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[kaching]

Too much moaning.
The election is over.

And? The responsibilities of citizenship don't cease outside of elections.

You think there's too much moaning now? That's cute. Wait till Repubs repeal ACA with no functional replacement ready and 20 million or more lose their healthcare all at once. Wait until he's trying to kick millions of immigrants out of the country who are mostly trying to work towards legitimate citizenship. Wait until he tries to register every Muslim-American as a potential threat just because their Muslim. Wait until he destabilizes geopolitical relations across the globe, all for the sake of the flattery he gets from a dictator who hardly has his own peoples' best interests in mind, nevermind ours. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Did you say "too much moaning" when the rust belt whined and moaned about a way of life that's passed them by and can't really be restored, yet swayed the election anyway in their favor? A very small minority of the country, no more than 100K, who just happened to moan loud enough to Make America Great Again.

 

[Kyzer]

I would agree if it weren't for fact that Trump has said everything wrong about this. Let's say this report comes out about Hillary: do you think she would directly question and provoke the IC? Would she continue to talk about Russia in a positive light and speak of lifting sanctions and disbanding NATO?

He's never released his tax returns, has a history of bankruptcy, and he thinks it makes him smart.

These are the kinds of things that make this situation go far beyond a partisan reaction to the allegations.

Seriously, you're "both sides"-ing.

All of that is villanous, but it is impossible to connect those dots objectively without information that quite frankly we do not have. Only the IC knows if those dots are connected or not.

And before I even address your other point, notice that we are kinda funneled into a conversation about "both sides-ing" , I cannot respond to Hillarys hypothetical reaction VS Trumps without doing the thing you are accusing me of , but I will continue anyways. Obviously, their responses would be different. They are also very different people. The emails are an easy situation to point to. She did cast doubt on the IC several times, and many people pointed to the investigation as a reason to not support her, even though it was not confimation of anything. And no, I'm not both sides'ing. Not everything is both sides'ing. Im saying we are being hypocritical. Not that we are exactly the same as the republicans and that there is not difference.

 

[BowieZ]

Anyone mind if I make that fascism post in a new thread? I'm trying to come up with an appropriate but provoking title.

Trump is the Dawn of American Fascism?

 

[ClosingADoor]

To get this shit back on track, Russia basically needs those sanctions to get wiped out ASAP

Putin can lol at America all he wants, but they're broke

Even if they got rid of sanctions, they are in trouble until oil goes back up to $70-80+.

 

[Kyzer]

Because of everything that has happened so far even before this was released? Trump ties with Russia seem apparent way before this, and then a Report comes in from the same guy who helped with the FIFA scandal? Why would someone with such a reputation sell out for that?

We don't know. We don't even know which parts of the dossier were considered worth investigating. That is speculation, which is kinda my point. To speculate is one thing, to call for him to be put in jail or the inauguration to be stopped is another. I hate Trump too but you can't do the exact thing we were just shaming the right for doing.

Doesn't mean it's true but it needs to be properly investigated. This is coming from a source the IC has worked with prior, being investigated by multiple intelligence agencies across the world, and enough circumstantial evidence to put people on edge.

The bullshit false equivalency to "dying Hillary" or Pizzagate where no one with any credibility would lend an ear to it needs to stop.

Thats fine, but you have to acknowledge that not every single possible comparison to dying hillary or pizzagate is automatically false, just because theyre totally different situations, and that dismissing arguments wholesale for including a comparison is bullshit too.

Even without the leaked notes, there are plenty of other reasons why Trump should not become president.

Also if Hillary had the same pattern of awful behaviour and troubling links to Russia, I am sure we would be having the same discussion about her.

Hillary had a lot of alleged "awful behavior" and "troubling links". We didn't fall for it, others did, because they hated her and connected dots to see it as true to rationalize it.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

The system was designed to make someone like Jeb or Romney a winner - when the crazies band together and vote angrily, they'd still only be voting for someone who is stable , skilled, and understands the way the world works.
It didn't work this time. This is why people are scared.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

For you guys concern trolling us right now. I can guarantee you that the reactions on here wouldn't be the same if Jeb or someone like Mittens had won.

I actually voted Romney back in the GOP primaries in 2012 when I was registered as a Republican. I picked Obama over him during the general and became a democrat, but if you would have given me Romney as the Republican choice in 2016 and he won, I wouldn't actually mind at all.

