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Red Letter Media |OT| of Movies, Murderers, and Pizza Rolls

C

Cheerilee

Member
Erigu said:
I'm pretty sure that was just a theory, and it was debunked by Moore.
Click to expand...

It was deliberately vague, because they knew DC wouldn't allow them to actually show Batman killing Joker.

Batman tells Joker that their game must end, now, otherwise they'll both be destroyed. Batman offers to help Joker find his way back to sanity. Joker flat out refuses, and tells Batman a joke about one mental patient refusing the "help" of another mental patient, because the one fears the other is going to kill him (and he's right). Batman laughs (note: Batman never laughs at Joker's jokes, and Joker's plot in this story was meant to create another Joker), then he puts his hands upon the Joker while laughing uncontrollably, then the camera looks away, then the laughter stops, then everything goes quiet, then everything goes dark.

Also note: Joker's joke specifically references one of the patients making a "bridge" with a flashlight beam, and Joker/the patient fears that Batman/the other patient will switch off the flashlight, cutting off the bridge and killing the Joker/patient. After the camera pans down to show the beam from the police car's headlight, the headlight switches off.

I'm not aware of any debunking of that by Moore. Can't find anything with Google.
 
C

call_kotaku

Member
I wouldn't call Marvel's take lighthearted or formulaic, they're just very practical about what's effective, both in terms of storytelling and franchise-building. Jessica Jones is darker than anything DC TV/film will ever make. Marvel just take established templates from other genres (ensemble action, heist movie, hero origin, buddy comedy, romantic comedy, etc) and execute them as effectively as they can for their properties. On a certain level Marvel understands that people need to care about their characters (which is why the finale in the Avengers isn't as dumb and gratuitous as the one in MoS, because that battle was about the payoff of watching the Avengers settle their differences and work together. The emotional payoff matters more than the mechanics of the plot), and more importantly they want to demonstrate why their characters are special to an unconvinced audience.

I think "what does being a superhero mean in the 21st century" is a fantastic premise, but Snyder's take on it has no substance whatsoever. His analysis is just "heroes suck, people suck, people from other planets suck, stuff blows up and it matters because tons of people died", which is pointless and also incredibly cynical.
 
B

brianmcdoogle

Member
I haven't seen BvS, because I don't want to waste my time, but one thing I'd like to chime in and add is that to be a visual director, one must convey ideas through visuals. "Visual director" doesn't mean "it looks cool".

And for what it is worth, I was a bit disappointed in Deadpool. It was entertaining and laughed hard a few times and I enjoyed it for the most part, but the way people discuss the film, I thought it was actually going to be very subversive. Instead, it still felt very formulaic, albeit with strong language, nudity, and more explicit violence.
 
E

Erigu

Member
Cheerilee said:
I'm not aware of any debunking of that by Moore.
Click to expand...
I looked around, and it looks like it wasn't debunked by Moore himself in an interview, but rather by his script:
Page 46, frame 3:
He and the Joker are going to kill each other one day. It’s preordained. They may as well enjoy this one rare moment of contact while it lasts.

Frame 5:
They are now both helpless with laughter and have collapsed forward onto each other, both ragged and bloody, both holding the other up as they stand there clinging together in the rain.
Click to expand...
 
B

brianmcdoogle

Member
davepoobond said:
Isn't that just a "director"?
Click to expand...

That sounds like a lot of work.

I mean, cinematography just means "which movies looks the prettiest". Also, Best Sound Design at the Oscars, according to people who know more than the average person, means "this movie made a lot of noise". Of course, those that vote in the Oscars don't know the difference between sound "mixing" and "editing", and speaking of editing, Best Editing means "movie that has the most edits/cuts".

But... what was I talking about?
 
F

Flipyap

Member
Cheerilee said:
Also note: Joker's joke specifically references one of the patients making a "bridge" with a flashlight beam, and Joker/the patient fears that Batman/the other patient will switch off the flashlight, cutting off the bridge and killing the Joker/patient. After the camera pans down to show the beam from the police car's headlight, the headlight switches off.
Click to expand...
A simpler explanation, one that doesn't depend entirely on conjecture, would be that the bridge symbolized the fleeting bond shared by the two crazies.

Or it was never meant to mean anything. The script describes entirely different reflections that don't evoke the joke and certainly don't hint at a shocking twist ending.
 
