PSM: PS4 specs more powerful than Xbox 720
- Thread starter [Nintex]
- Start date
- Status
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Well rumors are all we have for discussion on this discussion board at the moment.
And either way, 6x-8x, are both miniscule updates to power.
Xbox to Xbox 360 and PS2 to PS3 were much larger bumps in horse power.
When you take into account that the Xbox launched in November of 2001 and the 360 in November of 2005
Then take into account the 360 came out in 2005 and the 720 is likley to launch in 2013....
The jump in horsepower should be 20x+..
6x to 8x will only get current gen games to like current gen PC games. (IE BF3 at 1080p 60fps)
That is NOT the generational gap we could easily be and should be getting.
Hell the iPad 3 is rumored to have 20x the graphics capability of an iPad 2 and it released last freaking year...
Was Xbox to 360 really that big of a jump? Xbox 1 was a beast and had some great looking games.
AceBandage
Banned
1. We're looking at a worse economy and the fact that modern GPUs put out too much heat and power for a normal console.
2. You're trying to compare mobile tech to desktops which is ridiculous because mobile tech catching up at an insane rate.
Yes, the graphical difference and added resolution does not come free.. (just a resolution jump needed 3x pixel processing power..)
RoboFu
One of the green rats
the leap this gen was an unusual leap caused by MS trying to out muscle sony to gain market share. It was never the norm. but besides the 16bit era there has always been a completely new technology going with each gen. Next gen is goingot be more like going from the 8 bit to 16bit. its all going to be about image quality.
Every statement in BigTnaples' post is wrong :-\ Even that iPad 3 rumour doesn't exist. He's referring to Imagination Technologies' overblown statement that their next line of GPUs would be 20x more powerful, which is a gross exaggeration and will take years to integrate in consumer tech.
H_Prestige
Banned
Sony isn't going to throw away their entire PSN store that they've built up over the last several years over night. Vita is BC with PSP software only so they can continue selling their DD stuff and PS4 will be BC for the same reason. And you can't re-release PS3 games, they're already made for HDTVs.
Shin Johnpv
Member
I'm predicting the PS4 to end up using an AMD CPU. All of the rumors about the system has hinted to this, and we even had an AMD employee on this board awhile back admit to working on it.
People expecting Cell, or multiple Cells are going to be disappointed.
People expecting Cell, or multiple Cells are going to be disappointed.
Projectjustice
Banned
If this happen will PS4 be BC with PS3?
Portugeezer
Member
'PSM3 report points to Xbox launch "months" before PlayStation'
Yeah, 24 months before.
After all the crap teh Cell gave them, developers finally up to scratch with it, you think they will scrap it? I can't see it.
Yeah, 24 months before.
After all the crap teh Cell gave them, developers finally up to scratch with it, you think they will scrap it? I can't see it.
Lagspike_exe
Member
How do we know that the AMD CPU won't end up in Next Box?
Maybe about being wrong, but a conventional setup is going to be beneficial for the PS4. Multiple Cells would kill the thing's price and effectiveness.
Cell can be included as a seperate chip, and be used for all sorts of things, most notably image post processing.
This is why 60 fps is of such utter importance, much more so than higher resolution. How it looks in motion is what everything is all about and 30 isn´t even close to cutting it.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
That's more up to developers, though, isn't it? I doubt we get anywhere near a majority of games at 60 fps next generation.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
60 fps is needed when you do not have the IQ there. WIth good IG and post processing effects 30 fps would be just fine.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
The jump was huge.
Just look at Kotor to Mass Effect.
to this at 720p
Or Morrowind
To Skyrim
Now we are talking about the 360 to 720 be being basically this.
to this @ 1080p 60fps
When decent PC's right NOW a year before these consoles launch are capable of THIS.
Some of that is due to diminishing returns. But only some of it.
With any kind of decent hardware the consoles could absolutely destroy BF3 graphically.
A 6x-8x leap using old as hell hardware is not going to do it though.
brain_stew
Member
Exactly, why spend money giving something away something for free (BC) when your customers are happy to buy it from you?
I respect your opinion but i totally disagree. You cannot fake smooth gameplay by smearing out the image with motion blur.
brain_stew
Member
For starters, you're going to need to develop a completely new PPE, heck you're going to need multiple new PPEs. Having multiple PPEs means you're going to have to rework the internal bus and cache structure significantly. This isn't a simple tweak, its going to require significant R and D to get to where you need to be, and all for what? To offer PS3 BC? Please. Sony don't fund new CPU and architecture development anymore, IBM and AMD have already sunk those costs, so why not take advantage of that?
That's what UVD is. ARM SOCs don't use NEON to decode video, they have dedicated hardware for that, just like modern GPUs. NEON is nothing more than a basic SIMD unit.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
My biggest wish is for MS and Sony to include dedicated hardware on the system to give EVERY game 4xAA and 16xAF.
