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[AlphaDump]

Can you please explain what's wrong with whataboutism in the context of powerful state actors committing crimes against eachother? How is it different from just providing broader historical/political context?

Just asking questions in defense of your friend, eh? Why is whataboutism wrong. Jesus christ.

Go ahead and keep exposing yourself. Comrade.

 

[TimeEffect]

I honestly am so lost and have no clue what is going on. Any article with a decent summary on whats going on? Whats this about golden showers and hookers

 

[Sweeney Tom]

https://twitter.com/ChuckTingle/status/819255548990210048

 

[HammerOfThor]

I know Trump just blows hot air out of his ass, but what was he attempting to say with the "Are we living in Nazi Germany" Tweet?

 

[TyrantII]

This is the definition of clutching at straws and it's actually getting embarrassing.

Even if there are Trump sex tapes...So What???
What have these got to do with anything?


And the USA invaded countries to spread democracy.

Actually your post is clutching at straws. You're becoming unhinged. Please step back to reality, before it's too late.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Even if there are Trump sex tapes...So What???
What have these got to do with anything?

Trump is going to be the president, who by his own words, will create the most jobs, THAT GOD HAS EVER CREATED.

God doesn't look kindly upon adultery.

 

[Isaac Otherworld]

This is the definition of clutching at straws and it's actually getting embarrassing.

Even if there are Trump sex tapes...So What???
What have these got to do with anything?


And the USA invaded countries to spread democracy.

Can someone go through this guys post history for me? I'm at work.

 

[Reeks]

This was a good read. Especially this part.



mindblown.gif

Tried and true tactic relying on inhibition of return.

 

[habithipster]

LEAK

THE

TAPES

TAPE

THE

LEAKS

(FSB)

 

[Already Torn]

This was a good read. Especially this part.



mindblown.gif

That's some Game of Thrones shit, and we're stuck with Joffrey.

 

[DragonSworne]

This was a good read. Especially this part.



mindblown.gif

Aka how to make yourself look like a mastermind no matter the situation. Yea, I'm sure Russia wanted this to leak, and I'm sure they want their puppet to be impeached. Yep, all a part of their master plan.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

I know Trump just blows hot air out of his ass, but what was he attempting to say with the "Are we living in Nazi Germany" Tweet?

"That wasn't supposed to happen for another ten days!"

 

[Sweeney Tom]

Can someone go through this guys post history for me? I'm at work.

"no puppet, YOU'RE PUPPET"

"EMAILS"

 

[sflufan]

The Guardian has a story on the provenance of this 35-page report.

The use of "Russian oligarchs living in the West" as sources doesn't fill me with confidence as to its ultimate veracity.

 

[Nafai1123]

I hope tapes aren't the new e-mails.

Why not? If it buries his political career like it buried Hillarys it's a win. Though the situations aren't the same obvious.

 

[sugarhigh4242]

Re: tapes.

Somebody having a number of tapes* doesn't mean that they are in possession of other parties besides the FSB. And unlike the CIA and the NSA, the FSB is not known for being leaky, unless said leaks work in their favour. I wouldn't count on them being released/leaked unless somebody other than Russia has them.



*doesn't even have to be sexual tapes at all to be incriminatory or damaging.



It's a fallacy. Fallacies have no use in a sincere conversation.

But we're not talking about mathematical logic arguments, we're talking about politics. I'm sure there's cases where "whataboutism" is invalid, but if you look at (for example) the Israel/Palestine conflict, it's back-and-forth whataboutism going back centuries. it doesn't invalidate one side. It just explains why the conflict is what it is. If you just say "Hamas shot rockets into Tel Aviv, they're terrorists!", that's a pretty incomplete interpretation of the conflict.

 

[Dorsal Axe]

IMO it's over. The deep state has made its decision, just a question of when at this point. Trump chose poorly when he went on the offensive against the IC, they will place self-preservation above his presidency

.