T

TonkatsuAddict

Member
UrbanRats said:
Well that's one of the reasons why i had problems getting into superhero comics as a kid (or any comicbook that went on forever).
Every time there's some character evolution, they'd find a way to revert back, it was utterly frustrating.
But even then, you can do it for a movie series, you can do it for a spin off non-canon thing.
Simply because you're going to reboot it in 3 movies' time, like they did with Spiderman.

So Superman killing in the Snyderverse, is not really a big deal.
Click to expand...

There's a rather significant difference between "Let's do this one-off story where we explore some interesting themes and story elements that wouldn't work in the main-line series" and "We're just gonna reboot this crap in a couple movies anyway, so let's see some EXPLOSIONS!"

Erigu said:
I'm pretty sure that was just a theory, and it was debunked by Moore.
Click to expand...

I mean, the possibility is pretty clearly implied, but it happens off camera. You don't assume someone is dead if you don't see a body, and I'm sure the author of The Killing Joke knows that. The cutting off of the lights and laughter implies death, the off camera implies survival, in my opinion, it's left intentionally ambiguous.
 
S

Sblargh

Banned
call_kotaku said:
I wouldn't call Marvel's take lighthearted or formulaic, they're just very practical about what's effective, both in terms of storytelling and franchise-building. Jessica Jones is darker than anything DC TV/film will ever make. Marvel just take established templates from other genres (ensemble action, heist movie, hero origin, buddy comedy, romantic comedy, etc) and execute them as effectively as they can for their properties. On a certain level Marvel understands that people need to care about their characters (which is why the finale in the Avengers isn't as dumb and gratuitous as the one in MoS, because that battle was about the payoff of watching the Avengers settle their differences and work together. The emotional payoff matters more than the mechanics of the plot), and more importantly they want to demonstrate why their characters are special to an unconvinced audience.

I think "what does being a superhero mean in the 21st century" is a fantastic premise, but Snyder's take on it has no substance whatsoever. His analysis is just "heroes suck, people suck, people from other planets suck, stuff blows up and it matters because tons of people died", which is pointless and also incredibly cynical.
Click to expand...

This.
All this talk about tone seems to ignore the fact that marvel movies are usually good and competent at what they want to do (straight superhero movie, spy superhero movie, war superhero movie, etc) and Zack Snyder usually fails at what he wants to do.
And I don't think he even achieves the "at least is adnirable that he tried to do something different even if it failed" because he fails at basic levels.
The action is confusing, motivations are flimsly, characters are uninteresting instead of challeging, and so on.
First learn how to make a standard fun summer dumb action movie and then proceed to subvert it.
In any artform, it seems one of the most common mistakes are people who try to go beyond the basics without having learned the basics.
 
F

Freeza Under The Shower

Member
Cheerilee said:
Because there's no coming back from it. Batman can't be Batman anymore after it. It undermines the whole "Batman doesn't kill" thing (to the point where some people nowadays think that part of Batman is a joke). Batman's core is "guy in a cape runs around punching bad guys" but once you start exploring the deeper implications of things, they start to fall apart. Now Batman needs to change in response to things, but when your franchise is built on an iconic character, change can be bad.
Click to expand...

To be fair, OG Batman actually was a murderous vigilante, similar to the take the CW did on S1 Arrow. If showing the development of a 'no-kill rule' is the point, then starting from that point is legitimate.

But that's not what they did, so *sad horn*.
 
U

UrbanRats

Member
TonkatsuAddict said:
There's a rather significant difference between "Let's do this one-off story where we explore some interesting themes and story elements that wouldn't work in the main-line series" and "We're just gonna reboot this crap in a couple movies anyway, so let's see some EXPLOSIONS!"
Click to expand...

Are you implying that i'm suggesting the latter? Because i'm not.
I'm saying that movies are to be considered stand alone stories, and you can use them to explore stuff you wouldn't in the regular, neverending comics (such as Batman or Superman killing).

Also, to Call Kotaku, i agree Snyder has given these films (at least MoS) no substance, i think MoS is a piece of shit, but i'm saying the premise isn't wrong in and out of itself, which seemed to be the argument Mike and Jay made in the episode.
 
R

Rimon-hanit

Member
UrbanRats said:
but i'm saying the premise isn't wrong in and out of itself, which seemed to be the argument Mike and Jay made in the episode.
Click to expand...

I don't think that was their argument. I think their point was, that in order to explore a more bleak theme, a Superhero movie, that naturally entails a higher level of escapism then other movies, will require a more subtle and remote approach.

