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[mashoutposse]

Time and time again, it has been proven that gamers will buy what they want, even if it means spending a bit more. GC has been the cheapest console the entire time, yet it is dead last by a wide margin in every territory without an anti-Western console bias.

Put PSP and DS side by side, and watch the importance of that $50 difference dwindle down to nothing.

 

[bryanbr]

Um, the PS1 was also thrust into a largely teen/pre-teen gaming market where carts and relatively low console prices ruled the roost. Look at the end result of that endeavor.

The more I look at the situation today, the more I am convinced that history will repeat itself.

Um, the PS1 was not a handheld gaming machine that requires media that can stand up to the punishment of a handheld gaming machine.

Um, the game development for the PS1 was not cost considerable more than its competitors.

Um, the cost of the PS1 itself was not considerably more than the cost of its competitors.

Um, the cost of first party games for the PS1 were not considerably more than the cost of its competitors.

Um, the PS1 did not require its userbase to purchase an unheard of amount of games per console in order to make a profit than its competitors.

Umm, your comparison makes no sense.

 

[DCharlie]

"When PSP price in yen was announced, the exchange rate put it at about 165 bucks. Since then it's rised to about 185 bucks. This is the norm for products launching in the east first. The East always pays higher exchange prices. This has been the case for most consoles, and the only exception I can think of is the Xbox. In Japan, the price of the PS2 converted is roughly 192 bucks (19,800 yen). Do we pay 200 dollars for the PS2? No, we pay 150. I expect that the PSP will be 150 when it releases as well. Don't be foolish."

Um... the base PSP is 19800 yen (which at your rate, is 192$)

The packaged PSP is currently at 25600 (which at your rate , is 248$)

with the $ on the way down, that may well be even worse by the time of launch, and i'm not sure sony will be that keen on taking an exchange loss ontop of a per-unit tech cost loss.

The price history of the PS2 started when the $ was stronger. If sony come in and put a $150 tag on the PSP with the dollar sinking by the day, then they are even ballsier than i thought.... they'd be eating tech costs and a potentially growing exchange loss.

If they set the price at $200+, then they can at least revise downwards...

 

[Deg]

Put PSP and DS side by side, and watch the importance of that $50 difference dwindle down to nothing.

Then put side by side with the GBnext

PSP is pretty cheap too.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Did you see what you get with the The 185.00 dollar PSP barebones kit? You get a powercord and a cardboard box. Where are you going to save your games to? How are you going to protect that screen?

You're going by pure assumption. It is ASSUMED that the PSP will be 185. You're ASSUMING that they'll throw in a carrying case, 32MB mem stick a mic, and headphones for an additional 65 dollars (Which is rediculous). You're ASSUMING that people will see the starter's pack as something worth shelling out the extra dough for. And you know what you do when you Assume. Hint: Ass-U-Me

The low ball 185.00 dollar price, which is what is converted to at the time of the announcement, is a PR price. It was put out for purposes of HYPE. A number for fanboys to slobber over. The real price of the PSP, which includes a memstick, case, etc, two essential accessories was around 250.00. Why don't you price those parts separately and get back to me on how much extra you will be paying for the PSP?

No, the 185 dollar price point is GA assumption. MORE assumption. You won't address the REST of my post. The price in yen is official, it is what the PSP will launch at in Japan in about 2 weeks. However, whatever American price has not been shown or revealed in any form from Sony. You're basing your argument on the assumption of online message board forum members. Sony's offering two PSP packages: The 'bare bones" pack and a Starter's Kit pack. I can go out and purchase a 32MB MemStick for less than 10 dollars and I very heavily doubt the other additions garner the lost 55+ dollars.
(Can only find the price of a 64MB memstick which is 8 bucks on pricewatch so 32MB is definitely lower. I can also find a 128MB Pro Duo for 35 on pricewatch. Even if Sony made the memstick included with the kit 128MB it'd stilll be way under your ASSUMED 65 dollar additional price)

What exactly about the well known analysis of the state of the handheld market is baseless assumption? You apparently can't accept well known facts (75% of the market is under 18).

I will tell it to you real simple like, cause you don't seem to be understanding much else:

<b>Kids won't be buying the PSP and enough adults won't buy it to make the platform feasible.</b>

Not true. The only 'serious' (As in ever really had a chance at selling well) gaming handhelds released so far were made to appeal to the younger market. It's VERY early to judge a new handheld's selling power when it's main aim is to sell to an older market. There's also the thing about the PSP appealing to people who do not play games much, since it IS a movie/MP3 player on the side. Besides, you're discrediting Nintendo's effort to make the DS 'less kiddy' as well. So are you saying the DS will be a huge failure as well?

Due to lower cost of development GBA and to a certain extent DS games can be profitable with unit sales in the mere 10s of thousands. That just isn't possible with the PSP.

Pure fanaticism. It depends on the effort of the developers how much the games will cost to make profit. I'm sure the DS cost to make games will be much lower, but when you apply the many various other factors (middleware, improved sales) it's more complex than you could possibly understand. Even on the hard-to-program-for PS2 there was a Fantavision.

After the two to three million hardcore handheld gaming fans worldwide have spent their 400.00 dollars on one PSP and a few games, and no one else is interested, the PSP will die a horribly grissly, money sucking death. Best case scenario is a long period of hibernation for the PSP. In five to six years time it might have a chance if they have:

Fixed the battery problem
Reduced the price to 99.00
Introduced unscratcheable, unbreakable optical media
Convince millions of adults to stop playing XBox 3 and PS4 to play a handheld

This is past fantacism. This is now stepping into the bounds of delirium. Honestly... how stupid? If 2 - 3 million spend 400 bucks on the PSP and it's games, they've raised the attach ratio to near unprecedented levels, thus deflecting YOUR OWN point about developers' fear of profit, and you've given Sony a HUUUUUUUUUGE pocketbook lining. That's about 6 or 7 games from the get-go!

