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[StuBurns]

I'm very pleased, the head of Subway Town was talking shit, you don't need a new car, yet at least. Looks like I'll finish it, I really enjoyed the last mission, much better than the two before. And somehow I amassed plenty of cash to ammo up for the next mission.

 

[dynamitejim]

I really enjoyed this game, but that ending was some grade A bullshit. What the hell were they thinking? The gun play is really solid, but id really needs some new mission designers.

 

[Ryuuga]

Anyone remember halflife vs kingpin?

 

[Echoplx]

Man the gunplay in this game.. so good

I don't even mind the racing/driving parts tbh, I like racing games but can't be fucked putting substantial time into them so this is like a perfect mix.

 

[Drazgul]

I'm rocking some Fat Mamas, Pop Rockets and Explosive Bolts and nothing can stop me. Nothing, I say!

Doesn't the Sniper Rifle get any ammo upgrades - it kinda sucks now compared to the other weapons.

 

[JaseC]

No, objectively speaking Rage doesn't hold on top of some shooters we have getting this cycle. One example: System Shock Light a.k.a Bioshock, a 2007 game holds a lot more merits than Rage. Shooting goes to Rage everything else Bioshock is the better game.

"No"? "No" to what, exactly? It seems as though you are attempting to nullify his opinion that Rage is the most fun shooter he's played this generation by bringing up a game that was universally criticised for its poor combat.

 

[Refreshment.01]

"No"? "No" to what, exactly? It seems as though you are attempting to nullify his opinion that Rage is the most fun shooter he's played this generation by bringing up a game that was universally criticised for its poor combat.

JaseC, the response was in reference to the following Mat C statement regarding Rage:

the crowning achievement in a genre which has absolutely saturated this gen. If it took some old school design decisions to get there then so be it, for me.

That's why i mentioned an example of what constitutes a more important contribution to the genre than Rage is, in that case was System Shock Lite or Bioshock. I tend to stray away from "fun" discussion because in most cases its a very subjective matter.

I hope its now clear enough for you JaseC.

 

[JaseC]

JaseC, the response was in reference to the following Mat C statement: the crowning achievement in a genre which has absolutely saturated this gen. If it took some old school design decisions to get there then so be it, for me.
That's why i mentioned an example of what constitutes a more important contribution to the genre than Rage is, in that case was System Shock Lite or Bioshock. I tend to stray away from "fun" discussion because in most cases its a very subjective matter.

I hope its now clear enough for you JaseC.

It seems you're, strangely, detaching that point from his post and dissecting it without the contextual qualifier of him expressing his opinion. Rage is a "crowning achievement" not because of what it brings to the genre, but because it was, for him, a breath of surprisingly enjoyable fresh air in an environment he considers stale.

 

[Spasm]

I Tend to stray away from "fun" discussion because in most cases its a very subjective matter.

So is your arbitrary list of technical features a game must have to be relevant.

 

[Mr_eX]

garath, it invalidates your point because you said and i quote: "As far as the lack of physics based objects in the world. I say good. I've never found knocking over barrels as I run past them or kicking tiny objects around the world to be beneficial to the gameplay at all."
The examples provided disapprove that claim and shooters from past and this generation have made good use of physics based systems for play.

That's what amounts to, you are speaking in subjective terms. For whatever reason you are willing to close your eyes to some of the game's flaws or issues and that's fine if you actually believe so and it's no some sort of apologist defense mechanism. And no, not being able to jump over low height obstacles has anything to do with Rage's corridor design.

Physics based objects in a game with this much geometry in such confined spaces would be a disaster.

 

[Sullichin]

Anyone else having co-op difficulties on PS3? Tried to play the first level with my friend. I didn't see any enemies in the level, and it looked like my friend was running in place in the beginning of the level. He saw enemies and saw me just running through them lol. We tried again and that time he couldn't see any enemies but I could.

 

[Refreshment.01]

It seems you're, strangely, detaching that point from his post and dissecting it without the contextual qualifier of him expressing his opinion. Rage is a "crowning achievement" not because of what it brings to the genre, but because it was, for him, a breathe of surprisingly enjoyable fresh air in an environment he considers stale.