Yup. Too much dirt, too many enemies. Pissing of the intelligence community is certain doom for the best of them, let alone someone as pathetic and out of his depth as Trump.

 

[AlphaDump]

Actually your post is clutching at straws. You're becoming unhinged. Please step back to reality, before it's too late.

Nah, not unhinged, he is just exposing his own norm.

 

[D4Danger]

I can't wait for the film adaptation of all this.

 

[sphagnum]

New article by John Schindler former NSA officer (@20committee)

http://observer.com/2017/01/donald-trump-press-conference-prague-michael-cohen/

I'm surprised this was allowed since The Observer is run by Kushner.

 

[SomewhatGroovy]

This is the definition of clutching at straws and it's actually getting embarrassing.

Even if there are Trump sex tapes...So What???
What have these got to do with anything?


And the USA invaded countries to spread democracy.

Listen, I do not think anyone gives two shits about what this dude loves to do behind closed doors. Just as we push back on government to stay out of our rooms, love lives, and bathrooms, we too should be vigilant and refuse going on suicide watch over this.

What IS on everyone's minds is if this has pressured Trump to dealings with Russia that puts our National Security at risk. This was really the meat and potatoes of the buzzfeed report, not the pissing contest.

 

[Phreaker]

Meanwhile, a fire at Watergate..

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...3th-Floor-of-Watergate-Complex-410422245.html

 

[jstripes]

Does it matter? Its earth-shattering. Everyone who thinks otherwise just really hates Trump to the point of being willing to believe fantastical claims about him. Thats part of why it reminds me of pizzagate. People hated Hillary so much they were ready to believe the worst about her. We should be just as discerning even when its the guy we don't like.

On one hand you have a grassroots conspiracy theory about Hillary Clinton running a child sex ring out of a popular pizza parlour, based on paranoid interpretations of innocuous fragments of emails.

On the other hand you have a dossier from a reputable source, that the intelligence community finds extremely interesting, documenting a well-known narcissist being assisted and manipulated by a foreign power for mutual gain.

I dunno, guys. Both sides are equal, right?

 

[Jorok Goldblade]

This is very promising. So sad we have to hope that such a mind-boggling and disgusting scandal is true and verifiable to disenfranchise the elected new president of the free world. I'm young and haven't seen much, but I take it we've fallen very far as a nation this time, haven't we?

Germany will be the leaders of the free world by the time this decade is over. US and UK will have lost too much clout and credibility.

 

[Yamauchi]

LEAK

THE

TAPES

I may be missing something, but US intel does not appear to have the tapes -- only knowledge of their existence. Russian intel wouldn't leak them -- better to have a compromised Trump as president than an old-fashioned Republican hawk like Pence.

 

[SparkleMotion]

On one hand you have a grassroots conspiracy theory about Hillary Clinton running a child sex ring out of a popular pizza parlour, based on paranoid interpretations of innocuous fragments of emails.

On the other hand you have a dossier from a reputable source, that the intelligence community finds extremely interesting, documenting a well-known narcissist being assisted and manipulated by a foreign power for mutual gain.

I dunno, guys. Both sides are equal, right?

Did you forget that Hillary had a private email server?

 

[Oriel]

The Guardian has a story on the provenance of this 35-page report.

The use of "Russian oligarchs living in the West" as sources doesn't fill me with confidence as to its ultimate veracity.

I'd still trust them over the the toxic poison emanating from the RT/Sputnik shitworks.

 

[Already Torn]

I know Trump just blows hot air out of his ass, but what was he attempting to say with the "Are we living in Nazi Germany" Tweet?

The way I imagine it is that Trump feels like he's clever for turning insults around almost directly regardless of context ("You're the puppet!"). So after being annoyed by enough Trump/Hitler comparisons, he goes for a "this is the real Nazi Germany stuff here folks" attack the first time he feels threatened.

 

[Whompa02]

Meanwhile, a fire at Watergate..