How is the PSP 'Money-sucking'? for all you know, Sony's making a great profit from it, since there's no real intel on how much Sony's losing per PSP. If it's sucking gamers' money, then it's doing something VERY RIGHT! That's a positive thing, since the PSP requires no additional batteries like systems like the GameGear required.

Sony expects the PSP to outsell the DS from the get-go.
Sony makes many revisions to hardware after launch, and this has held true for both it's home consoles and portable entertainment devices. No idea the effect on battery life. and even still, you're going off of pure speculation.
If the PSP is 99, you can count the DS dead. Seriously, what's your malfunction? The PSP is already looking to be a strong contender out the gates at 150.
Sony's delivering content (Games) on memstick as well. And UMDs are MORE DURABLE than Sony's MiniDisks, meaning you've little to worry about. Treat it as you would a cart.
I'm tired of your stupid bull. I hope you aren;t serious. The PSP launches in TWO WEEKS in Japan and 3 months in the US. The buzz is huge.

Now given that they won't be able to convince millions of adults to stop playing XBox 2 and PS2 to play a PSP, I don't see anyone doing the same for XBox 3 and PS 4.

Dude... You're fanatical. It's hilarious.

 

[Hardknock]

Im not a sony defendor and I am not the only who is happy that these trolls are banned. You know that if they were doing the same toward any other systems they would have still been banned. Show me who has a history of trolling worse than these two. By the way I have defened GC and Xbox several times.

...anyways, back to NFSU2.

I've already pointed out that Mrparissm doesn't troll anywhere near what you make him out to. And there are several in this very thread that have came to his defense aswell. You are just overly defensive about anything Sony, and hated the poor kid because his opinion differed from yours... That's just pathetic. :lol And not to mention that You've actually done quite a bit of trolling yourself, and so has Amir0x, MAF, and several others, but you don't see them banned.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Um... the base PSP is 19800 yen (which at your rate, is 192$)

The packaged PSP is currently at 25600 (which at your rate , is 248$)

with the $ on the way down, that may well be even worse by the time of launch, and i'm not sure sony will be that keen on taking an exchange loss ontop of a per-unit tech cost loss.

The price history of the PS2 started when the $ was stronger. If sony come in and put a $150 tag on the PSP with the dollar sinking by the day, then they are even ballsier than i thought.... they'd be eating tech costs and a potentially growing exchange loss.

If they set the price at $200+, then they can at least revise downwards...

I'm talking current-day prices of the PS2 in Japan vs US. It's been pure speculation on the 'fact' that there's a per-unit loss so large it's unrecouperable via selling a few games. We cannot predict Dollar vs Yen 3 months from now as it stands. All we have on the North American PSP price are assumption and speculation. Why everyone seems die-hard to cast the PSP as 200+ and up escapes me.

 

[maharg]

The rapid changes in exchange rates put doubt on any new product's pricing across currency boundaries. Especially if the NDS is selling for more in the US than in Japan as someone above said. The NDS is also selling for about $25 more in Canada than the exchange rate would imply, and more like $35 more than it would have a couple years ago at the previous exchange rates.

Not saying either way, but Sony USA is still going to have to manage its own profit levels when it comes out here, and charging directly across the exchange rate may not do that successfully any more than it used to.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

It's true that Japan usually pays more than us for their gaming fix. But if The Nintendo DS is any indication(which is selling in Japan for like $135 I think?) and selling $150 here. The PSP may follow that same trend and decide to sell the PSP at $200 which would be the base unit without the extras. So yes $250 for the package deal is not out of the question I think.

The exchange rate for the DS at 15000 yen is $145.50 Not that big of a jump.

 

[Deg]

no one ever contested that PSP was going to be huge. The hype is expected afterall its Sony's first handheld system. What is surprising is how popular the DS has become. Especially when you look at how DS began.

 

[Amir0x]

Did you see what you get with the The 185.00 dollar PSP barebones kit? You get a powercord and a cardboard box. Where are you going to save your games to? How are you going to protect that screen?

You also get a battery recharger, just so we're clear. Similarly, the screen has its own method of protection - a strong coating which is what Sony is apparantely using. Will it offer more protection than a clamshell design? Absolutely not! But based on reports of just how strong the protection is, it's not going to get scratched unless you're the type of douchebag who plays football with your PSP.

How powerful is this scratch-proof coating? According to test results, it took a knife to the face to make TDK's formula flinch. The article's author was able to scour the scratch-proofed surface of a CD with a brillo pad, and still was unable to scuff the surface. Permanent marker ink also wiped right off the surface. According to the disc's makers, only by gouging away at the screen with a knife have they been able to damage the surface.

Source

Although it is unconfirmed precisely what is being used on the PSP screen, it is known that Sony is experimenting with a formula that is remarkably similar to the one posted in this article. So, as you can see, it is not impossible to protect a screen without a cover. Is it desirable that you have a case or a clamshell design? Perhaps. But that's hardly reason to complain about, because my GBA, my GBC and my GB did not have covers and they all still work fine with relatively little damage on their screens - and they didn't even have screen protection! I'm aware that if you're irresponsible it might be a different story, but I'm not so that's irrelevant.