But that's just not the case. My reply is still valid, you mistakingly though that i was talking about the "fun" MatC had with the game and i was not. It was: "the crowning achievement in a genre which has absolutely saturated this gen." the statement that's hard to swallow because Rage does not measure up to that claim.

What's the point of continuing with this JaseC? it's already been substantially explained in my previous post.

So is your arbitrary list of technical features a game must have to be relevant.

Please expand your reply. I explained some of the game issues with examples not in an arbitrary manner like you are implying.

Physics based objects in a game with this much geometry in such confined spaces would be a disaster.

Not necessarily true, probably not true at all. Dead Space its even more confined than this game and doesn't pose any serious problems with the objects. There probably better examples to give.

 

[StuBurns]

If it's the best shooter this generation or not is totally subjective, but I don't think you can argue it's an over-saturated genre.

Personally I'd put Halo Reach, HL2:EP2, Crysis/Warhead, BioShock all above Rage, but I could easily see someone thinking it was the best shooter this generation.

 

[JaseC]

But that's just not the case. My reply is still valid, you mistakingly though that i was talking about the "fun" MatC had with the game and i was not. It was: "the crowning achievement in a genre which has absolutely saturated this gen." the statement that's hard to swallow because Rage does not measure up to that claim.

What's the point of continuing with this JaseC? it's already been substantially explained in my previous post..

You're misunderstanding the post. The "crowning achievement" he refers to is the fact that Rage - a game so simplistic in its design yet residing in a genre where "simplicity" is a dirty word and experimentation and cross-genre gameplay are both expected and encouraged - managed to be a thoroughly enjoyable experience; a personally-awarded accolade designed to express his unexpectedly positive surprise.

Edit: He is not suggesting, as you seem to believe, that the game itself is a "crowning achievement" within the FPS genre as a whole. The genre already has its fair share of delightfully simple shooters, with id's previous games being the most obvious of examples.

 

[Mr_eX]

But that's just not the case. My reply is still valid, you mistakingly though that i was talking about the "fun" MatC had with the game and i was not. It was: "the crowning achievement in a genre which has absolutely saturated this gen." the statement that's hard to swallow because Rage does not measure up to that claim.

What's the point of continuing with this JaseC? it's already been substantially explained in my previous post.

Please expand your reply. I explained some of the game issues with examples not in an arbitrary manner like you are implying.

Not necessarily true, probably not true at all. Dead Space its even more confined than this game and doesn't pose any serious problems with the objects. There probably better examples to give.

Dead Space doesn't have as much geometry in the space, it's pretty much empty hallways.

 

[TheOctagon]

You know, Viktor Antonov worked on Kingpin. Just putting that out there.

 

[Refreshment.01]

If it's the best shooter this generation or not is totally subjective, but I don't think you can argue it's an over-saturated genre.

Personally I'd put Halo Reach, HL2:EP2, Crysis/Warhead, BioShock all above Rage, but I could easily see someone thinking it was the best shooter this generation.

Not entirely subjective. You can be objective of what a game is doing or bringing to the genre even if you don't like it at all. Would you take me seriously if i said Body Count is more revolutionary, influential or imaginative with its play mechanics than Half Life 2 is? It's an opinion like any other but a ridiculous one. Rage their favorite shooter? fine. The "crowning achievement of an over saturated genre", no, not at all. Most reasonable persons would agree there.

The funny shit is that in completely agree with the list you put up there.

I would not even dare to say the FPS genre isn't over saturated, in fact you are insulting me by supposing i do

Dead Space doesn't have as much geometry in the space, it's pretty much empty hallways.

Respectfully speaking but you starting to reach for any excuse now. Looks like Rage wouldn't have any problem with an environment populated with physic driven objects, id has been behind the times in this aspect. Other games do it, at least provide a valid reason why Rage wouldn't.

