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[Zathalus]

Sony didn't send Mark Cerny at the start of this generation to be interview by zero influence nobodies called Digital Foundry, only to be insulted by them saying he was wrong, and then followed up with a correction letter about 3D audio on the PS5. They have a big platform which Sony felt they had no choice but to engage with.

Sony consider them an influential outlet and have done since the PS3 generation pretty much needing to give them technical previews of all their first party games to avoid outright negative coverage.

I've already linked you the source about when DF started. It was a consulting company back in 2004 and only started comparisons back in 2008:

Richard Leadbetter

Your trusted source for video game news, reviews and guides, since 1999.

www.eurogamer.net

Frankly having this conversation with you when you are so disconnected from reality is tiresome. Send Mark Cerny? They never sent Mark Cerny anywhere, DF and numerous other outlets were invited to cover the launch of the PS5. And considered them an influential outlet since the PS3 generation? They only got their first invite to cover something Sony related in 2016, and that was the Pro launch where DF and tons of other journalists where invited. Its one thing to be invited to various press events, but there is an enormous gap between that and dictating game development.

And negative coverage for Sony first party games? Are you living in the same reality as the rest of us? DF has a fucking orgasm over almost every single Sony first party game ever released. Sony usually makes up most of their best looking yearly lists as well.

Microsoft consider them to be an influential outlet and give them insider access with sweet trips to exclusive console reveals and sweet paid work. ...and Nvidia consider them to be an influential outlet with vital DF paid work, heck even Nintendo gave them serious time with Mario Kart 8's alleged not quite 60fps angle DF took. Nintendo probably did a placebo patch gave them an interview and got them to sign off on it being a locked 60fps.

So who in AA/AAA gaming isn't giving DF access because of their big influence, exactly? Saying their childish pixel counting didn't impact developers is like saying they didn't create the outcry for performance modes to be in most games this gen.

Do you know what these paid trips by Microsoft and Sony, as well as the occasional sponsored video by Nvidia have in common? They were all done in the past 5 years. So why are you bringing up relatively recent example to try and strengthen your point that DF apparently had this enormous influence to dictate what resolution games ran at back in the PS3 days? A generation that was already at the half way point before DF even started?

You know how I know the influence that DF has is limited? Easy:

- DF has criticized low resolution games using FSR to upsample. Still happens.
- DF continuously points out when frame drops occur on games. Still happens.
- DF point out and has led a crusade against stutters on PC. Still happens.

Doesn't appear they have that much say at the end of the day does it?

 

[Gaiff]

Sony didn't send Mark Cerny at the start of this generation to be interview by zero influence nobodies called Digital Foundry, only to be insulted by them saying he was wrong, and then followed up with a correction letter about 3D audio on the PS5. They have a big platform which Sony felt they had no choice but to engage with.

Sony consider them an influential outlet and have done since the PS3 generation pretty much needing to give them technical previews of all their first party games to avoid outright negative coverage.

Microsoft consider them to be an influential outlet and give them insider access with sweet trips to exclusive console reveals and sweet paid work. ...and Nvidia consider them to be an influential outlet with vital DF paid work, heck even Nintendo gave them serious time with Mario Kart 8's alleged not quite 60fps angle DF took. Nintendo probably did a placebo patch gave them an interview and got them to sign off on it being a locked 60fps.

So who in AA/AAA gaming isn't giving DF access because of their big influence, exactly? Saying their childish pixel counting didn't impact developers is like saying they didn't create the outcry for performance modes to be in most games this gen.

because most gamers don't even know what frame-rate is, but were still given the choice this gen despite it being far more work for developers that didn't choose that path as alluded to by Cerny in the pro reveal where he states developers were struggling to have enough performance to realise their visions(paraphrasing obviously)

Yes, because everyone knows that companies giving exclusive access to media outlets means their dev teams will completely change course just so they won't be criticized by them. They'll change the rendering budgets, resolution, and frame rate targets just because of DF. Worked fucking wonders for the stuttering on PC.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

For somebody who hates DF, you vastly, vastly overstate the influence and impact they have had on game development. Especially during the PS3/360 days, when they averaged only a few thousand views per video and way under 100k subscribers on YouTube. They didn't even exist for the first few years of the PS3 and 360.

I pretty confident no developer was thinking we better need to hit resolution target X otherwise DF will criticize us. I'd be shocked if most developers (never mind game publishers) even knew who they were back then.

Cheap wide-screen HD televisions came on the market so videogames had to become HD too.