The low ball 185.00 dollar price, which is what is converted to at the time of the announcement, is a PR price. It was put out for purposes of HYPE. A number for fanboys to slobber over. The real price of the PSP, which includes a memstick, case, etc, two essential accessories was around 250.00. Why don't you price those parts separately and get back to me on how much extra you will be paying for the PSP?

Are we to say, then, that the DS costs an extra fifty dollars because you need a game and a headphones to get the most mileage? Or will you just play the demo over and over again and hope someone else actually has a DS so you can use Pictochat? The PSP extra set comes with a memory card, a case and headphones. At current exchange rates, it's 235-242 dollars. Will it be 250 when it comes to the states? Perhaps, it's not beyond the realm of possibility. All this semantics are just skating around what is important, though, because either way the PSP will cost more than DS.

The question is, then, will people be willing to buy the PSP at the enhanced price? The PSP is certainly worth the price it is at given the technology it utilizes, but will people make that jump? I'll answer that when posed with your questions that follow:

What exactly about the well known analysis of the state of the handheld market is baseless assumption? You apparently can't accept well known facts (75% of the market is under 18).

First of all, something is not a "fact" unless you can find a viable source to back it up. I can use statistics too to back up any argument I make, but it's mostly bullshit unless I can find something that would back up my statement. Please note that I'm not saying your statistic is false, but from here on out please make sure you utilize sources for your statistics otherwise they're essentially void. You seem to enjoy debating, so make sure you actually know how to debate.

But, for the purposes of this argument, let's assume your statistic is correct. 75% of the market is under 18. Now, I'll assume the "market" you are talking about is only directed at those who have previously purchased handhelds. I'll also assume the "market" you are talking about is not related to those who buy consoles. So now we have a clean slate: There are 75% of the handheld gaming market who is under 18. 25% of the market, then, must not be under 18.

In this case, then, Sony is aiming to create a new market, thus expanding the boundaries of the market and causing the scales to tip in favour of the over 18 market. It has already been established that Sony is absolutely fantastic at doing this in the gaming world, as they have come and essentially dominated in the console world. They are masters of marketing "cool", and the PSP is without a doubt cool (it even made the cover of Newsweek, which proclaimed it "undeniably sexy; the epitome of cool"). If the 25% then becomes 40%, we must assume that this 40% will have the greater influence on the under 18 market - as proved to be true with the console market. And since this is almost always true in any market, it's more than a little ridiculous to assume that because a market is currently in a certain state that it must therefore be near impossible to be successful.

Quite the contrary. The most successful devices are those who find untapped markets. And if you didn't know that, it's time to go back to business school.

I will tell it to you real simple like, cause you don't seem to be understanding much else:

<b>Kids won't be buying the PSP and enough adults won't buy it to make the platform feasible.</b>

This is an assumption without any evidence to back it up, and it is henceforth completely disregarded from this debate.

Due to lower cost of development GBA and to a certain extent DS games can be profitable with unit sales in the mere 10s of thousands. That just isn't possible with the PSP.

Please list your source.

After the two to three million hardcore handheld gaming fans worldwide have spent their 400.00 dollars on one PSP and a few games, and no one else is interested, the PSP will die a horribly grissly, money sucking death. Best case scenario is a long period of hibernation for the PSP. In five to six years time it might have a chance if they have:

Fixed the battery problem
Reduced the price to 99.00
Introduced unscratcheable, unbreakable optical media
Convince millions of adults to stop playing XBox 3 and PS4 to play a handheld

You fail to consider a lot of things. First, the PSP is already projected to sell 3 million by the end its March 2005 fiscal year. Demand for the system has been overwhelmingly fantastic, even in the face of a fucking horrendous pre-order situation (quite unlike the DS pre-order campaign, which was phenomenally well done). So we can already assume that the system will sell more than just 'three million to the hardcore.' And, for the purposes of this discussion, we're also completely disregarding your hilariously wrong assertion that the PSP will cost 400 dollars to these 3 million after all is said and done.

Now, the battery life is a problem; Kuturagi has already said it is in the process of being worked on. He expects a solution within a year that allows you to play PSP games for "as long as it takes in a Flight from New York to Narita", which is a 14 hour flight. Is that feasible? Perhaps not. But Kuturagi is definitely working on solutions, and as he himself acknowledges the original Walkman had only 2 hours of battery life. So as you can see, history has proven that battery life will have a negligible effect on how people view a product; it's all about perception. Many casual consumers still perceive the PS2 as the most powerful gaming device simply because it is the most popular on the market. Perception is important, and Sony is also king of perception.

As for releasing "unscratchable" optical media, maybe you forgot that UMDs have cases, which completely prevent scratching. Welcome to the 21st Century! "The PSP uses a proprietary Sony disc called the UMD, or Universal Media Disc. Capable of storing up to 1.8GB of data (a CD holds 0.650GB, a DVD holds 4.7GB), the UMD is a disc format enclosed in a small cartridge (similar to the Sony Mini-Disc format.)" Source.

So unless you're crackin' open the case, good luck scratching it! Will it be as durable as a GBA cart? Maybe not. Will it be as durable as a DS cart? Who knows. But there are so many advantages to non-cartridge based formula that any alternative that also helps protect the media is desired.

The 99 price point is completely fucking irrelevant so I'll be ignoring that.

And not to mention that You've actually done quite a bit of trolling yourself, and so has Amir0x, MAF, and several others, but you don't see them banned.

I have never trolled. Ever. I state unequivocal truths, no matter the camp. I don't care if you're Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft if you've got something I don't like, I'm going to bitch about it.

(3) You fail to understand that the price to develop and profit received from a Dora the Explorer 2d side scroller for the GBA that at 40,000 units sold is greater than a Ridge Racer PSP at 80,000 units?