 

[StuBurns]

I would not even dare to say the FPS genre isn't over saturated, in fact you are insulting me by supposing i do

I certainly didn't mean to be insulting, I wasn't entirely sure which part of the post you quoted you were disagreeing with, and it did mention the genre saturation. I apologize.

Not entirely subjective. You can be objective of what a game is doing or bringing to the genre even if you don't like it at all. Would you take me seriously if i said Body Count is more revolutionary, influential or imaginative with its play mechanics than Half Life 2 is? It's an opinion like any other but a ridiculous one. The funny shit is that in completely agree with the list you put up there.

I think there are objective things you can look at when summarizing a game's standing amongst it's peers, however ultimately what matters for an internal preference is purely enjoyment. For example, I would put Nier in my top ten games this generation. If someone asked me to make an objective criticism of the game I would have to rate it very low, but none of that matters to me because I still enjoyed it a lot.

I would be surprised if you said Body Count was the best shooter this generation, but if you enjoyed it more than any other, any argument I could possibly make would essentially be redundant.

 

[garath]

garath, it invalidates your point because you said and i quote: "As far as the lack of physics based objects in the world. I say good. I've never found knocking over barrels as I run past them or kicking tiny objects around the world to be beneficial to the gameplay at all."
The examples provided disapprove that claim and shooters from past and this generation have made good use of physics based systems for play.

My example was EXACTLY my example. You quoted me and still missed it. Your fine examples of throwing a fridge at people and making something blow up with physics were well and good. I said I've never found knocking over barrels as I run past or kicking tiny objects around the world to be beneficial. I said nothing about other applications of physics based objects.

I still stand by my opinion that they are unnecessary fluff for a shooter like RAGE. It's an opinion that is apparently shared by many others as pointed out by your original complaint that no one is talking about it as a negative.

That's what amounts to, you are speaking in subjective terms. For whatever reason you are willing to close your eyes to some of the game's flaws or issues and that's fine if you actually believe so and it's no some sort of apologist defense mechanism. And no, not being able to jump over low height obstacles has anything to do with Rage's corridor design.

I don't consider it a flaw. Like I said before, we'll just have to disagree here.

 

[Refreshment.01]

I certainly didn't mean to be insulting, I wasn't entirely sure which part of the post you quoted you were disagreeing with, and it did mention the genre saturation. I apologize.

I know, hence the smiley.

If someone asked me to make an objective criticism of the game I would have to rate it very low, but none of that matters to me because I still enjoyed it a lot.

I would be surprised if you said Body Count was the best shooter this generation, but if you enjoyed it more than any other, any argument I could possibly make would essentially be redundant.

We are gravitating towards the "enjoyment", and that's not what im talking or care about in this discussion, what im talking about is like you well said "objective criticism". And being objective there have been games this generation that do more for the FPS genre than Rage.

"Enjoyment" many times is treated as the master key to defend a game without making any reasonable sound claims, a free out of jail card to get away with anything one says.

 

[Mr_eX]

Not entirely subjective. You can be objective of what a game is doing or bringing to the genre even if you don't like it at all. Would you take me seriously if i said Body Count is more revolutionary, influential or imaginative with its play mechanics than Half Life 2 is? It's an opinion like any other but a ridiculous one. Rage their favorite shooter? fine. The "crowning achievement of an over saturated genre", no, not at all. Most reasonable persons would agree there.

The funny shit is that in completely agree with the list you put up there.

I would not even dare to say the FPS genre isn't over saturated, in fact you are insulting me by supposing i do

Respectfully speaking but you starting to reach for any excuse now. Looks like Rage wouldn't have any problem with an environment populated with physic driven objects, id has been behind the times in this aspect. Other games do it, at least provide a valid reason why Rage wouldn't.

My original point was that Rage had too much geometry in confined spaces for physics based objects, you brought up a game filled with empty hallways to counter my point and I'm the one reaching?

With all the explosions going on during firefights everything would go flying and could either get in the way of combat or completely block your path forcing you to reload a save. Physics based objects work great in games like Halo where you have big open spaces but I don't they wouldn't work in Rage.