Anyone mind if I make that fascism post in a new thread? I'm trying to come up with an appropriate but provoking title.

Trump is the Dawn of American Fascism?

I'm for it, we can't normalize him just because he won and is president. It disturbs me how many think Trump being a fascist is hyperbole even though all signs show that he is. I think we need a reminder.

 

[rjinaz]

All of that is villanous, but it is impossible to connect those dots objectively without information that quite frankly we do not have. Only the IC knows if those dots are connected or not.

And before I even address your other point, notice that we are kinda funneled into a conversation about "both sides-ing" , I cannot respond to Hillarys hypothetical reaction VS Trumps without doing the thing you are accusing me of , but I will continue anyways. Obviously, their responses would be different. They are also very different people. The emails are an easy situation to point to. She did cast doubt on the IC several times, and many people pointed to the investigation as a reason to not support her, even though it was not confimation of anything. And no, I'm not both sides'ing. Not everything is both sides'ing. Im saying we are being hypocritical. Not that we are exactly the same as the republicans and that there is not difference.

Uh you started this whole "both sides" part of the conversation with this post:

I kinda agree... its like this. I thought this board, speaking in generalities of course, was very discerning and logical, and thats why there were so many nuances to supporting Hillary Clinton and debunking all the myths and fake news about her propagated by the other end of the political spectrum. I suspect if this report were some sort of scandalous equivalent about her, we would be much more rational and skeptical, probably going so far as to question the motives of the intelligence community (emails) before accepting unsubstantiated claims that would rock american history for decades. Meanwhile, when its about Trump, people are already connecting dots between his affection for Russia and this dossier as if its solid evidence because of confirmation bias (we hate Trump, other than that there is no reason other than speculation to believe the explosive allegations in this dossier are actually true), and rationalizing putting him in jail, impeaching, and stopping the inauguration. Even though one of the only things we know is that we don't know what pieces of these claims were deemed worth investigating, much less if ANY of it is true. The willingness to believe these shocking, explosive accusations about Trump is absolutely unfounded, even if you hate him, because its so damn out there it DEMANDS evidence. And no, sorry, Trumps obvious connections to Russia do not objectively support this level of treason. We should be down-to-earth and analytical, not impulsively reactionary.... The same way it would be for Hillary. Its just kinda disappointing that I thought we were this huge group of thinkers and realists, but it turns out when its about a republican we don't apply the same approach. Anyways, im sure someone will argue against this post pretty well, and it will turn out to be someone who I probably agree with on 99-100% of issues, but alas those people are not the ones Im talking about

 

[Kai Dracon]

It is bad form to act like Mr. Gotcha in political discussions.

 

[Kyzer]

Uh you started this whole "both sides" part of the conversation with this post:

So any and all comparisons between Democrats and Republicans are automatically false and "both sides" ing. Ok. Just understand thats a quick way to shut down a conversation

Is someone being Mr.Gotcha again?

Is there a hole in my argument or is it automatically over if I point out something that happens to be hypocritical? Are you arguing that we should treat this report as true?

 

[YourMaster]

The system was designed to make someone like Jeb or Romney a winner - when the crazies band together and vote angrily, they'd still only be voting for someone who is stable , skilled, and understands the way the world works.
It didn't work this time. This is why people are scared.

To be fair, the system was designed by a bunch of lunatics and it is hard to say anything positive about it. If it sometimes gives you some sort of effective government that benefits the people it's mostly luck.

 

[KingK]

How does them being different mean we lose our ability to be discerning and skeptical? As we VERY well know, something being investigated by the IC does not mean it is true.

Some healthy skepticism is good. There is no smoking gun yet (that the pubic is aware of). That said, even before the memos, the circumstantial evidence of this is absolutely overwhelming and it needs to be taken seriously. And his comments/stances on our closest alliances and foreign policy would be setting off a ton of alarm bells independent of these accusations. Whether the accusations are true or not doesn't change the fact that for whatever reason, he's acting exclusively in the interests of Russian foreign policy at the expense of American and European security.

Yes, some people need to temper their expectations and have some patience, but this is not normal, and definitely not a time for "both sides" bullshit.

 

[rjinaz]

So any and all comparisons between Democrats and Republicans are automatically false and "both sides" ing. Ok. Just understand thats a quick way to shut down a conversation

No. It just seemed odd that you were calling out how the conversation had tunneled to "both sides" and how you can't argue hypotheticals when you were the one that started it. You realize this yes?

