Raphael Colantonio (Arkane Co-Founder) "Why is no-one talking about the elephant in the room? Cough cough (Gamepass)"
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
When your own devs are publicly outing the CEO's BS, it's not a good look.
Spencer and Booty needed to go a long time ago.
Spencer and Booty needed to go a long time ago.
Valt7786
Member
Gamepass sounds great on paper, especially for the consumer, but yeah of course it eats into sales. We've seen it recently with Doom TDA especially.
But Xbox overpromised with it and underdelivered. Personally, I fell for their bait before Series X came out with their promise of Day one exclusives. New Gears, Fable, Perfect Dark, Halo etc. That sounded great.
Where are they MS? It's been what, 6 years and we've only seen Halo released and it was a wet fart. The rest we've only seen tiny glimpses of and now you've flat out cancelled one.
Gamepass needs to go, it doesn't work for the bigger titles/companies. For smaller indies etc, yeah it might be a good starting point, look at Expedition 33. But think how much money Sandfall could make if they dont put the next one on GP now that everyone knows they have the talent.
But Xbox overpromised with it and underdelivered. Personally, I fell for their bait before Series X came out with their promise of Day one exclusives. New Gears, Fable, Perfect Dark, Halo etc. That sounded great.
Where are they MS? It's been what, 6 years and we've only seen Halo released and it was a wet fart. The rest we've only seen tiny glimpses of and now you've flat out cancelled one.
Gamepass needs to go, it doesn't work for the bigger titles/companies. For smaller indies etc, yeah it might be a good starting point, look at Expedition 33. But think how much money Sandfall could make if they dont put the next one on GP now that everyone knows they have the talent.
Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
When devs get scared, you know you're getting an actual good deal as a consumer. None of these developers have to participate in it. What they're worried about is not being able to compete against it and have people buy their games for $80. Good, I hope they lose sleep over it. Seeing developers openly trying to push for price collusion shows you how threatened they are. They are scared you're getting a good deal, scared that you have a lot to play. They want you to have less options that cost more.
Whats especially hilarious is someone from Larian parroting this bullshit. Reminds me of the complaints about Baldurs Gate offering the consumer too much at too high quality so other developers started complaining about it. Pretty ironic they are just as quick to do that same kind of complaining. A lot of developers have this tendency to treat the consumer like trash and like they are owed their money. Make a product we want at a price we want or retire. These complaints are the screeching of someone getting beat on price and selection
Whats especially hilarious is someone from Larian parroting this bullshit. Reminds me of the complaints about Baldurs Gate offering the consumer too much at too high quality so other developers started complaining about it. Pretty ironic they are just as quick to do that same kind of complaining. A lot of developers have this tendency to treat the consumer like trash and like they are owed their money. Make a product we want at a price we want or retire. These complaints are the screeching of someone getting beat on price and selection
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Astray
Member
Colantonio left Arkane either around the time MS took over Zenimax or right before. He's no longer employed by Zenimax and has already shipped a game since then.
LavitzSlambert
Member
Game Pass only works in a world that won't optimize with its existence in mind. We already see consumer behavior changing due to the model. It's a very good deal right now, yes, and worked in the age of cheap loans. It's not sustainable in the current economy. Game Pass relies on new content, and when we see a large pullback in development combined with longer dev cycles, that means less content or larger gaps between games.
vaibhavpisal
Member
Is this a concern if next Xbox is niche system with 10 million sales?
On pc, users say they prefer steam.
On pc, users say they prefer steam.
Skifi28
Member
Terrible take. Everything went over your head.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
the price hike cannot come soon enough. Phil, do your thing!!!!
Xbox 360 slim
Member
They built their entire brand around a sub service instead of making great games, and adding that service as a cherry on top. So stupid. Where's the games?
JPSLotus97T
Member
If the economics of Game Pass make any sort of sense, why isn't Sony doing day 1 on first party stuff on their thing?
Bonfires Down
Member
They don't provide any numbers but I'm supposed to take their word that Game Pass is only sustainable because it is subsidized by microsoft? Game Pass Ultimate isn't even particularly cheap anymore.
Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
It is helpful for the ones on it. Layoffs are not related to GP. Its related to dev hell projects and getting out of the exclusive first party hardware model.
These people are complaining because they have to compete against it.
Its a choice. You don't have to do it. EA and Ubisoft both also do it. Sony can do whatever they want. They are in a stronger position than MS so they want to collect the same recurring revenue but offer the consumer far less. The reason they can do that is because Sony fans put up with it and sub anyway. People wouldn't be on GP unless it had very compelling offerings. They have to compete harder.
Microsoft ruthlessly cracked down on their gaming business and have clearly wielded cancellations and layoffs for struggling areas…but we're supposed to believe GP is cratering their business even when they've left it alone?
The tweets in the OP say GP is only being sustained by Microsoft's 'infinite money' meanwhile they just canceled projects and killed studios because they clearly aren't willing to spend 'infinite money'
Gamepass works for me as a consumer.