It seems like the majority of your complaints are how Rage isn't like other games that you like. Just because a few games do something doesn't mean every game had to. Maybe you should judge Rage for what it is instead of what it's not.

 

[Feindflug]

Quick question guys, are the co-op missions and the multiplayer playable via system link on 360?

 

[StuBurns]

We are gravitating towards the "enjoyment", and that's not what im talking or care about in this discussion, what im talking about is like you well said "objective criticism". And being objective there have been games this generation that do more for the genre than Rage.

"Enjoyment" many times is treated as the master key to defend a game without making any reasonable sound claims, a free out of jail card to get away with anything one says.

But what do you ultimately expected to achieve from that? Even if you won the debate and got someone to say, for example that Crysis was the objectively superior game, if they still prefer Rage, nothing has changed.

Enjoyment is the most important aspect of criticism, and yes, it's entirely subjective.

 

[see5harp]

Played about 3-4 hours of the PS3 version. Texture pop in is extremely distracting and I really wonder whether it's any better on 360. You can literally turn 25 degrees left or right in most of the towns and it's there every time. Art direction and NPC's look really good but textures on everything else turn into complete blur the second you get close to them.

 

[Refreshment.01]

It seems like the majority of your complaints are how Rage isn't like other games that you like. Just because a few games do something doesn't mean every game had to. Maybe you should judge Rage for what it is instead of what it's not.

False ill intentioned comment on your part Mr_Ex. I've commented on many of the game flaws as well as praised its positive qualities. Also you are failing to provide a good reason of why it wouldn't work on Rage. The Dead Space example wasn't to your taste, that's the thing with examples when it doesn't suit your arguments even the smallest difference is used to mine it. Not even 2 drops from the same glass of water are equal. Plus, and to end the silly argument, id could easy opted to populate the areas with physics driven objects in a way that made sense in the context of the place and in a way that would not hinder gameplay.

But what do you ultimately expected to achieve from that? Even if you won the debate and got someone to say, for example that Crysis was the objectively superior game, if they still prefer Rage, nothing has changed.

Enjoyment is the most important aspect of criticism, and yes, it's entirely subjective.

Give praise where praise its deserved, nothing more nothing less. "X" game invented/established a genre, "X" game has more expressive faces, better acted dialog, written script or expertly cinematic direction, "X" game is more technically proficient, has more realistic physics simulation,"X" game features more and better integration of subsystems, has a more in depth rule set or mechanics. All objective claims that can be made about a game without tainting the conversation with "fun".

Who has better animation Rage or Golden Eye? "Golden Eye of course, in my opinion, the guys sneezing, picking their noses and shooting the flies are funnier. Made me enjoy the game a lot more".

Played about 3-4 hours of the PS3 version. Texture pop in is extremely distracting and I really wonder whether it's any better on 360. You can literally turn 25 degrees left or right in most of the towns and it's there every time. Art direction and NPC's look really good but textures on everything else turn into complete blur the second you get close to them.

How dare you? The 1 second texture popping is nothing, it doesn't make the game any less fun at all.

 

[Definity]

I'm rocking some Fat Mamas, Pop Rockets and Explosive Bolts and nothing can stop me. Nothing, I say!

Doesn't the Sniper Rifle get any ammo upgrades - it kinda sucks now compared to the other weapons.

I didn't get any sniper upgrades. I think they had to make a few side jobs in the game just so you could actually use the sniper rifle. I only ever used it in the Jackal Canyon level. Other levels I was balls to the wall with my shotgun and dynamite bolts.

The assault rifle didn't make much sense in the game IMO once you got the Authority rifle. Wish they would've come up with another weapon to replace the standard assault rifle.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Physics based objects in a game with this much geometry in such confined spaces would be a disaster.

FEAR.

 

[garath]

Plus, and to end the silly argument, id could easy opted to populate the areas with physics driven objects in a way that made sense in the context of the place and in a way that would not hinder gameplay.