This assumes, of course, that the PSP will never have a game like Dora the Explorer 2d side scroller or that the DS won't have games that cost extreme amount of money as well. If we were to make an accurate comparrison, it would not be Dora the Explorer to Ridge Racers PSP.

 

[Hardknock]

The exchange rate for the DS at 15000 yen is $145.50 Not that big of a jump.

You sure? I remember some big thread where Nintendo made a big announcement of $135 for the DS in Japan and $150 here... but then again I was merely taking the forums posters word for it, so I could be wrong.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

You sure? I remember some big thread where Nintendo made a big announcement of $135 for the DS in Japan and $150 here... but then again I was merely taking the forums posters word for it, so I could be wrong.

No, that was the exchange rate when the DS pricing was announced (138 bucks and some cents). It jumps wildly. I don't think we should even go by conversion, but it's whatever these dudes want to go by.

 

[bryanbr]

You're going by pure assumption. It is ASSUMED that the PSP will be 185. You're ASSUMING that they'll throw in a carrying case, 32MB mem stick a mic, and headphones for an additional 65 dollars (Which is rediculous). You're ASSUMING that people will see the starter's pack as something worth shelling out the extra dough for. And you know what you do when you Assume. Hint: Ass-U-Me

Let's get this straight:

(1) You believe that you will buy your PSP for 150.00, when myself and others have clearly demonstrated that the price will most likely be higher.
(2) You believe that the PSP optical UMD is going to be just a durable a hard plastic incased ROM.
(3) You fail to understand that the price to develop and profit received from a Dora the Explorer 2d side scroller for the GBA that at 40,000 units sold is greater than a Ridge Racer PSP at 80,000 units?
(4) To top it off you make use of old juvenile joke involving the pronounciation of the word assume.

Ok, you can safely be ignored now.

 

[maharg]

You sure? I remember some big thread where Nintendo made a big announcement of $135 for the DS in Japan and $150 here... but then again I was merely taking the forums posters word for it, so I could be wrong.

It could have been at the time of the announcement, and now it could be completely different. It's likely, even, and it only supports the point that using the exchange rate to predict prices at this point like you could in past years (which was also not really reasonable -- they tended to fall into rather obvious slotted prices) is not a safe bet. That the Japanese are paying even $5 less for an NDS is still a departure from traditional pricing schemes.

 

[Deg]

PSP will be sold at a loss.

I bet on $120 with memory stick, headphones, demos and case/bag.

 

[Amir0x]

PSP will be sold at a loss.

I bet on $120 with memory stick, headphones, demos and case/bag.

Ok, I'm going to make it known that I disagree and I feel that it will launch with only a memory card for the US at 199.

 

[Deg]

Sony are going to surprise alot of people.

 

[maharg]

PSP will be sold at a loss.

I bet on $120 with memory stick, headphones, demos and case/bag.

That's not a loss, that's bankruptcy.

 

[Amir0x]

Sony are going to surprise alot of people.

I sure hope so! But really, the possibility of a 120 dollar price point with all those features is so against the current trend (especially in light of Sony's 'cautious' PSP production woes) that I would literally be floored if that happened. I'd be more floored than I was when it was first announced the PSP would be 185.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

You've demonstrated nothing. In fact you've proven yourself ignorant of how Sony's internal measurements work. Sony's willing to take losses on hardware at launch, in case you haven't noticed. The Dollar value varies wildly throughout the year, yet you're using month-old measurements to estimate the PSP cost 3 months in advance.

The PSP UMDs are more durable than Minidisks, which are somewhat as durable as carts. Carts aren't immune themselves, and the UMDs provide a LOT of protection aside from hard shell casing. Again, you're making petty assumptions for which everyone SHOULD have ignored you long ago for.

You definitely do not know what the hell you're talking about. Paying back licensing to the makers of Dora as well as Nickelodeon, the publisher and whoever else vs a wholly owned Namco IP developed and Produced in house. you do not know the size of the team or the length of development. AGAIN, I reiterate: Yes the DS will on average with same amount of effort put through, cost less to develop for than the PSP, however, you are able to get a lot more out of the PSP than DS. I actually agreed to that point somewhat. However, then what boon would they get out of DS development? Why not stick with the GBA or better yet GB/GBC? And you're ignoring important factors like Middleware and the included applications with the dev kits, which you know nothing about. Until we get actual developer quotes arguing about DS vs PSP, you should not try to enthusiastically shove this point in others' face for arguments sake.

And, well, you were assuming, and saying some very, very belligerent things in the process.

 

[mashoutposse]

Um, the PS1 was not a handheld gaming machine that requires media that can stand up to the punishment of a handheld gaming machine.

PSP games come in an MD-style casing...

See?

Um, the game development for the PS1 was not cost considerable more than its competitors.

PSP games don't automatically cost more to develop than DS games just because they are PSP games. Do you think Metal Gear Acid will cost that much more to make than Metroid Hunters?

Um, the cost of the PS1 itself was not considerably more than the cost of its competitors.

The PSP doesn't even cost "considerably more" than its competitors; what's your point?

Um, the cost of first party games for the PS1 were not considerably more than the cost of its competitors.

Read above.

Um, the PS1 did not require its userbase to purchase an unheard of amount of games per console in order to make a profit than its competitors.

See, the good thing about being a consumer is that I am not compelled to prop up multi-billion dollar corporations with my buying habits. I could buy one thousand money-losing PSP consoles and toss them off of the Empire State Building without buying a single game if I wanted to. Still, something tells me that Sony didn't skip that little chore called market research when determining the feasibility of the business model.

Umm, your comparison makes no sense.