 

[PaintTinJr]

I've already linked you the source about when DF started. It was a consulting company back in 2004 and only started comparisons back in 2008:

Richard Leadbetter

Your trusted source for video game news, reviews and guides, since 1999.

www.eurogamer.net

Frankly having this conversation with you when you are so disconnected from reality is tiresome.

You are being completely disingenuous because Richard - possibly for copyright reasons with REXL/gamer network - pulled all his old articles of that era and edited and republished some - maybe in 2021 going by wayback machine earliest captures - such as this

VF5 as good on 360

Sega has revealed the first shots of Virtua Fighter 5 running on the Xbox 360, and the good news is that the game is vi…

web.archive.org

This is a 16th of May 2007 article face off of sorts, even though it has been changed from the original content, and clearly has an earlier date than your claimed 2008, when he was capturing 16bit colour then 24bit colour in the gen before the PS3/360, as I clearly didn't dream that reading that a year or two after it was published by him.

 

[Zathalus]

You are being completely disingenuous because Richard - possibly for copyright reasons with REXL/gamer network - pulled all his old articles of that era and edited and republished some - maybe in 2021 going by wayback machine earliest captures - such as this

VF5 as good on 360

Sega has revealed the first shots of Virtua Fighter 5 running on the Xbox 360, and the good news is that the game is vi…

web.archive.org

This is a 16th of May 2007 article face off of sorts, even though it has been changed from the original content, and clearly has an earlier date than your claimed 2008, when he was capturing 16bit colour then 24bit colour in the gen before the PS3/360, as I clearly didn't dream that reading that a year or two after it was published by him.

Alright, so an article from 2007 that features no pixel counting at all is proof of DF having so much influence with developers regarding resolutions due to pixel counting?

DF had articles back in 2007, like for The Darkness, NBA 2K7, Rainbow Six: Vegas, Oblivion, etc... Those articles are still up, I even linked them in my previous post. You’ll see quite a lack of pixel counting in those earlier comparisons. It was rudimentary guesses and thoughts about output resolutions like setting your TV to 720p vs 1080i kind of thing, and with some images to compare yourself. They didn’t even have fps graphs on video yet. Hardly enough to sway the development of an entire generation.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Alright, so an article from 2007 that features no pixel counting at all is proof of DF having so much influence with developers regarding resolutions due to pixel counting?

DF had articles back in 2007, like for The Darkness, NBA 2K7, Rainbow Six: Vegas, Oblivion, etc... Those articles are still up, I even linked them in my previous post. You’ll see quite a lack of pixel counting in those earlier comparisons. It was rudimentary guesses and thoughts about output resolutions like setting your TV to 720p vs 1080i kind of thing, and with some images to compare yourself. They didn’t even have fps graphs on video yet. Hardly enough to sway the development of an entire generation.

They had articles per month/week years before that, or are you saying that the current articles haven't been edited?

I mean can you even link to original archive.org mirrors of the remaining articles from when they were published? And do you disagree with my take that DF article from the beginning have been largely removed, and those tiny amount that remain have been rewritten and had most of the screenshots and the original videos removed?

https://web.archive.org/web/2014120.../threads/list-of-rendering-resolutions.41152/

Games like VF5 on PS3 - and many others in the list - pre date 2008, and yet their resolutions are in the Jan 2008 beyond3d published lists - which again have archive.org first mirror dates 6years after the thread was posted - but these lists were compiled from DF pixel counting, so it is logical that the source for such info was DF articles prior to 2008 that have since been removed.

 

[Gaiff]

They had articles per month/week years before that, or are you saying that the current articles haven't been edited?

I mean can you even link to original archive.org mirrors of the remaining articles from when they were published? And do you disagree with my take that DF article from the beginning have been largely removed, and those tiny amount that remain have been rewritten and had most of the screenshots and the original videos removed?

https://web.archive.org/web/2014120.../threads/list-of-rendering-resolutions.41152/

Games like VF5 on PS3 - and many others in the list - pre date 2008, and yet their resolutions are in the Jan 2008 beyond3d published lists - which again have archive.org first mirror dates 6years after the thread was posted - but these lists were compiled from DF pixel counting, so it is logical that the source for such info was DF articles prior to 2008 that have since been removed.

So still absolutely nothing, yet you keep doubling down. "Debating" with you is infuriating. If it’s not a bunch of strawmen, it’s ignoring cold hard evidence all the while coming up with your own conclusions with basically nothing to back yourself up.

You’re arguing here that DF swayed an entire generation of devs because of their pixel counting, but you can produce fucking nothing to support your claims. I don’t even think they had a youtube channel back then, and if their influence was anywhere near as grand as you like to pretend, it wouldn’t be hard at all to prove. You should have a myriad of popular articles, videos, etc, of them doing just that, but you got nothing.