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...3th-Floor-of-Watergate-Complex-410422245.html

The coverup! :0

 

[jelly]

New article by John Schindler former NSA officer (@20committee)

http://observer.com/2017/01/donald-trump-press-conference-prague-michael-cohen/

Trump needs this issue to go away, and he can easily make that happen by releasing his tax returns and financial records for the last couple decades, thereby demonstrating that he has no dark Kremlin secrets. However, in his presser today, the president-elect stated that nobody but journalists care about his tax returns, which he reiterated he has no intention of releasing to the public.

This continued stalling is a grave mistake, and things will only get nastier as more of Trump’s secrets are leaked to the media. Having repeatedly warned the president-elect to avoid needless fights with our spies, since they know things, let me add that it only will get worse from here if Trump doesn’t come clean soon.

So, does that mean Trump is stupid, guilty of something but not necessarily the big things or he really is lying about very serious things?

 

[Dalek]

I may be missing something, but US intel does not appear to have the tapes -- only knowledge of their existence. Russian intel wouldn't leak them -- better to have a compromised Trump as president than an old-fashioned Republican hawk like Pence.

To our knowledge this is true. It would be great if that MI6 agent somehow got ahold of the tapes though.

 

[kevin1025]

Meanwhile, a fire at Watergate..

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...3th-Floor-of-Watergate-Complex-410422245.html

The building is having flashbacks and spontaneously combusted in confusion.

 

[D4Danger]

I'd still trust them over the the toxic poison emanating from the RT/Sputnik shitworks.

one and the same

 

[Oriel]

Did you forget that Hillary had a private email server?

Which, as we all know, is a bazillion times worse than Trump literally engaging in acts of treason.

 

[Trojita]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/t...jects-dossier-alleged-russia-dealings-n705586

Moscow tag removed from article?

lol wtf, they changed the authors too. I tried my original link just to make sure there wasn't any discrepancies.

 

[NoFaceNico]

Meanwhile, a fire at Watergate..

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...3th-Floor-of-Watergate-Complex-410422245.html

Coincidence? I THINK NOT!!!

 

[Taramoor]

In Putin's Russia they tape the leaks.

In USA they leak the tapes.

 

[Pyrokai]

All I want to know:

Will something come of this?

 

[Funky Papa]

But we're not talking about mathematical logic arguments, we're talking about politics. I'm sure there's cases where "whataboutism" is invalid, but if you look at (for example) the Israel/Palestine conflict, it's back-and-forth whataboutism going back centuries. it doesn't invalidate one side. It just explains why the conflict is what it is. If you just say "Hamas shot rockets into Tel Aviv, they're terrorists!", that's a pretty incomplete interpretation of the conflict.

We are talking about keeping the conversation on topic. "So what, America also did it!" is not conductive. It's a distraction.

The current scope of the debate is about Russia holding or not incriminatory evidence that could be used to blackmail Trump. It is not about comparing America's track record of international interference against Russia's. That may be related, but it's a different topic. Bringing it only muddles the conversation and we won't allow it. Anybody who wants to talk about that is free to create a new thread.

 

[Polari]

I'd still trust them over the the toxic poison emanating from the RT/Sputnik shitworks.

I wouldn't - these are guys with a serious axe to grind against Putin. They're all for disrupting US-Russian relations.

 

[TyrantII]

Aka how to make yourself look like a mastermind no matter the situation. Yea, I'm sure Russia wanted this to leak, and I'm sure they want their puppet to be impeached. Yep, all a part of their master plan.

Ehh. Russia is all about destabilization and causing others to commit forced errors. It's Bin Laden's strategy, only with a large international government behind it.

They're doing a great job right now pitting the different pillars and institutions in American democracy against each other. Not that things were healthy before due to Republicans acting in terrible faith, but they see the wound and they're poking at it.

 

[smokeymicpot]

Why not? If it buries his political career like it buried Hillarys it's a win. Though the situations aren't the same obvious.

I do too just rather faster then slower. Been a slow burn it seems like.