 

[Kyzer]

Some healthy skepticism is good. There is no smoking gun yet (that the pubic is aware of). That said, even before the memos, the circumstantial evidence of this is absolutely overwhelming and it needs to be taken seriously. And his comments/stances on our closest alliances and foreign policy would be setting off a ton of alarm bells independent of these accusations. Whether the accusations are true or not doesn't change the fact that for whatever reason, he's acting exclusively in the interests of Russian foreign policy at the expense of American and European security.

Yes, some people need to temper their expectations and have some patience, but this is not normal, and definitely not a time for "both sides" bullshit.

Yep, I agree with you. It should be taken seriously, and is by the IC. AND NOT EVERYTHING IS "BOTH SIDES BULLSHIT". Some people ARE being crazy because they hate Trump.

No. It just seemed odd that you were calling out how the conversation had tunneled to "both sides" and how you can't argue hypotheticals when you were the one that started it. You realize this yes?

I don't view saying what I said to actually be "both sides - ing", and I thought it felt like I was being cornered by you saying that and then asking me about Trumps reaction VS Hillary's. Both sides being the same or different is not my point, I just happened to reference a hypocrisy, which isn't the same as saying both sides are the same. My point is that people need to be logical and skeptical, and not let their emotions get the best of them, and while NO, BOTH SIDES ARE NOT THE SAME, that doesn't mean there aren't people being irrational on both sides.

 

[tedrotheredro]

All of that is villanous, but it is impossible to connect those dots objectively without information that quite frankly we do not have. Only the IC knows if those dots are connected or not.

And before I even address your other point, notice that we are kinda funneled into a conversation about "both sides-ing" , I cannot respond to Hillarys hypothetical reaction VS Trumps without doing the thing you are accusing me of , but I will continue anyways. Obviously, their responses would be different. They are also very different people. The emails are an easy situation to point to. She did cast doubt on the IC several times, and many people pointed to the investigation as a reason to not support her, even though it was not confimation of anything. And no, I'm not both sides'ing. Not everything is both sides'ing. Im saying we are being hypocritical. Not that we are exactly the same as the republicans and that there is not difference.

There are dots all over the place, so connecting them isn't that great of a leap or unknowable. The sources we've used for dots have all been legit news sources that haven't retracted stories. If Trump gets into office and starts dumping IC resources left and right, it may be up to us and the press to find the truth and connect the dots.

I believe Clinton's response to the FBI letter was very tepid. It didn't question the validity of the post. She merely said the timing was suspect, and when the investigation is completed nothing new will be found....and both of those statements were 100% true given the investigation into Comeys timing and the emails not turning up anything new.

Compare that to Trumps response: calls the IC nazis, says the CIA director was probably the leaker, lies about even getting the report....do you see where I'm going with the "both sides" thing?

 

[Caja 117]

We don't know. We don't even know which parts of the dossier were considered worth investigating. That is speculation, which is kinda my point. To speculate is one thing, to call for him to be put in jail or the inauguration to be stopped is another. I hate Trump too but you can't do the exact thing we were just shaming the right for doing.

Yes it is speculation on things that are too many coincidence at once, and No, if all of this is some weird coincidence, he deserves to be President as he was elected to do so. My belief is that he has connection, willingly or unwillingly, but there is a connection, however, given the nature of the evidence I dont think the people who are in charge on deciding his culpability are going to find him guilty of wrongdoing.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Is there a hole in my argument or is it automatically over if I point out something that happens to be hypocritical? Are you arguing that we should treat this report as true?

Not singling you out; there's a greater trend of concern trolling going on quite often in these threads.

 

[SuperEpicMan]

All of that is villanous, but it is impossible to connect those dots objectively without information that quite frankly we do not have. Only the IC knows if those dots are connected or not.

There is an increasing amount of evidence that suggests Trump has been working with the Russians for a long time.

https://twitter.com/Khanoisseur/status/819950190794706944

Also.

Hillary had a lot of alleged "awful behavior" and "troubling links". We didn't fall for it, others did, because they hated her and connected dots to see it as true to rationalize it.

If you have some links detailing evidence of her awfulness, feel free to post them.

 

[Morts]

I was hoping the leaks would keep coming but this all seems to have stopped snowballing.

 

[Gutek]

Some people ARE being crazy because they hate Trump.