The tweets in the OP say GP is only being sustained by Microsoft's 'infinite money' meanwhile they just canceled projects and killed studios because they clearly aren't willing to spend 'infinite money'
Gamepass works for me as a consumer.
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Astray
Member
My friend, these are not massive AAA publishers that are upset their line is trending downwards a bit. They're smaller devs that know that their next game bombing could have them lose everything.
One of the strangest replies I've ever seen tbh. "Devs scared so it must be a great deal".
As if we didn't just see Microsoft do like 5 mass layoffs in 18 months!
Crispy Gamer
Member
Yup I let my sub run out it has become obvious to me that the current GP structure is bad for the industry it definitely should be just for legacy titles. Conditioning a player base that games are eventually coming to a service is detrimental to sales it was disingenuous how the media sold it as a service that increased game sales just because Phil said so.
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Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
Exactly correct.
Sebastian1295
Member
The xbox rewards program ended. No need to throw out nonsense that has 0 basis in reality like this anymore. No ones buying what you're selling.
MS don't releasing GP profits is the main proof the service is unsustainable.
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
my refunds feel pretty sustainable though
AmuroChan
Member
The economics of these streaming platforms only make sense if it can reach a critical mass of subscribers. Disney+ only just turned its first year of profit after reaching over 100+ million subs and scaling back expenses. GP has a looong way to go and its subscriber base has been mostly stagnant for the past couple years.
Killjoy-NL
Member
Are we going to act like this is some insightful stuff?
It was obvious from the start.
It was obvious from the start.
Hugare
Member
Have AC Shadows or any other game from Ubi launched on their subscription service on day one?
Or any from EA?
Genuine question
Astray
Member
Legacy titles can actually benefit greatly from a sub service because you would see a similar effect to when a film bombs in the cinemas but does great on DVD/Streaming. It's a second chance at relevance essentially.
Putting day 1 AAA on subscription is just suicide though, even companies like Disney are touting new film releases as "only in theaters" and have essentially used streaming as a DVD release substitute.
I played Indiana Jones for free with a GP voucher I had lying around my drawer for a few weeks, was it great that I tried a game out that I wasn't sure about without paying? Yes, but only for me.. Because that's a $40-70 that could have gone to Machine Games depending on when I'd have taken the plunge!
By Microsoft's own admission it's not growing to the point that it needs to be for sustained profits.
Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
Of course.
But we've heard from quite a number of smaller devs that praise the service so…
guess which service they kept even through all these layoffs?
MandingoMcThickens
Member
Literally all that matters to me, everything else is just noise
yurinka
Member
Yes, Microsoft's failed idea with GP was to outspend any other gamesub by putting a lot of games on it day one there in order to kill all the other gamesubs, and also to kill the currently mainstream business model in gaming that is focused on selling games, which would destroy the other console platform holders.
Since MS gets a ton of money thanks to the government, military, Windows and other divisions could afford to keep dozens of billions in the process, something the other console or PC platform holders can't. By killing every other platform holder, they'd dominate the market and would be able to raise price and moderate the budget, reaching a scale maybe at 100-200M subs where could start to be profitable again.
They failed hard with GP, only reached around 25M and later 35M when added XBL. It didn't help even to spend almost $100B in acquisitions.
So if MS wants to continue in gaming without to keep losing billions per year they have to stop putting games day one on GP (at least in non-GPU tiers, since the amount of players there is so low and its price is so expensive that doesn't affect their sales) and focus to sell games and addons instead in all platforms, particularly mobile, PC and the non-MS consoles.
Since MS gets a ton of money thanks to the government, military, Windows and other divisions could afford to keep dozens of billions in the process, something the other console or PC platform holders can't. By killing every other platform holder, they'd dominate the market and would be able to raise price and moderate the budget, reaching a scale maybe at 100-200M subs where could start to be profitable again.
They failed hard with GP, only reached around 25M and later 35M when added XBL. It didn't help even to spend almost $100B in acquisitions.
So if MS wants to continue in gaming without to keep losing billions per year they have to stop putting games day one on GP (at least in non-GPU tiers, since the amount of players there is so low and its price is so expensive that doesn't affect their sales) and focus to sell games and addons instead in all platforms, particularly mobile, PC and the non-MS consoles.
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Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
So many people went against simple logic.
Devs & Publishers basically sold their soul & would have been at the Marcy of Microsoft if this would have killed off retail sales
Thread 'Game Pass is hurting day one software sales on Xbox could this push publishers & devs away from Xbox Scarlett or will they wait it out?' https://www.neogaf.com/threads/game...ox-scarlett-or-will-they-wait-it-out.1508392/
Devs & Publishers basically sold their soul & would have been at the Marcy of Microsoft if this would have killed off retail sales
Thread 'Game Pass is hurting day one software sales on Xbox could this push publishers & devs away from Xbox Scarlett or will they wait it out?' https://www.neogaf.com/threads/game...ox-scarlett-or-will-they-wait-it-out.1508392/
So many people went against simple logic.