This is where I think you are incorrect. You assume id could have added physics driven objects. I don't think they could have without impacting performance of the game. As it is, it seems to be right at the edge of the consoles' capabilities. Sure it has a lot of headroom on PC, but you can't something that changes game play on one platform and not the other. So even if there was nice little fluff physics that somehow added to the game, I wouldn't trade the 60fps for it. There hasn't been a game yet that has implemented it so well I'd trade good performance for it.

 

[Refreshment.01]

This is where I think you are incorrect. You assume id could have added physics driven objects. I don't think they could have without impacting performance of the game. As it is, it seems to be right at the edge of the consoles' capabilities. Sure it has a lot of headroom on PC, but you can't something that changes game play on one platform and not the other. So even if there was nice little fluff physics that somehow added to the game, I wouldn't trade the 60fps for it. There hasn't been a game yet that has implemented it so well I'd trade good performance for it.

The assumption you are making in the above post is plain wrong garath, i never once claim id could've pull it off (the physics driven objects) in the console at 60 FPS while all else remaining equal. It would be incredible stupid and unfair of my part to claim other wise, because id has in fact assemble a good looking game at 60 FPS in a console. My contention with Mr_eX is about that even if id wanted to, they wouldn't be able because of "geometry" issues.

Now i do argue, that for a single player game like Rage is best to sacrifice the 60 FPS and provide a more feature rich game, more if these features impact gameplay in a positive way.

FEAR.

Thank you.

 

[see5harp]

How dare you? The 1 second texture popping is nothing, it doesn't make the game any less fun at all.

The game is fun in the shooting sections, sure. I like the CCG. The texture pop in is an issue though. Graphics is what id is known for, and although I'm impressed with the image in the levels, if you are going to make a huge world that part of the game is going to be scrutinized. Like others, I've also found it jarring that within the "instances" there really isn't anything besides explosive tanks and glasses on top of tables that are even part of the world. It's a good looking game for sure, but I'm a lot more impressive with what Epic and others have done with UE3 this gen.

 

[Solo]

The level design in Rage is so much more interesting and distinct than Fallout 3. Many of the areas in Fallout almost feel as if they were dynamically generated while the levels in Rage all feel carefully hand crafted. They are so much more interesting to play through as a result. Fallout 3 still works great as it is an RPG first and foremost, but aside from the overworld (which is nice), every other area you explore feels pretty generic.

Yup. Rage has some of the best level design in the biz (another hallmark of id Software) and everything is handcrafted. Fallout is a typical Bethesda game world - its huge, its mostly barren, and its randomly generated/pre-fab city. I'll take the former over the latter any day of the week, even if it means getting a much smaller game world.

Five hours in and this is the most under-rated game of the year in the media to me. As soon as I got the glitches and vsync sorted it's been a really fun experience.

I have been saying for a long time even before Rage released that it was likely to be the most underrated game of the year, and I think time will show me to be correct on that.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Fallout 3 is as "handcrafted" as this is, since morrowind iirc the world is broken up into "cells" that you can look at and take apart in the editor.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yup. Rage has some of the best level design in the biz (another hallmark of id Software) and everything is handcrafted. Fallout is a typical Bethesda game world - its huge, its mostly barren, and its randomly generated/pre-fab city. I'll take the former over the latter any day of the week, even if it means getting a much smaller game world.



I have been saying for a long time even before Rage released that it was likely to be the most underrated game of the year, and I think time will show me to be correct on that.

Out of curiosity, what makes good level design? Seemed like fairly standard linear corridors with plenty of invisible walls to me.

 

[Brandon F]

So 360 or PC?

Last time I checked, there was constant complaints on the PC side.

 

[Echoplx]

So 360 or PC?

Last time I checked, there was constant complaints on the PC side.

PC if you have Nvidia, it's pretty much flawless now.

 

[CozMick]

The game is fun in the shooting sections, sure. I like the CCG. The texture pop in is an issue though. Graphics is what id is known for, and although I'm impressed with the image in the levels, if you are going to make a huge world that part of the game is going to be scrutinized. Like others, I've also found it jarring that within the "instances" there really isn't anything besides explosive tanks and glasses on top of tables that are even part of the world. It's a good looking game for sure, but I'm a lot more impressive with what Epic and others have done with UE3 this gen.