And that's where you are wrong. Trump is the crazy one.

 

[Kyzer]

There are dots all over the place, so connecting them isn't that great of a leap or unknowable. The sources we've used for dots have all been legit news sources that haven't retracted stories. If Trump gets into office and starts dumping IC resources left and right, it may be up to us and the press to find the truth and connect the dots.

I believe Clinton's response to the FBI letter was very tepid. It didn't question the validity of the post. She merely said the timing was suspect, and when the investigation is completed nothing new will be found....and both of those statements were 100% true given the investigation into Comeys timing and the emails not turning up anything new.

Compare that to Trumps response: calls the IC nazis, says the CIA director was probably the leaker, lies about even getting the report....do you see where I'm going with the "both sides" thing?

ok but im not making the argument that both sides are the same. im making the argument that people are letting their political bias drive their outlook of this report, as opposed to logic and reason. these are serious allegations, they are being taken seriously by the intelligence communities, and some parts investigated. we will see.

Yes it is speculation on things that are too many coincidence at once, and No, if all of this is some weird coincidence, he deserves to be President as he was elected to do so. My belief is that he has connection, willingly or unwillingly, but there is one, but given the nature of the evidence I dont think the people who are in charge on deciding his culpability are going to find him guilty of wrongdoing.

I guess we'll see, who knows

And that's where you are wrong. Trump is the crazy one.

you can both be crazy. lol

There is an increasing amount of evidence that suggests Trump has been working with the Russians for a long time.

https://twitter.com/Khanoisseur/status/819950190794706944

Also.



If you have some links detailing evidence of her awfulness, feel free to post them.

Unless you are part of the FBI or CIA, I really doubt you can objectively connect those dots between his links and this dossier, not legally. It requires info we do not have. It might be true, we don't know.

And im not sure if you actually read what you just quoted, but no I cant post any links about Hillary's awful behavior, because shes a fuckin boss who's been fighting for racial equality, children, and families her whole life. I didn't believe any unsubstantiated allegations that were deemed worth investigating by the IC

 

[kaching]

I suspect if this report were some sort of scandalous equivalent about her, we would be much more rational and skeptical, probably going so far as to question the motives of the intelligence community (emails) before accepting unsubstantiated claims that would rock american history for decades.

Uhh, you do know this report has been around for months now, right? It's been treated VERY rationally and skeptically. This report didn't come from our intel community in the first place, so there's no reason to "question their motives". The press, the intel community, GAF, EVERYONE has held it at arms length while Trump ironically gave it more and more credence through his refusal to acknowledge Russia's responsibilty in influencing our election and remaining uncharacteristically buddy-buddy with Putin, for an American leader.

And let's not act like American History isn't about to be rocked for decades, either way this goes. Whether this report proves to offer impeachable evidence or whether Trump goes on to serve at least one term in full, this country is well and truly "rocked".

But, yeah, let's not just accept unsubstantiated claims, such as the ones made almost constantly by the man this country just elected its next president...

 

[Caja 117]

ok but im not making the argument that both sides are the same. im making the argument that people are letting their political bias drive their outlook of this report, as opposed to logic and reason. these are serious allegations, they are being taken seriously by the intelligence communities, and some parts investigated. we will see.



I guess we'll see, who knows

I think is a longshot, the main problem here, is that we are talking about taking the power away from the president that was elected by the rules of this country, the IC needs to have evidence that is good enough to convince everyone outside those crazy Trump fanatics, because anything less that could have the people in doubt will only be perceived as something that Trump will end up calling "The system is rigged against Washington outsiders".

 

[radios shipping overview]

I was disappointed that the SNL cold open didn't tackle the most chilling part of the press conference, the "fake news" accusation. Yes, they covered that later in Weekend Update, but I think that moment was where Trump tipped his hand about his authoritarian tendencies most obviously.

But I'm glad shirtless Putin showed up.

 

[Kyzer]

Uhh, you do know this report has been around for months now, right? It's been treated VERY rationally and skeptically. This report didn't come from our intel community in the first place, so there's no reason to "question their motives". The press, the intel community, GAF, EVERYONE has held it at arms length while Trump ironically gave it more and more credence through his refusal to acknowledge Russia's responsibilty in influencing our election and remaining uncharacteristically buddy-buddy with Putin, for an American leader.