Hopefully, no one at Nintendo shares that opinion -- if so, history will definitely repeat itself.

 

[bryanbr]

You also get a battery recharger, just so we're clear. Similarly, the screen has its own method of protection - a strong coating which is what Sony is apparantely using. Will it offer more protection than a clamshell design? Absolutely not! But based on reports of just how strong the protection is, it's not going to get scratched unless you're the type of douchebag who plays football with your PSP.

No, its going to be scratched when Johnny puts it into his backpack that also includes books, coins, keys, etc.

Its also highly inconvenient to have to insert the handheld into a case before putting it into a backpack, pocket, etc that contains objects that will scratch it.

I don't have a case for my GBA SP, and if I had to be fucking with a case the 2 to 3 times a day a use it when commuting, I just might not be using it period.

Are we to say, then, that the DS costs an extra fifty dollars because you need a game and a headphones to get the most mileage?

You fail to consider a lot of things. First, the PSP is already projected to sell 3 million by the end its March 2005 fiscal year. Demand for the system has been overwhelmingly fantastic, even in the face of a fucking horrendous pre-order situation (quite unlike the DS pre-order campaign, which was phenomenally well done). So we can already assume that the system will sell more than just 'three million to the hardcore.' And, for the purposes of this discussion, we're also completely disregarding your hilariously wrong assertion that the PSP will cost 400 dollars to these 3 million after all is said and done.

Projections are meaningless garbage. Do you know how many XBoxes and GCs were "projected" to be sold by this time?

Right the PSP package (which allows you to save a game) and 3 games will cost you 400.00 dollars.

As for releasing "unscratchable" optical media, maybe you forgot that UMDs have cases, which completely prevent scratching. Welcome to the 21st Century! "The PSP uses a proprietary Sony disc called the UMD, or Universal Media Disc. Capable of storing up to 1.8GB of data (a CD holds 0.650GB, a DVD holds 4.7GB), the UMD is a disc format enclosed in a small cartridge (similar to the Sony Mini-Disc format.)" Source.

You not only want little Johnny to carefully place his PSP in his case after every use, but now you want him to carefully place his games in cases after every use? Guess what, it aint going to happen. Everyone knows it. Kids won't do it. Adults don't want to fuck it. You should see the sorry state of console games and they aren't even being transported around like a PSP UMD would be.

Let's picture this:

You are on a crowded train. How many motions is it going to cost you to remove the PSP from case, remove game one from machine, place it in case, remove game two from case, place it in machine, then place PSP back into case after finished playing? And if you drop to UMD on the floor and it gets scratched you are out 50 bucks?

 

[Brofist]

Then put side by side with the GBnext

PSP is pretty cheap too.

The GBNext is out now? Wow that was quick.

 

[Brofist]

Ok, you can safely be ignored now.

I was thinking the same thing after just one of your lame ass posts.

 

[Hardknock]

You've demonstrated nothing. In fact you've proven yourself ignorant of how Sony's internal measurements work. Sony's willing to take losses on hardware at launch, in case you haven't noticed. The Dollar value varies wildly throughout the year, yet you're using month-old measurements to estimate the PSP cost 3 months in advance.

The PSP UMDs are more durable than Minidisks, which are somewhat as durable as carts. Carts aren't immune themselves, and the UMDs provide a LOT of protection aside from hard shell casing. Again, you're making petty assumptions for which everyone SHOULD have ignored you long ago for.

You definitely do not know what the hell you're talking about. Paying back licensing to the makers of Dora as well as Nickelodeon, the publisher and whoever else vs a wholly owned Namco IP developed and Produced in house. you do not know the size of the team or the length of development. AGAIN, I reiterate: Yes the DS will on average with same amount of effort put through, cost less to develop for than the PSP, however, you are able to get a lot more out of the PSP than DS. I actually agreed to that point somewhat. However, then what boon would they get out of DS development? Why not stick with the GBA or better yet GB/GBC? And you're ignoring important factors like Middleware and the included applications with the dev kits, which you know nothing about. Until we get actual developer quotes arguing about DS vs PSP, you should not try to enthusiastically shove this point in others' face for arguments sake.

And, well, you were assuming, and saying some very, very belligerent things in the process.

Chill-out Mr. Snowman. It seems like you are getting a little heated in your posts. :lol But anyway, to supply you with proof of the Developer Support for the DS over the PSP, Famitsu recently did a poll with Japaneese developers and over 60% chose the DS, something like %20 were excited by the PSP, and the other 20% didn't have an answer either way. So how is that for proof?

 

[Miburou]

Uh, dude, the PSP's discs are enclosed in a case (cartridge), and you insert the case in the PSP. You don't (can't) remove the disc from the case.

 

[mashoutposse]

You not only want little Johnny to carefully place his PSP in his case after every use, but now you want him to carefully place his games in cases after every use? Guess what, it aint going to happen. Everyone knows it. Kids won't do it. Adults don't want to fuck it. You should see the sorry state of console games and they aren't even being transported around like a PSP UMD would be.

Let's picture this:

You are on a crowded train. How many motions is it going to cost you to remove the PSP from case, remove game one from machine, place it in case, remove game two from case, place it in machine, then place PSP back into case after finished playing?

People got by with all of the other non-clamshell handhelds.

And if you drop to UMD on the floor and it gets scratched you are out 50 bucks?

Read and comprehend. UMD. Enclosed in plastic case. Disc safe from danger.

 

[mashoutposse]

Chill-out Mr. Snowman. It seems like you are getting a little heated in your posts. :lol But anyway, to supply you with proof of the Developer Support for the DS over the PSP, Famitsu recently did a poll with Japaneese developers and over 60% chose the DS, something like %20 were excited by the PSP, and the other 20% didn't have an answer either way. So how is that for proof?