Hmmm UE3 is infamous for texture pop-in...

Every single UE3 game I have ever played has had texture pop-in, sometimes really horrific examples like Gears 1,2 and sometimes 3.

 

[StuBurns]

Texture pop-in in UE3 is a one off, once it's loaded it's there, in Rage it's constant.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

How is the 360 version?

 

[JaseC]

How is the 360 version?

It's the best of the two console versions, and also bests the PC version if you happen to own an AMD GPU. One gaming site uploaded about an hour of footage of the X360 version prior to release and texture pop-in was minimal.

 

[Solo]

Out of curiosity, what makes good level design? Seemed like fairly standard linear corridors with plenty of invisible walls to me.

Layout, art direction, encounters, and most important of all, pacing/flow, which is what id excels at.

 

[soulassssns]

Layout, art direction, encounters, and most important of all, pacing/flow, which is what id excels at.

Agree

 

[NullPointer]

PC if you have Nvidia, it's pretty much flawless now.

Running AMD 6950s here and its flawless now.

 

[JaseC]

Running AMD 6950s here and its flawless now.

If the performance thread is any indication, there are still many AMD GPU users experiencing issues. Apparently, with AMD it's luck of the draw, whereas with nvidia you're practically guaranteed to be fine.

 

[Solo]

Yeah, nVidia is flawless performance wise.

 

[Space Runaway]

I'm used to id games having worthless endings but this time even the final mission was total crap. I really enjoyed the game outside of that but jeez, what a sour way to end the game.

Guess I can start messing with the co-op missions now. Prob also do a rush playthrough on Nightmare to enjoy the main missions again while skipping the side quests this time.

 

[NullPointer]

If the performance thread is any indication, there are still many AMD GPU users experiencing issues. Apparently, with AMD it's luck of the draw, whereas with nvidia you're practically guaranteed to be fine.

Part of me wonders whether their release window tweaks have caused more harm than good.

Once the latest Rage patch came out I started from scratch, ditched the custom tweaks except for triple buffering a v-synch and got it to run 98% flawless, with a little load here and there and a little hitch every so often. Once I made a local cache file all that went away and its literally perfect now. No frame dips, no texture loads, at 8xAA and 4xAF.

My latest pics: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31684135&postcount=8326

 

[Brandon F]

So as an AMD 4890 owner I guess it's 360 recommended then?

 

[Metal-Geo]

Sweet mother of God. Jackal Canyon is perhaps the most beautiful level I've ever seen in a first person shooter. And the pacing is terrific.

Don't think I've ever loved a FPS more. <3

 

[JaseC]

Part of me wonders whether their release window tweaks have caused more harm than good.

Once the latest Rage patch came out I started from scratch, ditched the custom tweaks except for triple buffering a v-synch and got it to run 98% flawless, with a little load here and there and a little hitch every so often. Once I made a local cache file all that went away and its literally perfect now. No frame dips, no texture loads, at 8xAA and 4xAF.

My latest pics: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31684135&postcount=8326

The update managed to fix the texture pop-in completely for me; pre-patch it was very slight, but post-patch I haven't noticed a single instance. I assume id tweaked the texture caching somewhat.

I'll have to try to remember to take some screenshots when I play through the game again. Some areas are Valve-esque in their artistic beauty.

Edit: Speaking of AMD's OGL support, it strikes me as profoundly stupid that they didn't get their shit together after the kerfuffle with Brink.

So as an AMD 4890 owner I guess it's 360 recommended then?

A 4890 will serve you well once AMD get on the ball, which they will do eventually. There's also a possibility that you'll be one of the lucky few members of Team Red who manage to run the game just fine.

 

[StuBurns]

Sweet mother of God. Jackal Canyon is perhaps the most beautiful level I've ever seen in a first person shooter. And the pacing is terrific.

Don't think I've ever loved a FPS more. <3

That's my next level, just the bridge to get to the door was pretty damn impressive.