And let's not act like American History isn't about to be rocked for decades, either way this goes. Whether this report proves to offer impeachable evidence or whether Trump goes on to serve at least one term in full, this country is well and truly "rocked".

But, yeah, let's not just accept unsubstantiated claims, such as the ones made almost constantly by the man this country just elected its next president...

Right, thats my point. As it stands, its an unsubstantiated report that is being taken seriously and some parts deemed worth investigating. We don't know jack. If you're holding it at arms length, then you're not who Im talking about when I say people are being irrational, are you?

And I disagree, this would be 10x bigger than watergate.

I think is a longshot, the main problem here, is that we are talking about taking the power away from the president that was elected by the rules of this country, the IC needs to have evidence that is good enough to convince everyone outside those crazy Trump fanatics, because anything less that could be just put into public doubt can only be perceived as, what Trump will end up calling "The system is rigged against Washington outsiders".

and unfortunately, I dont think theres much we could do about that. evidence is a pretty important part of being found guilty of something in the USA, and honestly I dont think it should be any other way. anything less than the evidence you are describing would be problematic indeed.

 

[UberTag]

I don't think he can do that. At least, not easily. Remember that Hillary wasn't exactly liked by everybody before she became Trump's main opponent.

The EMAILS fiasco felt so believable for people because with the baggage she already had, it felt like something she could very much have been responsible for. Trump pretty much just took advantage of that.

If the next Dem rival is somebody super popular without any of that crap going in, I don't think any amount of fake news could slow him/her down.

Gotcha. The Dems are getting Dwayne Johnson on the phone as we speak. That'll show those pesky Republicans who's boss.

 

[KingK]

Yep, I agree with you. It should be taken seriously, and is by the IC. AND NOT EVERYTHING IS "BOTH SIDES BULLSHIT". Some people ARE being crazy because they hate Trump.



I don't view saying what I said to actually be "both sides - ing", and I thought it felt like I was being cornered by you saying that and then asking me about Trumps reaction VS Hillary's. Both sides being the same or different is not my point, I just happened to reference a hypocrisy, which isn't the same as saying both sides are the same. My point is that people need to be logical and skeptical, and not let their emotions get the best of them, and while NO, BOTH SIDES ARE NOT THE SAME, that doesn't mean there aren't people being irrational on both sides.

I realize that "both sides" gets thrown around erroneously a lot. As someone who never liked Hillary and was quite critical of her and the DNC during the election, I know where you're coming from.

But equating the people freaking out (even being hyperbolic and impatient) about the very real possibility that the PEOTUS is a Russian agent attempting to weaken and dismantle the post-WW2 world order, to the people who freaked out over pizza-gate, to me seems like exactly the kind of false equivalency that "both sides" implies. Even if some of the more extreme reactions are similar, the information those reactions are based on could not be less equal.

 

[Kyzer]

I realize that "both sides" gets thrown around erroneously a lot. As someone who never liked Hillary and was quite critical of her and the DNC during the election, I know where you're coming from.

But equating the people freaking out (even being hyperbolic and impatient) about the very real possibility that the PEOTUS is a Russian agent attempting to weaken and dismantle the post-WW2 world order, to the people who freaked out over pizza-gate, to be seems like exactly the kind of false equivalency that "both sides" implies. Even if some of the more extreme reactions are similar, the information those reactions are based on could not be less equal.

Yeah definitely. I agree they're in totally different realms, and don't mean to equate them exactly.

 

[SuperEpicMan]

Unless you are part of the FBI or CIA, I really doubt you can objectively connect those dots between his links and this dossier, not legally. It requires info we do not have. It might be true, we don't know.

Maybe, but I am not looking for information to arrest him myself. It is enough however give me a strong impression the dossier is true (for the most part).

And im not sure if you actually read what you just quoted, but no I cant post any links about Hillary's awful behavior, because shes a fuckin boss who's been fighting for racial equality, children, and families her whole life. I didn't believe any unsubstantiated allegations that were deemed worth investigating by the IC

That particular post just illustrates the connections he has with Russia. If you look through Adam Khan's timeline there is a lot of sourced information which goes into detail on his relationship with Russia.

 

[Caja 117]

THIS!!!
I would never vote Trump in a million years but that doesn't mean my hatred for what he stands for is so debilitating that i lose all sense of critical thinking.

Just look at the way people swallowed that Buzz feed leak without any critique. The same people would then deride people that believe the recent Pizzagate rubbish. (2 sides...)