That survey was posed to store owners, not developers.

 

[Deg]

The GBNext is out now? Wow that was quick.

Not now but it inevitable. The key thing with PSP is its Sony PlayStation.

 

[bryanbr]

The PSP doesn't even cost "considerably more" than its competitors; what's your point?

Um, the DS sells for 150.00. The PSP version that allows you to save a game will cost 250.00.

Actually, there is no true competitor to the PSP. The DS is aimed at a lower price point, true gaming hand held marketplace.

No one besides Sony believed that a 250.00 handheld directed toward an imaginary market of tens of millions of adult handheld gamers would work.

 

[Hardknock]

People got by with all of the other non-clamshell handhelds.



Read and comprehend. UMD. Enclosed in plastic case. Disc safe from danger.

Can the UMD "plastic case" not be scratch? I'm just curious. Also I think there is a opening in the "case" so the lazer can hit directly on the disc? I think I've seen tha ton a few pics of the UMD, but not sure. NOt saying that the UMD is at all prone to being damaged, it looks pretty well built for portable disc media if you ask me...

 

[Miburou]

Ever seen an MD? Surely you've seen a floppy disc?

 

[Defensor]

Can the UMD "plastic case" not be scratch? I'm just curious. Also I think there is a whol in the "case" so the lazer can hit directly on the disc? I think I've seen tha ton a few pics of the UMD, but not sure. NOt saying that the UMD is at all prone to being damaged, it looks pretty well built for portable disc media if you ask me...

Sure the plastic case can be scratched, but that has nothing to do with the laser reading once insertied into the MD/PSP. MD's and UMD's have a little door(metal in the case of MD's) that slides open for the laser to read off the disc. You cannot just open the door on the MD/UMD's without inserting them into the unit. I've tried...

 

[jiggle]

Can the UMD "plastic case" not be scratch? I'm just curious. Also I think there is a opening in the "case" so the lazer can hit directly on the disc? I think I've seen tha ton a few pics of the UMD, but not sure. NOt saying that the UMD is at all prone to being damaged, it looks pretty well built for portable disc media if you ask me...

No, the UMD is indestructible. Sony specifically made it that way because they know PSP users will be constantly dropping and stomping on it.

 

[bryanbr]

People got by with all of the other non-clamshell handhelds.

Except that they weren't as popular as the GBA SP. Which has been the best selling handheld gaming device ever.

And which of these popular non-clamshell handhelds used optical media? Oops, none! You're wrong.

 

[jiggle]

Except that they weren't as popular as the GBA SP. Which has been the best selling handheld gaming device ever.

I believe the original GB, GBC, and GBA all sold quite a few pretty pennies.

 

[Miburou]

What does a clam-shell design have to do with optical media? Talk about being desperate. :lol

 

[mashoutposse]

Not now but it inevitable. The key thing with PSP is its Sony PlayStation.

GBA2 won't be out before the PSP gets its own "Resident Evil 1" -- a AAA game that cements the movement towards high technology & adult content and away from the old "8/16-bit" game design and style. Nintendo will likely once again issue another elitist response in the form of a "games only" console that stubbornly shies away from a certain level of sophistication, from the chassis design to the software itself.

 

[mashoutposse]

Um, the DS sells for 150.00. The PSP version that allows you to save a game will cost 250.00.

You can buy the base for $185-200 and get a 32MB stick for ~$10.

I'm betting that there will be only one variant of the PSP here in the US -- the equivalent of the Japanese value pack, and it will likely be $199.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Chill-out Mr. Snowman. It seems like you are getting a little heated in your posts. :lol But anyway, to supply you with proof of the Developer Support for the DS over the PSP, Famitsu recently did a poll with Japaneese developers and over 60% chose the DS, something like %20 were excited by the PSP, and the other 20% didn't have an answer either way. So how is that for proof?

I've not stated once anything about developer support for PSP vs DS. You've misconstrued my entire post, and you should reread what I posted. What I said was that it's meaningless to try and decide which is cheaper to develop for without knowledge of developer kits, middleware and whatever else.

And no, I'm not heated. It's my posting style.

 

[Amir0x]

No, its going to be scratched when Johnny puts it into his backpack that also includes books, coins, keys, etc.

Its also highly inconvenient to have to insert the handheld into a case before putting it into a backpack, pocket, etc that contains objects that will scratch it.

I don't have a case for my GBA SP, and if I had to be fucking with a case the 2 to 3 times a day a use it when commuting, I just might not be using it period.

Way to completely ignore the important little thing called "real facts." The real facts is that the coating that is likely to be used on the PSP screen was tested, and it took a knife gouging at it to scratch it. So I don't know what type of books and coins and razor-sharp knife keys you have, but no those will not be scratching the screen.

Now, the fact that you're a lazy bastard and find it "inconvenient" to insert a handheld into a case is also irrelevant. The fact is that if you really wanted to protect a product that costs over 150 dollars, you use a case! I'm planning on getting a case for my DS even though it utilizes a clamshell design. It's simply a smart way to protect your investment. And this STILL completely ignores the fact that having a clamshell was not something people really complained about for the original GBA or the GB/GBC. This was something that was created by Nintendo fanboys after the SP came out as a way of adding something deragatory to say about the PSP.

I can have anecdotal evidence as well, and my anecdotal evidence says that I have owned a GB/GBA/GBC/GBP is still in relatively good shape, and that's with significantly less protection then the PSP screen will have. And you wouldn't believe the amount of shit I put it through. See how good such evidence does?

