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PS5 Pro/PSSR Appears to Provide Better Image Reconstruction than DLSS Running on a 4090 GPU
CitizenKratos
Member
I couldn't find any mention of PSSR lagging behind DLSS in that DF clip. Sharpness and disillusion artifacts seem to be very good in both camps.
analog_future
Resident Crybaby
Just watch the clip...
"PSSR tends to present with a bit of extra image breakup on geometric edges and foliage in comparison to DLSS"
He also mentioned that PSSR presents a slightly artificially sharpened looking image.
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Killjoy-NL
Banned
Tbh, I'm not sure if I like that.
Looks a bit over-sharpened imo.
Hopefully optional motion-blur could solve that.
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PaintTinJr
Member
Sharpening because of superior draw distance and better precision without minification artefacts is the opposite of cheap. To increase draw distance you might have to split the frustum to a cascade of frusta and do it as two or more drawing passes each with their own overdraw, but yeah let's talk down superior image quality as BS-oversharpening
mansoor1980
Member
im
not familiar with how ps does it just saying from my own experience as a child. i would always turn up the sharpness on the tv. then i saw the other posts in this thread about how it just looked sharpened.
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PaintTinJr
Member
They have video footage to take stills and isolate the 'bs-over sharpening' and do wavelet, hi frequency pass analysis, or look at the histogram graph to inspect how natural the graph is and the data concentrations or use any means to scientifically determine if it is more likely over sharpening, which it isn't, and all we get from the Nvidia sponsored crew is casting shade at superior image quality.
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analog_future
Resident Crybaby
I thought everyone kept saying they were paid for by Xbox? So they’re sponsored by Nvidia now? Which is it with you people?
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Bojji
Member
I thought everyone kept saying they were paid for by Xbox? So they’re sponsored by Nvidia now? Which is it with you people?
They are sponsored by everyone except Sony.
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it's not a bad thing, it be done it myself for videos posted to youtube, it does actually work, but you have to tweak it just right and other settings come into play like color vibrancy. too nuch sharpness and it becomes distorted for example. i think this is what the nvidia filters do more or less, but they seem to improve texture quality drastically, through a combination of gamma/contrast/vibrance/sharpness, at least just by eyeballing it, what's under the hood is another story.
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Senua
Member
I don't know what it is lately. I get accused of being an Xbox fanboy. The last Xbox I bought was a 360 in 2006 lol
I thought everyone kept saying they were paid for by Xbox? So they’re sponsored by Nvidia now? Which is it with you people?
here's a side by side comparison of with / without nvidia filters, it legit looks like improved iq unless you're familiar with the tech behind it i guess.
i looked at this guys actual settings he posted and ironically he didn't use sharpening at all, probably could have made even more of an improvement
i looked at this guys actual settings he posted and ironically he didn't use sharpening at all, probably could have made even more of an improvement
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Zathalus
Member
It might be over sharpened in some cases. The thing with upscaling is that sharpening can be a trade-off depending on use case or game. Or even something as simple as user preference. The tech director as Insomniac agreed with DF that Ratchet had too much sharpening with PSSR for example, and thus disabled a sharpening pass. Honestly the best thing to do is to have a default value with an optional slider for each users preference, like DLSS does (in most games).
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Or it could safe you 800EUR
Let's see how new games will utilise the Pro. From my experience, FPS and fidelity improvements haven't got me playing an already beaten game again. I've doubled dipped on so many PC ports after playing the console version and I never finished them again.
ChiefDada
Gold Member
I thought everyone kept saying they were paid for by Xbox? So they’re sponsored by Nvidia now? Which is it with you people?
PaintTinJr
Member
I disagree, the change in those images looks too garish and crushes as much as it adds, like an over sharpening might.
In the Pro screenshots and videos looking down the z axis of the camera into the sharp areas of imagery you can see the complexity in the shading dynamically across pixels because they are operating at a fragment(sub pixel) level which an over sharpening would would have crushed/converged and made it look worse, which isn't how the pristine Pro images and videos look.
Zathalus
Member
CitizenKratos
Member
They certainly didn’t describe it as lagging behind. And of course this claim wasn’t shown in action as it’s very subtle if it even ends up being an overall advantage.
Edit. They even show DLSS disocclusion artifacts in the ratchet and clank footage that appears worse than PSSR.
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well of course, as you articulated better than i could, the pro is doing more than just simple nvidia filters, my point was just that it can be easy to think there's an improvement in iq without realizing it's just a trick of color correction. i mean there's people who work in film and their entire job is color correction, which improves how the footage looks but it's essentially just tweaking filters. the same could be said for hdmi vs vga, nothing different happening at the source, it's just the clean signal of digital vs analog. not saying the pro is just doing color correction. but i did try and see the difference between the dlss and the pros upscaling implementation and the difference seemed less than what tricks with filter can do. either way personally i'm not one to notice, never had to use dlss i just run native higher resolution if i need to.
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Digital Foundry says PSSR is better than FSR 3.0 but still lags behind DLSS:
EDIT - Actually, I think this is new thread worthy. Going to make a new thread.
EDIT2 - Nevermind, mods won't let me I guess
Wow, that's really fucking impressive for an upscaler.
twilo99
Member
Engaging in a reasonable discussion about Sony PlayStation in these parts is like finding a quiet spot at a rock concert.
also, correct me if im wrong, but isn't the dlss implementation the same regardless of what card you're using, assuming your card supports the same version of dlss? on other words you'll see no difference in still images between a 4090 and say a 3090 when it's upscalin to the same resolution? so why use the title "better than dlss on a 4090"? seems irrelevant to say which card it's running on?