Make it so devs can't work around it, and have it force those options for every single game.
If they could pull that off the difference would be astounding.
Most of today's console games like Gears 3, Forza 4, Uncharted 3, etc would look worlds better if only they had 4xAA and 16xAF.
bgassassin
Member
And just what kind of dedicated hardware are you imagining to achieve this?
And in power consumption. Honestly, it's not that hard to understand now, is it?
PS1 to PS2 to PS3 were huge increases in processing power, but also huge increases in power consumption and cooling requirements. I posted pictures of the respective heatsinks a few days ago to illustrate that often overlooked fact. But that venue is pretty much maxed out, the PS4 won't be designed with a 1000W power budget in mind. On the contrary, it's likely console manufacturers will try to get power consumption down next gen.
Sorry dude, could you expand on the bolded?
I don't think sticking with Cell (or a variant of it) is only about PS3 BC... It'd be interesting to hear the views of a 3rd party dev on the path to take. I mean even the guys who don't "get the most out of Cell" must have some familiarity with the dev tools etc.
if you switch from a CELL, to a more 'standard' CPU with 3-4 cores, how does that affect the few developers that have worked really hard to get nicely threaded code working across the PPE + SPUs? No disadvantages at all moving from more simple processors (SPUs) to fewer but fatter proessors in a traditional setup?
Don't you think that if this was even remotely possible, PC graphics cards would have had this a long time ago? I think you need to read up about the stuff that you're asking.
BC is more important next gen than this, IMO. Mainly because of digital distribution. People will have larger collections of minis, PSN games and full PS3 games downloaded - is it acceptable to just say 'nah, they'll only work on your PS3'?
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Who said anything about 1000W power? No one to my knowledge. Having a bigger leap than 6x would not require anything close to 1000W of power.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
It is possible but to get the latency low enough the cost would be too much and the cards too big.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Even remotely possible? I am positive it is possible. I have not disabled 16xAF in my video card options on any of my PC's in over a decade. I have forced it in EVERY single game I have played since 2000. Never once did I disable it for a performance increase.
Now you are saying that doing the same in a console is literally impossible?
Unlikely? Yeah, definitely. That's why I said I wish. (Especially in regards to it being separate HW. I would settle for just locking out the options in firmware)
Impossible? Not even close.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
What is 6x though exactly? what does that mean?
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
I take it to mean 6x the power of the console. 6x the processing capability of a 360.
A large chunk of that 6x increase would be used up just to get the games to 1080p assuming that is what 720p was to this gen.
The increase in power, already on the low side, would be lower right off that bat assuming a 1080p semi standard.
All of this is just speculation as you said. I very much doubt that MS would release a console after 7 years that did not blow away the 360 graphically.
However these discussions are fun.
Shin Johnpv
Member
Because the rumors around the Next Box have been consistent with using an IBM CPU, while the rumors around the PS4 have been consistent around an AMD APU, or CPU.
Ohh no I didn't mean disappointed performance wise, I meant because they were wrong. I fully agree that updating Cell or using multiple Cells is a good way for Sony to shoot themselves in the foot again.
I just meant it's not going to be their CPU in the PS4.
vandaliser
Banned
It would be really stupid of yoshida to tell kaz and his PD wizards to suddenly dump all their cell codes they have amassed all these years to transition to a new type of processor. It actually beggers believe that there are people here who think that is a good idea when current CPU in the ps3 is scalable.
Someone should get one of sony first party devs on here to share their views
RoboFu
One of the green rats
The numbers are BS. the xbox 360 is not even 6x the processing power of the xbox. SHOCKER huh!?
At most it is only around 2.5 if we are adding numbers. It is just a collection of more advanced hardware that can do more tricks.
It will be the same next gen. We will get hardware that can do more tricks. Adding the numbers will again only get you around 1.5 to 2x the actual processing power.
These numbers people give out are just BS abstract measurements of what they think the final product will LOOk like to the average player.
bgassassin
Member
Their first-party devs aren't the only ones developing for the console. It is plausible that they are thinking about all devs and want something that they could develop for with a much lower learning curve.
gundamkyoukai
Member
But how much learning curve is there going to be if they use Cell.
Cell is scalable it's not like they have to relearn everything plus they already have tool etc etc.
If anything Devs would much rather Sony not split the ram again which i am sure not going to happen .
Shin Johnpv
Member
It's not so soon. This generation is fucking long in the tooth. It's time for it to end and move on. We'll be at 7 years come November. That's long enough.
I just don't get some people. They bitch about wanting more powerful hardware then what is being hinted for next gen, and then also want these consoles to be active for 7+ years.
5 year generations with the kind of upgrade where seeing rumored about, giving us affordable new consoles, is the way to go. So much better than 599.99 consoles that have to stick around for 7 - 8 years for people to break even on, that never hit a mass market price.