Devs & Publishers basically sold their soul & would have been at the Marcy of Microsoft if this would have killed off retail sales
Thread 'Game Pass is hurting day one software sales on Xbox could this push publishers & devs away from Xbox Scarlett or will they wait it out?' https://www.neogaf.com/threads/game...ox-scarlett-or-will-they-wait-it-out.1508392/
Not sure how is this relevant in any way to this discussion now that the Xbox console is pretty much the smallest market for their games
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
Real talk the fat fucking elephants are Satya and Amy from the Hood. Your stereotypical parasytes steamrolling towards tech bubble 2.0
Xbox for all it's failing is just a drop in the ocean right now. The division was going to get sacrificed either way. Their M&A spree just made the sacrifice even bigger
Xbox for all it's failing is just a drop in the ocean right now. The division was going to get sacrificed either way. Their M&A spree just made the sacrifice even bigger
MrRibeye
Member
Game Pass is not the problem. If it were, Sony wouldn't celebrate the success they're having with increased PS Plus Premium subscriptions.
Matt Booty is taking too long.
Undead Labs is taking too long. It's been 7 years and no State of Decay 3.
Playground is taking too long with Fable.
No Gears in 6 years.
Unfinished Redfall.
Not reading the room and releasing South of Midnight, Avowed.
Spending 75 billion on Activision, instead of spending 1 billion on a mega Halo, like Take-Two does with GTA.
Celebrating pride month and disability month after the political wind change in 2025.
Matt Booty is taking too long.
Undead Labs is taking too long. It's been 7 years and no State of Decay 3.
Playground is taking too long with Fable.
No Gears in 6 years.
Unfinished Redfall.
Not reading the room and releasing South of Midnight, Avowed.
Spending 75 billion on Activision, instead of spending 1 billion on a mega Halo, like Take-Two does with GTA.
Celebrating pride month and disability month after the political wind change in 2025.
Astray
Member
Small indies are actually a different story because the budgets are vastly lower, and most of them are multiplat, so they take the visibility from a GP day 1 inclusion and parlay it into sales on other platforms. But even that is now risky too.
The issue is now that Microsoft doesn't have the Xbox platform as top-of-mind, then what incentive do they have to offer the same kind of offers anymore? We've already been seeing reports of reduced offers from both PS and Xbox on subscription inclusions. And now the head of 3rd party at Xbox was one of the casualties of this mass layoff.
I mean they can't shutter it overnight can they? That would be a massive loss of face (and it would probably completely crater the revenue from the consumers that got used to playing "for free").
IMO, what they're going to do is rework it and take the model into a place where it's more focused on providing a value prop to the PC marketplace.
Sony is literally touting how they did it with no day 1 AAA titles, and even told reporters that they'll never do it.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
My take is that MS is killing studios and expensive projects because of Game Pass. Because every MS published game is available on Game Pass on day 1 meant that with each new studio and publisher MS acquired the costs went up and up and up while at the same time Game Pass revenues weren't keeping up at all. First MS started releasing their games on PS5 to get an additional revenue stream, but it's still not enough so they're slashing personnel at studios and killing games to keep the costs down.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
If the price people want is $0 it is equally unsustainable… anyways the other problem with the GamePass model is that you have a single party, MS, deciding what how the service redistributes part of its revenue back to devs and it affects how games are designed and sold too.
Sebastian1295
Member
Cannot compute ... gamepass bad .... cannot compute ....
Go ask those thousands of developers who've lost their jobs if gamepass is good for the industry. Stop gaslighting and shilling.
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hououinkyouma00
Member
No.
There is almost zero chance Game Pass isn't related to everything. Game Pass is expensive to maintain and even more so every time you get another game on the service. They spent over $80B on studios and they aren't selling as many full games as other platforms and sure as hell aren't selling as many consoles. Game Pass is the only thing they have to rely on and while it's grown I doubt it's grown enough to make up for all the spending Microsoft has done (especially in the eyes of upper management outside of Xbox itself).
It's not Game pass's fault people got laid off but if you think it's not part of the overall picture causing layoffs then idk what to tell you.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Yep, this was their "very pro consumer" (sarcasm) goal and some people are more than happy to reach it if it means they get a few years of games at a very low cost… Turkeys do get fed before Thanksgiving too
.
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TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
No trying to defend GP but what does it have to do with all those layoffs? I think those are because of it's studios being unable of releasing any games like Perfect Dark, Fable or Gears.
I'd put the blame on bad (terrible) studio management and shitty hiring practices instead.
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Demos. Demos. Demos. I'm willing to pay full price for a game if I see it's in decent working order and has the potential to hold my interest longterm. Free early access can help, but often the games are so barebones people lose interest before final versions come out.
Sebastian1295
Member
Gamepass kills game sales for first party studios which in turn means less profit to keep things afloat. So the only way to sustain gamepass is to cut jobs and reduce costs because it's not bringing in enough profit to sustain itself.