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Bojji
Member
It's the same on 2060 and on 4090 when it comes to image quality, only difference is performance.
PaintTinJr
Member
What about frame-to-frame errors and ghosting? Are they really the same for a 2060 doing 30fps versus a 4090 doing 120fps?
Bojji
Member
He was talking about still images.
EVERYTHING looks worse at lower framerate, and this is what 30fps defenders don't understand.
Thebonehead
Gold Member
So you're telling me that you got the others for free from the ambassador program.
/s obviously
PaintTinJr
Member
I thought everyone kept saying they were paid for by Xbox? So they’re sponsored by Nvidia now? Which is it with you people?
???Yes they are paid out by Nvidia. Literally....
They get sponsored by other brands but Nvidia seems to keep the lights on at DF
Digital Foundry
Digital Foundry specialises in game technology and hardware reviews, using bespoke capture and analysis tools to provide a unique look at the way games play. Video is just one dimension of what we offer - check out http://eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry for our articles and visit...www.youtube.com
PaintTinJr
Member
Which I'm guessing is exactly why the comparison is with a 4090, because brute force alone in comparing a RTX 3050 with DLSS versus an Intel Arc A770 Limited edition with XeSS would still lose on ghosting and frame-to-frame transition errors even if the stills of DLSS could be argued as superior to XeSS
That isn't strictly true, and anyone that thinks SW looks better at higher display motion fidelity like a soap opera would need to present an amazing argument for it, when audiences are and have been attuned to 24fps for nearly a century and prefer it for film, but in context of your point, in ML AI reconstruction, yes everything will look worse with inadequate processing time, and lower frame-rate at highest quality on DLSS is inferior to higher frame-rate.
At native, with proper motion handling it is horses for courses, so your statement isn't true, as the point was made by Ico/SotC director when ported to the PS3 and the clamour of DF to get them at 60fps. The director said the games were intentionally animated at 30fps to give the motion the look he intended, and that even played back at 60fps they were still 30fps animations.
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Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
So, why don't Last of Us Part 1 and Uncharted Legacy of Thieves have Pro patches? They have the EXACT same issues as LoU Part 2 when played at 1440p/60 ...these weren't even released that long ago they should be patched because right now 1440p doesn't look great in those games on PS5 and we're forced to choose Fidelity vs Performance ....
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
In every game that DF has tested, I've heard them say something about hpw PSSR has "temporal instability" aka shimmering ...almost every game from gt7>lou p2>horizon> etc. Which is disappointing news....imagine if pssr is only negligibly improved over FSR when it comes to shimmering and artifacts? That was one of the big things for why we've been clamoring for a Pro
daninthemix
Member
This thread's still going on?
Haven't the PS fanboiz been utterly slaughtered already?
Haven't the PS fanboiz been utterly slaughtered already?
analog_future
Resident Crybaby
Yes they are paid out by Nvidia. Literally....
They get sponsored by other brands but Nvidia seems to keep the lights on at DF
Digital Foundry
Digital Foundry specialises in game technology and hardware reviews, using bespoke capture and analysis tools to provide a unique look at the way games play. Video is just one dimension of what we offer - check out http://eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry for our articles and visit...
And here's a list of a bunch of different Playstation-sponsored videos they've done:
????
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brenobnfm
Member
Not only Part II is the much newer game, it's on the spotlight because of the TV show.
Zathalus
Member
I don’t think DF has ever been sponsored by Sony directly? Sony has paid for them to come to several press events, internal access, and numerous interviews with Playstation Studios, but I don’t recall a directly sponsored video.
Not that it really matters, having five or six videos sponsored by Nvidia over the past five years, out of a total of over a thousand videos is hardly the same as being bought off by Nvidia. They’ve had videos sponsored by various game companies, Nvidia, Intel, HP, Microsoft, MSI, ViewSonic, etc…
The far majority of the financials from DF come from YouTube and Patreon. Very, very few of their videos are sponsored content.
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ChiefDada
Gold Member
twilo99
Member
Indirectly is where it’s at
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
Lol. I can't believe this thread is still going. Pssr is great but it's not dlss.... Yet. It's good that Nvidia finally has some competition. Fsr has always been shit and xess is better but nobody has an Intel GPU so it doesn't matter. Pssr being good out of the box is a win for all though as it will encourage everyone to up their game.
Radical_3d
Member
It’s mental.
Senua
Member
digdug2
Member
TBF - Part 1 Remake is much newer than Part 2. But that's totally negligible at this point since both games are confirmed to be enhanced by the Pro.
Thebonehead
Gold Member
brenobnfm
Member
The Last of Us Part I › September 2, 2022
The Last of Us Part II Remastered › January 19, 2024
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PaintTinJr
Member
Very interesting. I'm not sure if this has been quoted and it is interesting that they've effectively confirmed that PSSR iterations will just come in automatically make the visuals better.
I originally thought it might mean that PSSR was re-entrant rather than typical offline 'Deep' learning, and that was maybe why the acronym didn't contain DL like DLSS, but the mention of iterations suggests it still learns offline before improving the inferencing, but certainly shines a light on Nvidia's practice of trying to lock each iteration of DLSS behind a hardware GPU series release.
PS5 Pro’s Biggest Game Improvements, According to Devs - IGN
The PS5 Pro will be bringing some upgrades to your favorite games like Spider-Man 2 and The Last of Us Part 2, and the tech leads of these games shared just exactly what we can expect with the more powerful PlayStation console.
Zathalus
Member
PaintTinJr will never surrender!
LordOcidax
Member
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