I say give me a more modest jump every 5/6 years instead of some crazy expensive huge jump every 7 - 10.
brain_stew
Member
The 360 was released over 6 years ago, it feels weird that we're not talking about the Xbox 3's second generation software.
I mentioned the likely desire in that scenario to integrate a different Power core as PPE. But I don't know if would be necessary to develop a 'completely new PPE', from scratch. They would need to customise something to work with the EIB, and that would grow the design job vs a simple scaling of the original, but I'm not sure if we'd be in prohibitively expensive territory with that. It's still nothing like the scope of the original Cell project.
The motivation to do this vs other designs isn't a debate I'm getting into - merely where it would be a massive job to do the above, whether it can be ruled out as a possibility on grounds of cost.
(On a different side note re. sunk costs, I think it would be interesting to see how IBM's next designs could apply to the problem, if at all. 7+ and 8 appear to be hybrid designs that stitch powerPC to accelerators and 'more accelerators' respectively. We know nothing more about them for now but it'll be interesting to see what kind of accelerator is there and what kind of bus... not to suggest some automagic spu compliance and performance compatibility with PS3-Cell (which would be incredibly handy for Sony), but there may be work there that could be piggybacked on if Sony wanted revised/'new' design with BC)
Considering we didn't hear a thing about these consoles yet, no real leaks even, I doubt we'll see either of them this year, more likely the following, thus 8 freaking years. It's terrible. This hardware is beat, both Online services are beat and hopefully new hardware will bring along new iterations of their online services to boot.
Usually, I'm bored out of my mind with consoles the final year/months leading to the launch of new hardware. Not this time. I've been bored for a while.
The longer they wait not only will nintendo possibly benefit from this debacle, but also PC gaming. Just recently another friend got sick and tired of the dated looking console games and tech and just got a killer gaming rig.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa, what is this crazy talk about using AMD CPU?
I'm sure Intel would never agree to bring the price down to MS and Sony's liking, but AMD? Their recent bulldozer CPU was just miserable piles of secrets. They can't even pull their own shit together.
Besides IF sony is using AMD CPU, that means sony will use their SoC (fusion) platform, not Nvidia graphic card. Sony WILL do all chips in one design next gen, that much is guaranteed.
In short, not likely going to happen.
I'm sure Intel would never agree to bring the price down to MS and Sony's liking, but AMD? Their recent bulldozer CPU was just miserable piles of secrets. They can't even pull their own shit together.
Besides IF sony is using AMD CPU, that means sony will use their SoC (fusion) platform, not Nvidia graphic card. Sony WILL do all chips in one design next gen, that much is guaranteed.
In short, not likely going to happen.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
I think that the PS4 will follow the VITA´s exemple and put all games on PSN on release day.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
The 360 is more than 6x the power of a 360...
Just take the resolutions
640x480= 307,200 pixels.
1280x720= 921,600 pixels.
That's 3x the power right there just to hit 720p.
(1920x1080 =2,073,600 pixels for the 720 would be about 2.5x the power of a 360 just to reach 1080p with current gen games)
Then factor in the actual graphical improvements from games on xbox >360
Kotor> Mass Effect 3
Morrowind>Skyrim
GTA III> GTAV
Halo 2>Halo Reach
Forza>Forza 4.
Battlefield>BF3
Take into account poly counts, texture resolution, number of NPC's, draw distance, physics, lighting, AI, destruction, etc. etc.
Tell me that is not more than 6x the horsepower of an xbox.
At any rate, as I have already said, I think these rumors are over blown, and I highly doubt MS will release a console successor after 7 years that is not a substantial leap in graphical fidelity.
And As you said, the 6x the power metric is probably some BS number made up along the way.
MS is not going to slap a 6670 in the 720 and call it a day. They just wont.
Now does that mean I am saying they will make the 720 a 1000W 8 core CPU with 16gb of ram and crossfire 7990's? No. That would be impossible.
I just think that MS will make the jump in power, even when taking into account the power need just to run at 1920x1080p, worthwhile.
That is all.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Why would Sony bend over backward to implement BC while they can rework their games for very low cost and resell them for high profit margin? BC stopped making sense for both manufacturers and publishers.
I'm more wondering where the supposed consistency of this rumour is? AFAIK, rumours have linked PS4 to pretty much every CPU vendor to date.
I remember when Sony was supposedly evaluating Larrabee, then there was talk that they discarded that idea, then talk they were working on a Power design with IBM, but went back to the drawing board on that too (the suggestion being that Sony was shelving ideas to target a later launch date and manufacturing process). At least, that was the Watch Impress version of events.
I can't even remember what the AMD rumour was?
The motivation and cost/technical feasibility debates are two different ones...I wasn't engaged in the former. I am/was more questioning why it would be prohibitively expensive to go that kind of route assuming the desire/motivation was there on Sony's end in the first place.
- Status