But either way I don't think that was their main criticism. I think their main problem was simply the lack of motivation and clear narrative.
 
T

TonkatsuAddict

Member
UrbanRats said:
Are you implying that i'm suggesting the latter? Because i'm not.
I'm saying that movies are to be considered stand alone stories, and you can use them to explore stuff you wouldn't in the regular, neverending comics (such as Batman or Superman killing).
Click to expand...

That's assuming you actually explore things, which MoS did not, and it sounds like BvS didn't really either. Your words were "So Superman killing in the Snyderverse, is not really a big deal." Except it is a big deal, because it screws with a core part of the characters without gaining anything for it except big, dumb explosions. And with DC seemingly going the Marvel route of building up a big movie-verse, they really can't be considered all that stand-alone of stories anymore.

Erigu said:
Did you read the excerpt of the script I quoted above?
Click to expand...

I did see that. Not really sure what to make of it, honestly, considering it isn't actually in the comic. And there is presumably a reason he decided to change things in between writing the script and finishing those last few panels.
 
E

Erigu

Member
TonkatsuAddict said:
Not really sure what to make of it, honestly, considering it isn't actually in the comic.
Click to expand...
Well, it means that when Moore wrote that script, he didn't intend for the ending to be ambiguous / to hint at Batman killing the Joker right there and then.

And there is presumably a reason he decided to change things in between writing the script and finishing those last few panels.
Click to expand...
What change are you referring to?
 
U

UrbanRats

Member
TonkatsuAddict said:
That's assuming you actually explore things, which MoS did not, and it sounds like BvS didn't really either. Your words were "So Superman killing in the Snyderverse, is not really a big deal." Except it is a big deal, because it screws with a core part of the characters without gaining anything for it except big, dumb explosions. And with DC seemingly going the Marvel route of building up a big movie-verse, they really can't be considered all that stand-alone of stories anymore.
Click to expand...
Again, i agree the Snyderverse didn't deliver on the premise, but the problem isn't the premise itself, it's its delivery.
So the complaint, in my eyes, shouldn't be "why didn't they stick to the original (lighthearted) tone?" but "why didn't they deliver on the new tone? (with some substance)".

Then again, i have yet to find a movie or TV show about superheroes that does the darker tone really well, i guess the Nolan stuff is as good as we have.
Even Daredevil is pretty damn crass about it.
 
F

firehawk12

Subete no aware
So Sunday's stream is going to be the biggest fucking catastrophe they've ever conceived. I can't believe they got trolled by twitch chat so easily.
 
S

Shy

Member
plasmawave said:
It's gonna be great.
Click to expand...
KZSBFhB.gif
 
T

TonkatsuAddict

Member
Erigu said:
What change are you referring to?
Click to expand...

The change from explicit to ambiguous.

UrbanRats said:
Again, i agree the Snyderverse didn't deliver on the premise, but the problem isn't the premise itself, it's its delivery.
So the complaint, in my eyes, shouldn't be "why didn't they stick to the original (lighthearted) tone?" but "why didn't they deliver on the new tone? (with some substance)".

Then again, i have yet to find a movie or TV show about superheroes that does the darker tone really well, i guess the Nolan stuff is as good as we have.
Even Daredevil is pretty damn crass about it.
Click to expand...

I would hardly call the Batman people are asking for "lighthearted." I've been reading (and rereading) Batman comics recently, and honestly, the Nolan-verse isn't really any darker, it's just more realistic.

But regardless, I just don't see the point. If you want a hero that murders people, make a Die Hard movie, or a Punisher movie, or make up your own character. Just because you can explore ideas like "a Batman who kills" when you do movies doesn't mean you should.
 
E

Erigu

Member
TonkatsuAddict said:
The change from explicit to ambiguous.
Click to expand...
But there was no change. Here's the script, and here's the last page.
You're merely assuming that ending was meant to be ambiguous as to whether or not Batman was strangling the Joker, and according to the script (which was followed to the letter), it really wasn't.
 
U

UrbanRats

Member
TonkatsuAddict said:
But regardless, I just don't see the point. If you want a hero that murders people, make a Die Hard movie, or a Punisher movie, or make up your own character. Just because you can explore ideas like "a Batman who kills" when you do movies doesn't mean you should.
Click to expand...