Just take the L, say you were being hyperbolic and move on. Nah, you have to just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper.

 

[Edgelord79]

Be cool if Sony could port this tech to PC and give Nvidia some competition. But that’s not gonna happen.

 

[PaintTinJr]

So still absolutely nothing, yet you keep doubling down. "Debating" with you is infuriating. If it’s not a bunch of strawmen, it’s ignoring cold hard evidence all the while coming up with your own conclusions with basically nothing to back yourself up.

You’re arguing here that DF swayed an entire generation of devs because of their pixel counting, but you can produce fucking nothing to support your claims. I don’t even think they had a youtube channel back then, and if their influence was anywhere near as grand as you like to pretend, it wouldn’t be hard at all to prove. You should have a myriad of popular articles, videos, etc, of them doing just that, but you got nothing.

Just take the L, say you were being hyperbolic and move on. Nah, you have to just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper.

You tell me, can you find all the articles where DF told Sony quincunx was like smearing Vaseline on their tele that all devs stop using the free AA hardware accelerated feature? I can't, which no surprise VF5 on PS3 uses no AA, and gives no option to use it despite it being zero performance impact as an ASIC feature.

 

[Donald mac Ronald]

If pssr really is better than the AMD solution fsr like how can this happen?

Amd is a GPU manufacturer with fingers in developing drivers and software and now AI. Its been developing this tech for years to compete with Nvidia and dlss.

So how can Sony come long and just cream them with a superior solution, when Sony themselves use AMD hardware? Doesn't sound like it's possible.

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

Cheap wide-screen HD televisions came on the market so videogames had to become HD too.

transition to widescreen was so janky.
pc had hit-or-miss support for years.

then the ps360 gen hit and like everything had widescreen support overnight.
there'd still be people half-assing it... think bioshock1 widescreen on pc was just the camera zoomed in to fill a 16:9 window, ha.

not exactly sure why im commenting, but uh thank you consoles for standardizing/popularizing stuff in the industry.

 

[octos]

If pssr really is better than the AMD solution fsr like how can this happen?

Amd is a GPU manufacturer with fingers in developing drivers and software and now AI. Its been developing this tech for years to compete with Nvidia and dlss.

So how can Sony come long and just cream them with a superior solution, when Sony themselves use AMD hardware? Doesn't sound like it's possible.

Hardware is irrelevant, FSR is an inferior algorithm because it's using human-made rules, whereas PSSR like DLSS is using self learning with Neural Networks. Basically the whole process has been automated: you feed the algorithm a stream of images rendered at a low resolution, and the same stream but rendered at a high resolution like 4k, and you tell it: this is the input, and this is the desired output, and it learns, and then you can apply that network to a new stream and it upscales like magic.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Be cool if Sony could port this tech to PC and give Nvidia some competition. But that’s not gonna happen.

Might happen with the ports.

 

[Zathalus]

They had articles per month/week years before that, or are you saying that the current articles haven't been edited?

I mean can you even link to original archive.org mirrors of the remaining articles from when they were published? And do you disagree with my take that DF article from the beginning have been largely removed, and those tiny amount that remain have been rewritten and had most of the screenshots and the original videos removed?

https://web.archive.org/web/2014120.../threads/list-of-rendering-resolutions.41152/

Games like VF5 on PS3 - and many others in the list - pre date 2008, and yet their resolutions are in the Jan 2008 beyond3d published lists - which again have archive.org first mirror dates 6years after the thread was posted - but these lists were compiled from DF pixel counting, so it is logical that the source for such info was DF articles prior to 2008 that have since been removed.

DF were not the only ones that started pixel counting. Plenty of users on this forum and Beyond did it themselves. The ability to do so wasn’t something they created considering how easy it is, although they really took off with it from 2008. Heck a huge amount of that list is from games DF never even covered, like most of the PSN and XBLA games for example. I see you also claim that because of DF devs stopped QAA despite that very list having dozens of games that used it, well up to the end of the generation.

While we’re on this list, it’s once again not evidence of this influence you claim they had. A list on an ultra hardcore obscure forum is not really evidence of much. It’s just evidence that a few hundred nerds wanted the info for curiosity or platform warring.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

So how can Sony come long and just cream them with a superior solution, when Sony themselves use AMD hardware? Doesn't sound like it's possible.

Well, it could be one of two reasons:

1) AMD is developing their own tech in parallel that has not yet released, but will soon.

Or

2) AMD was simply late to the game and Sony had the resources to invest in this technique for their own platform instead.

It is interesting that Sony is creating their own patented PSSR technique, because you would think AMD would have their own methodology otherwise that they'd use instead....