It seems to me that what you have is a pile of anecdotal evidence based on nothing other than personal experience; anecdotal evidence is worth about as much as garbage. You don't want to use a case. You have products that were damanged under the crushing weight of your razor-sharp knife keys. This is so irrelevant to the discussion at hand that we should put a sign on your head that says as much. Better yet, meet my friend:

So, as I said before, it's no doubt a clamshell design is significantly better at protecting a screen. But as this is a discussion about the potential success or non-success of the PSP, it's completely irrelevant because casual consumers have historically not made decisions based on clamshell protection, as proven by the radical success of the GB and GBA. If you want to talk about absurdities, then let's discuss how absurd it is that you suddenly think that since the GBA SP came out casual consumers will stop buying systems that don't contain the clamshell feature.

But you continue reaching for the sky; I'll continue to laugh at you.

Projections are meaningless garbage. Do you know how many XBoxes and GCs were "projected" to be sold by this time?

Oh, it's not just projections. It's trends. Trends are all we have to go off of. The pre-ordering for PSP so far has been a radical success with retailers selling out in seconds whenever they go up. Is this an indication of long-term success? Absolutely not. But it's a fair ~assumption~ to say it'll sell more than its initial 3 million projection. And, as I'm sure you know, short-term projections are far more accurate than long-term projections. The 3 million by March 2005 is a short term projection. The Gamecube and Xbox actually met their short term projections; they failed to meet their long-term projections. There's a distinct difference, and I'm sure you're intelligent enough to seperate the two.

Right the PSP package (which allows you to save a game) and 3 games will cost you 400.00 dollars.

Do you realize just how monumentally stupid this statement is?

I see, so I guess the PS2 and Gamecube and Xbox cost me over a thousand dollars over time, because I have purchased so many games. I guess I should have considered the extreme costs when I first purchased a 300 dollar PS2! Woe is me!

This statement of yours just goes to prove just how far you're stretching for something bad to say. Every single person in the industry was amazed at the price. There's not a single analyst who would now say that the PSP was a "bad price" based on its technology. But here comes bryanbr, he knows more than everyone! He has come to take over the industry by storm, scattering pot-bellied assertions throughout the ends of the earth. The winds gather like a coming storm, bryanbr is here! That's not even to mention how surprised everyone was, or all the rumblings that PSP will launch at 150 in the US. Don't believe me? I have sources, unlike you! Check here. Or here. Might be a good read for you! [sarcasm] But, of course, "surprise" is just a clever term for "surprised the price is so bad", am I right? [/sarcasm]

You not only want little Johnny to carefully place his PSP in his case after every use, but now you want him to carefully place his games in cases after every use? Guess what, it aint going to happen. Everyone knows it. Kids won't do it. Adults don't want to fuck it. You should see the sorry state of console games and they aren't even being transported around like a PSP UMD would be.

Fortunately, the market the PSP is aiming for is not "little Johnny." And this entire paragraph is anecdotal evidence based on no factual information. Saying "Kids won't do it. Adults don't want to fuck it" does not make it a fact! When you come back with a scientific poll that states that casual consumers refuse to buy a system without a clamshell case, then we can discuss. But, oh wait... you've already been proven wrong. Since the GBA is a wild success. As was the GBC. As was the GB. Oh, but I guess... I guess that will all suddenly change now that the GBA SP introduced a clamshell, right? Casual consumers will suddenly refuse to buy all systems without a clamshell! I hope you can see after this point just how fucking stupid that sounds.

Let's picture this:

You are on a crowded train. How many motions is it going to cost you to remove the PSP from case, remove game one from machine, place it in case, remove game two from case, place it in machine, then place PSP back into case after finished playing? And if you drop to UMD on the floor and it gets scratched you are out 50 bucks?

The UMD has a casing. It cannot scratch like that. Do you enjoy ignoring the facts?

Seriously, unless you can come back with some hard facts... consider yourself owned.

 

[Hardknock]

I've not stated once anything about developer support for PSP vs DS. You've misconstrued my entire post, and you should reread what I posted. What I said was that it's meaningless to try and decide which is cheaper to develop for without knowledge of developer kits, middleware and whatever else.

And no, I'm not heated. It's my posting style.

Here's some quotes from the Developer of Dynasty Warriors for both handhelds:

Speaking to Game Developer Magazine (a trade magazine about the business and the technology of designing and coding games), Koei's Yoshiki Sugiyama and Takazumi Tomoike spoke of their respective DS and PSP versions of the game. The two spoke independently of the projects -- it is unknown if the DS and PSP editions share developer talent or are two separate productions -- but as the heads of their own versions of the franchise, each has had to get creative and work hard to make the game fit into the new systems with the unproven technology of early test kits.
Our recent preview of Dynasty Warriors PSP illuminates some of the compromises and changes needed for the PlayStation Portable edition -- some changes are to better fit the system, others are clear technology adjustments for the early launch software. Takazumi Tomoike had to say of developing the PSP edition, "[I can't] say that it was easy -- there were many problems. For instance you can't use the exact same models. With the specs it should work the same as it does in the PS2, but on this hardware it doesn't." It is unclear whether Mr. Tomoike is speaking about technical limits, or just different hardware handling -- the PSP's texture and rendering systems are similar but different from PS2. We have also heard from many developers that a surprising number of adjustments needed to be made once the team saw the game on the screen -- the golf ball in Tiger Woods PGA Tour, for example, needed to be scaled up to proportionally the size of a baseball before it was big enough for players to follow it on the greens.