It's not that i want it.
I'm not really into super hero comic books (or super hero movies) so i have very little expectations one way or the other, but i don't think the idea should be ruled out.
After all, my original point was simply that superhero movies don't have to be jolly or light hearted, and can integrate real life, topical issues, to make "heavier" points (or as Mike puts it, "Superman in the 21th century").
It just so happens that Snyder isn't able to deliver, on such a premise.
 
T

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
firehawk12 said:
Honestly, if you don't know, it's better to be surprised. This is one of those times where I think spoiling it would kind of ruin the experience that they are going for.
Click to expand...
Well seeing as I don't watch the streams live and I don't watch archives because Twitch doesn't have speed options and they take a month to upload archives to YouTube I'd really like to be let in on this silly joke.
 
C

Can Crusher

Banned
brianmcdoogle said:
I haven't seen BvS, because I don't want to waste my time, but one thing I'd like to chime in and add is that to be a visual director, one must convey ideas through visuals. "Visual director" doesn't mean "it looks cool".

And for what it is worth, I was a bit disappointed in Deadpool. It was entertaining and laughed hard a few times and I enjoyed it for the most part, but the way people discuss the film, I thought it was actually going to be very subversive. Instead, it still felt very formulaic, albeit with strong language, nudity, and more explicit violence.
Click to expand...

What works in deadpool is that it stays impressively true to the character, and on top of that it delivers a heart warming romantic relationship. It really works.
 
B

brianmcdoogle

Member
Can Crusher said:
What works in deadpool is that it stays impressively true to the character, and on top of that it delivers a heart warming romantic relationship. It really works.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was kind of surprised by how heartwarming the relationship was, and probably the most so of the comic book movies... I think? I don't know. I'd need to research that a bit more, but it is certainly more tangible of a relationship that the ones in the Nolan Batman films or the new Spiderman movies.

Also, the romance-angle had my favorite joke in the entire film. I'll spoiler tag the joke just in case:
During the sex montage, I loved when they were in their sweaters, reading, and they each wish each other a happy Lent.

Eh. Since I'm talking Deadpool now, I have a question on the opening credits. I don't think I'd seen an entirely made up and jokey replacement credit scene before in a movie. I know the Chris Rock movie where he runs for President opened by listing a bunch of politicians, faking as if they were in the movie, only to then say "will not be in this movie", but I'm wondering if that was an entirely unique and novel joke in Deadpool.

Again, I liked the movie, but I thought it would be a lot weirder than it was because I head a lot of "subversive" descriptions applied to the movie. But I'm not a comic book person at all, so my opinion on it probably strays from the norm. Like, I thought Guardians of the Galaxy was a bit more daring at times than Deadpool.

One of these days i'm going to post a giant thread about what someone who never liked comic books as a kid thinks about all of the comic books, and why I think some movies are really good and most aren't (and I might even give a bit of a defense to ASM2 since I know everyone hates that one, and why Iron Man 3 has one of the most infuriating endings I've seen in any movie in a while).
 
F

firehawk12

Subete no aware
The Real Abed said:
Well seeing as I don't watch the streams live and I don't watch archives because Twitch doesn't have speed options and they take a month to upload archives to YouTube I'd really like to be let in on this silly joke.
Click to expand...
You will probably only need to watch one minute of Sunday's stream to get it, for what it's worth. :p
 
M

mattiewheels

And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
Watching that without seeing the movie is hilarious. It sounds like a goddamn mess.
 
L

Laputa_94

Member
I started to listen to their commentary tracks again. Last night I watched Batman & Robin. I never watched the movie since I was a kid. I always remembered it being colorful and Mr. Freeze sang. What I did not remember however is how Alfred ate so much pizza.
 
Davey Cakes

Davey Cakes

Member
mattiewheels said:
Watching that without seeing the movie is hilarious. It sounds like a goddamn mess.
Click to expand...
Batman vs Superman, to me, isn't a well put-together film. This aspect of it doesn't seem like it affects everyone, though. I think some are just more perceptive.

I appreciate movies with good editing and pacing after BvS, which was all over the place. It didn't feel good to watch the movie for two and a half hours.

It feels long and it's harder to feel invested when you can't even piece together the character motivations properly in the early going.

All this said, there's an audience that liked the movie. I know someone who flat out said they loved it. Such a thing isn't impossible. And there are some elements of the movie I appreciated, but didn't seem come together properly. But, the structure may not have mattered to every person; they may have seen through it.

The film's a goddamn mess, which is why I couldn't enjoy it. But I'm realizing that it wasn't a complete failure in every sense.
 
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