 

[Kyzer]

On one hand you have a grassroots conspiracy theory about Hillary Clinton running a child sex ring out of a popular pizza parlour, based on paranoid interpretations of innocuous fragments of emails.

On the other hand you have a dossier from a reputable source, that the intelligence community finds extremely interesting, documenting a well-known narcissist being assisted and manipulated by a foreign power for mutual gain.

I dunno, guys. Both sides are equal, right?

I never said they were equal, nor do they have to be to be comparable, and why can't both things be outrageous?

Also, as of now, the sources and accuracy of this dossier is unverified. All we know is trump was presented with some info, and that there were some unknown pieces the IC decided was worth investigating. And that some was totally bunk. We don't know what was what. We don't know shit yet. I hate Trump too guys. Let's not lose our ability to be discerning. If this was a story about Clinton and donations from a foreign entity we would be shutting it down to the lengths of completely lambasting the intelligence community before accepting it for having no evidence.

 

[Audioboxer]

We'll see. I mean I don't doubt it, but we heard this during pussygate about there being more audio out there that never got released.

And whatever that apprentice thing was about Trump being racist on tape.

I mean why all these constant claims about tapes around one of the most hated guys in the west but no one actually wants to put up so something can be done. Just constantly "sources say there are tapes of x".

 

[Boke1879]

Trump needs this issue to go away, and he can easily make that happen by releasing his tax returns and financial records for the last couple decades, thereby demonstrating that he has no dark Kremlin secrets. However, in his presser today, the president-elect stated that nobody but journalists care about his tax returns, which he reiterated he has no intention of releasing to the public.

This continued stalling is a grave mistake, and things will only get nastier as more of Trump’s secrets are leaked to the media. Having repeatedly warned the president-elect to avoid needless fights with our spies, since they know things, let me add that it only will get worse from here if Trump doesn’t come clean soon.

So, does that mean Trump is stupid, guilty of something but not necessarily the big things or he really is lying about very serious things?

Anyone know's I'm not a fan of Trump and I've said the same thing.

Release your fucking taxes. This is why you release them and your financials records for the last few decades. This is why you stay in contact with the ethics committee. Because if you have nothing to hide and you do what we just said. We most likely aren't talking about this issue right now.

 

[Negaduck]

Guys, I'm sorry if this doesn't help the thread at all, but I'm surprised I haven't seen a primal rage photoshop.


http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/f/fc/Chaos_golden_shower.gif

This has been so interesting to follow.

 

[B-Dubs]

All I want to know:

Will something come of this?

Depends on if someone can get their hands on one of the tapes. If one of those makes it's way onto the news then all hell will break loose. Same with solid proof of wrong doing.

 

[sugarhigh4242]

We are talking about keeping the conversation on topic. "So what, America also did it!" is not conductive. It's a distraction.

The current scope of the debate is about Russia holding or not incriminatory evidence that could be used to blackmail Trump. It is not about comparing America's track record of international interference against Russia's. That may be related, but it's a different topic. Bringing it only muddles the conversation and we won't allow it. Anybody who wants to talk about that is free to create a new thread.

I can get with that, but that is different from it being an invalid form of argument.

 

[brandonh83]

When Trump was elected, I found it unbelievable. A part of me felt like it was just a nightmare or something that wasn't going to actually come to fruition-- because how could a thinking nation elect someone like that for President?

Now that he's approaching office amidst all this and that absolutely, profoundly idiotic, immature, short-sighted, ill-informed and all the above conference, I'm starting to either feel anger or apathy toward my country. Or even both.

We're in a bad place right now.

 

[Boke1879]

And whatever that apprentice thing was about Trump being racist on tape.

I mean why all these constant claims about tapes around one of the most hated guys in the west but no one actually wants to put up so something can be done. Just constantly "sources say there are tapes of x".

Well the executive producer of that pretty much said he's not releasing those tapes and would sue anyone that did. Also he's a friend of Trump.