The people up in arms about Russian influence are not so up in arms about AIPAC influence.
Same with Wikileaks, it was ok when they leaked damaging info about the victims Bush's war on terror but all of a sudden Wikileaks is bad because of the podesta leak.

People didn't swallow Pizzzagate because it was a crazy theory based on an email content, Buzzfeed leaked a Document from a different source, just like Wikileaks does.

People are Hating Wikileaks not because they release the podesta Email, is because its clear cut they are just working as a Russian propaganda tool, before people didnt knew this. I really don't care, because I always hated wikileaks.

ugh, I got confused on who I was repliying to, your nick and the other poster nick are basically pronounced in the same way

 

[Kyzer]

Maybe, but I am not looking for information to arrest him myself. It is enough however give me a strong impression the dossier is true (for the most part).



That particular post just illustrates the connections he has with Russia. If you look through Adam Khan's timeline there is a lot of sourced information which goes into detail on his relationship with Russia.

Gotcha. Like I said, I agree with everyone in here on probably every issue, but I guess Im just much more skeptical that this will all pan out to be true in any meaningful way. I'm honestly also worried about blowback of this all being false making Trump look better and feeding his narrative of a liberal media agenda

THIS!!!
I would never vote Trump in a million years but that doesn't mean my hatred for what he stands for is so debilitating that i lose all sense of critical thinking.

Just look at the way people swallowed that Buzz feed leak without any critique. The same people would then deride people that believe the recent Pizzagate rubbish. (2 sides...)

The people up in arms about Russian influence are not so up in arms about AIPAC influence.
Same with Wikileaks, it was ok when they leaked damaging info about the victims Bush's war on terror but all of a sudden Wikileaks is bad because of the podesta leak.

Well, idk about all that, wikileaks slowly revealed themselves to be evil so that makes sense. And its ok to be up in arms about Russian influence, fuck Russia. We just gotta be skeptical and rational. Especially in an environment when we KNOW Russia is performing disinformation campaigns within US media. This whole thing could also turn out to be something they cooked up.

We gotta be unfuckwittable.

 

[Gutek]

Gotcha. Like I said, I agree with everyone in here on probably every issue, but I guess Im just much more skeptical that this will all pan out to be true in any meaningful way. I'm honestly also worried about blowback of this all being false making Trump look better and feeding his narrative of a liberal media agenda



Well, idk about all that, wikileaks slowly revealed themselves to be evil so that makes sense. And its ok to be up in arms about Russian influence, fuck Russia. We just gotta be skeptical and rational. Especially in an environment when we KNOW Russia is performing disinformation campaigns within US media. This whole thing could also turn out to be something they cooked up.

Why? Right wing media can say whatever the fuck they like. Muslims, Hillary is dying, body doubles, birth certificate, AIDS, child prostitution, etc.

Why worry? They will never believe the "MSM". And they get away with much worse.

 

[always crazy bacon]

Two Questions:

• Did you participate the system you are now calling archaic? If so, did you read the small print? (your vote is your signature on the dotted line..IMHO!)
• Would you have complained if the results of the count were reversed and favoured Hillary?

You are aware that many international GAF members outside of the US election system can see the danger of Trump as a president? Yet his actions have an effect on many of our lives. If you think this is a Trump won / Hillary lost issue you're not keeping up with current events.

 

[SuperEpicMan]

Gotcha. Like I said, I agree with everyone in here on probably every issue, but I guess Im just much more skeptical that this will all pan out to be true in any meaningful way. I'm honestly also worried about blowback of this all being false making Trump look better and feeding his narrative of a liberal media agenda



Well, idk about all that, wikileaks slowly revealed themselves to be evil so that makes sense. And its ok to be up in arms about Russian influence, fuck Russia. We just gotta be skeptical and rational. Especially in an environment when we KNOW Russia is performing disinformation campaigns within US media. This whole thing could also turn out to be something they cooked up.

We gotta be unfuckwittable.

I 100% believe Trump has a relationship with Russia (as previously mentioned there is an abundance of information which strongly suggests this), however it is more of a case of proving it.

 

[Xtyle]

Real talk.
I don't understand why politicians, and those dems especially, say that Trump's presidency is legitimate. He may have won using the voting system but he also cheated even if he was never involved with Russia he still constantly urged them to help and used wikileak any chance he could - that to me is the definition of cheating. He's not fucking legitimate. They need to have some balls and come out and say it like it is instead of this playing nice guy bullshit which never ever helps. You don't put out fire by throwing oil at it.