Whether or not Mr. Tomoike is speaking of the technical or the aesthetic challenges of creating early PSP software, his challenges with the provisional development suite were more clear. "We had problems with the library that Sony gave us. There are still quite a few bugs." Of course, new hardware is always a frontiersman's wild country, but this early in the hardware cycle, the system has proven particularly challenging for this team.

The Nintendo DS seems to be on better footing for Koei's other team. "The library Nintendo provided allows us to do various things, so we're satisfied," said Yoshiki Sugiyama. "The DS is more prepared, so it's easier to develop for at this stage."

That being the case, Koei has still not shown the DS version of Dynasty Warriors, and it is unknown when plans to do so. With the series debuting on the advanced PlayStation 2 (a 1-on-1 fighting game called Dynasty Warriors was released on PSone, but the epic war brawler we know the series best as really started in Japan as Shin Sangoku Musou and was renamed Dynasty Warriors 2 in America), the team has had to start from scratch on the Nintendo DS. The handheld's relatively meager technical specs have mean that the team has had to redesign both the graphics and the gameplay of this edition. Speaking for the DS edition, Mr. Sugiyama said, "The DS can't do the higher quality graphics, so the 3D models are pretty tough. AS a result we decided to make a game that's simpler looking, and plays simpler too." This change in play may incorporate the touch screen, as has been rumored since the game was announced, but Sugiyama did not go into details on this aspect.

Naturally, every work of art and entertainment involves some compromises -- sometimes, getting creative to work around problems can actually help make the project better for it. As developers in the pioneer days of these two systems, Koei's job is that much harder in making games with new hardware and work-in-progress development tools. We're eager to see the results of both teams when Dynasty Warriors for PSP and DS arrive in finished form, for PSP by the end of 2004 in Japan and for both systems sometime in 2005 for gamers here in North America.

Here's the link: http://ds.ign.com/articles/563/563187p1.html

 

[Drek]

Can the UMD "plastic case" not be scratch? I'm just curious. Also I think there is a opening in the "case" so the lazer can hit directly on the disc? I think I've seen tha ton a few pics of the UMD, but not sure. NOt saying that the UMD is at all prone to being damaged, it looks pretty well built for portable disc media if you ask me...

Going by my experience with DVD Ram (which aren't as durable as UMD from what I hear) you'd need to set it on the ground and give it a good stomp to ruin a game.

You not only want little Johnny to carefully place his PSP in his case after every use, but now you want him to carefully place his games in cases after every use? Guess what, it aint going to happen. Everyone knows it. Kids won't do it. Adults don't want to fuck it. You should see the sorry state of console games and they aren't even being transported around like a PSP UMD would be.

At a job I had this summer we had a saying "Be smarter than the tool you're working with". You failed that test and your competition was a keyboard.

According to the disc's makers, only by gouging away at the screen with a knife have they been able to damage the surface.

This I have to see. That'd be pretty damn cool.

 

[DCharlie]

"Oh, it's not just projections. It's trends. Trends are all we have to go off of. The pre-ordering for PSP so far has been a radical success with retailers selling out in seconds whenever they go up. "

.... the volume of preorders though is not really known. The online preorders have been in the low hundreds. it's very difficult to get a preorder because it seems to be some big secret about who is doing them when.

 

[Gek54]

I've already pointed out that Mrparissm doesn't troll anywhere near what you make him out to. And there are several in this very thread that have came to his defense aswell. You are just overly defensive about anything Sony, and hated the poor kid because his opinion differed from yours... That's just pathetic. :lol And not to mention that You've actually done quite a bit of trolling yourself, and so has Amir0x, MAF, and several others, but you don't see them banned.

Hmm, where have I trolled? I dont doubt that I have I am just curious as to what you are refering to. As to MrParisSM, it was how he was presenting his opinion and the obvious bating he was doing.

 

[Amir0x]

"Oh, it's not just projections. It's trends. Trends are all we have to go off of. The pre-ordering for PSP so far has been a radical success with retailers selling out in seconds whenever they go up. "

.... the volume of preorders though is not really known. The online preorders have been in the low hundreds. it's very difficult to get a preorder because it seems to be some big secret about who is doing them when.

There's no doubt that the amount of trends we have to go off of is weak. I'm not claiming it's anything but. However, the trends point FAR more toward a successful PSP than a failure PSP, which is the point I'm trying to make. In that you cannot deny.

I have also made note about the horrific PSP pre-order campaign, and have been a vocal detractor on how Sony is handling it. I think they're fucking idiots for not having something far more solid to back up their first handheld venture.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Here's some quotes from the Developer of Dynasty Warriors for both handhelds:




Here's the link: http://ds.ign.com/articles/563/563187p1.html

Good link and interesting read, but it only shows the difficulty in adjusting to the PSP from PS2. Not really the difficulty in programming. They're having aesthetic problems and it sounds mostly like they're still using PS2 resolutions, textures or models. It also tells how early and undeveloped the PSP devkit libraries are. This will improve greatly in a short amount of time. Knowing Sony, though, at very pre-planned points.

 

[Duke Juan the Beast]

little Johnny

Ahh, little Johnny has finally made his appearance. The bane of all new system launches and expensive things worldwide but the boon of fanboys with nothing but a piss and a prayer for an argument.

Always broke, always clumsy, always stupid, and seemingly always happy with the status quo. God, I would really like to smack the little fucker.

 

[Amir0x]

Ahh, little Johnny has finally made his appearance. The bane of all new system launches and expensive things worldwide but the boon of fanboys with nothing but a piss and a prayer for an argument.

Always broke, always clumsy, always stupid, and seemingly always happy with the status quo. God, I would really like to smack the little fucker.

Is that person in your avatar little Johnny?