhanyou said:
I'd love to see that. they can show that and show the results of the war too. infact i'd love to see a morally grey type of WW2 that shows instances of hypocricy on the allied side in regards to race and superiority while showing the germans as obviously brainwashed and morally bankrupt in many cases but also conflicted when put up against a wall. pretty much a lot of germans who fought in WW2 had second thoughts at some point about what was happening, but they were always silenced

I don't see how it would be so controversial, WAW showed similar things with the russian campaign during the assault on Berlin, BO1 as well, and BO2 even...it would show creative courage infact to go in such a direction
Click to expand...

I'd like a deconstruction of your typical world war 2 game that's features a narrative thats more than "war is hell", campaign wise anyways.
 
calavera_jo said:
Well the hamfistedness is why CoD's marketing got called out in the article.

Including minorities where they historically weren't present just to appeal to the non-white demographics is a stupidly lazy marketing move.
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I don't think that's what they're doing though. They aren't suddenly pretending that women were frontline soldiers in the war, but having female resistance fighters? Yeah, that makes total sense and is backed up by history.
So far I didn't hear them implementing something that doesn't make any sense.
 
calavera_jo said:
Black dude in front of the camera ..... check
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So their "Development Director" being in front of the camera and being black is because of a diversity stunt and not the fact that he is the Development Director?

Unless you have proof they did that, then isnt your assumption pretty fucking absurd?


Edit: were not even discussing the article at this point so I'm calling it quits here.
 
calavera_jo said:
Black dude in front of the camera ..... check
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The reason they posted that image is to refute the claim Polygon makes at the start of the article, that the production team is 'all white'. Clearly that isn't true. The argument isn't that because there is one black man working as a lead on the game that the game must be diverse, it's that Polygon's statement is false and they clearly didn't do their research.

That isn't even people's main gripe with the article. The main gripe is that the article makes a claim, provides no evidence to support that claim, then invalidates its entire existence by saying that the claim is impossible to prove until the game comes out. If that's true, then why make an unprovable claim like that in the first place? That's why it's bad journalism.
 
Kinyou said:
Fact is we simply don't know yet. Judging the game after a single trailer is dumb
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I would say that judging by a single trailer for a game is what a lot of game journalism, gaming channels, and even people on this forum do. But this article that Polygon did was bad because they had no evidence and invalidate their own article at the same time.
 
Deepwater said:
I'm not saying the game WILL be a certain way, I am saying that it warrants discussion and it's silly to handwave concerns about it by declaring "most of the western front was white guys"
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You can have a discussion, but this article fucking terrible. It's poorly researched, as at the time it states that it's unknown if minorities and women would even be playable even though it was already confirmed that at least one of the playable characters would be female. The comment about the racial makeup of the development team is also garbage, because even if they didn't watch the dev doc that was featured in the same stream as the trailer, the least they could've done was go to their Instagram account

18011662_153599744977h7l9q.jpg


That was posted five days ago. Do some basic research before writing an article like this because it may make you step back and realize that you're jumping to conclusions.
 
SomTervo said:
Yeah, leveraging it as a checklist point isn't good. Just have it in the game. Let it speak for itself.
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That's a tough one. Some call it "virtue signaling" but I appreciate it; we are all so quick to call out people for their failures of tolerance and inclusivity. It's nice to highlight the good things, too. I bet it helps encourage others.
 
calavera_jo said:
No you're right. I'm sorry. I love Activision. They never do anything bad.
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"Oh whoopsie. Looks like I might be wrong here. Guess I should move the goalpost and double down!"

Geezo, man.

Edit: In hindsight, I think giving this (hopefully) young, growing person more attention would be detrimental to myself, theirself, and the threadsself.
 
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