 

[Xtyle]

I 100% believe Trump has a relationship with Russia (as previously mentioned there is an abundance of information which strongly suggests this), however it is more of a case of proving it.

They need to get his tax return. That shit has to have dirt or he would have released it.

 

[Kyzer]

Why? Right wing media can say whatever the fuck they like. Muslims, Hillary is dying, body doubles, birth certificate, AIDS, child prostitution, etc.

Why worry? They will never believe the "MSM". And they get away with much worse.

because

1) we're not republicans, plus statistically speaking democrats are better educated so it wont just go unnoticed, it would cause more damage to the party and its reputation
2) them doing something and getting away with it doesnt mean we should do it, i mean think about the morality of what you're arguing for
3) the country is not actually just "us" and "them", there are huge swathes of people who are swayed every day by information and propaganda from both sides

 

[Isaac Otherworld]

Do you understand the concept of democracy?

The election process has spoken.

Just a reminder of who this person is since they're actually daring to show their face here again:

Which reminds me! I couldn't do this before because I was at work.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=226694453&postcount=68
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=224400396&postcount=90
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=224401563&postcount=95
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=228089444&postcount=6765
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=227935225&postcount=182
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=227830489&postcount=201
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=227413981&postcount=334
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=227398429&postcount=614
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=227398021&postcount=78
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=227397883&postcount=32
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=227179474&postcount=130
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=227830489&postcount=201

A personal favorite of mine:

I swear, Americans have been so brainwashed by the media.

What is wrong with Trump receiving a beautiful letter from Putin?
Putin is a very smart man who will never dream of attacking the USA knowing the consequences. so I don't understand fear mongering.

Had Hilary won, many on here wouldn't have been appalled if she received a beautiful letter from the Saudis (co-funded her campaign even though she believed that they were also funding Islamic jihadis too).

An open channel between the leaders of the two biggest nuclear powers is a good thing as far as I am concerned.

 

[Gutek]

Just a reminder of who this person is since they're actually daring to show their face here again:

Ugh. Why did I even bother.

 

[BronsonLee]

There's a reason I say can it nerd to people

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

I 100% believe Trump has a relationship with Russia (as previously mentioned there is an abundance of information which strongly suggests this), however it is more of a case of proving it.

This is the dude who's campaign manager resigned over ties with Putin and anti-American protests. Same dude is back on the transition team. I think it is unquestionable that he is working for Russian interests, not American.

 

[BowieZ]

Oh well, looks like my thread got locked because of the plethora of Trump threads. Not sure that that's warranted but at least I can say I tried.

Meanwhile, compelling opinion article about Trump's flagrant lying ("gaslighting") tactic.

 

[Forgotten_Taco]

Just a reminder of who this person is since they're actually daring to show their face here again:

I eagerly await his response...

 

[Xtyle]

Would Obama technically enact Martial Law? What are the ramifications behind enacting that? Wouldn't that save us from Trump? Would that cause chaos? At this point it seems like anything is better than Trump and I say that not just for America's benefits but other people's as well.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

THIS!!!
I would never vote Trump in a million years but that doesn't mean my hatred for what he stands for is so debilitating that i lose all sense of critical thinking.

Just look at the way people swallowed that Buzz feed leak without any critique. The same people would then deride people that believe the recent Pizzagate rubbish. (2 sides...)

The people up in arms about Russian influence are not so up in arms about AIPAC influence.
Same with Wikileaks, it was ok when they leaked damaging info about the victims Bush's war on terror but all of a sudden Wikileaks is bad because of the podesta leak.

This is exactly the false equivalency problem that has protected trump this far. Pizzagate and the Russia Dossier are completely different categories for so many reasons, yet people make comparisons any how. The remarkable thing is that the election is over and people are still doing it. People would still attack Hillary,Obama and the DNC rather than look at Trump for who he is. People would rather critique how liberals react to this news rather than strongly consider the news itself on its own merits and in context of everything else we already know about trump.

Liberals have human flaws for sure and will behave in not always the most rational way, but choosing to make that the discussion point rather than the news itself is exactly the fallacy that Fox News does on a daily basis on subjects like BLM. They don't want to speak on the heart of the issue, they attack easy targets on the periphery.

 

[UberTag]

We don't know. We don't even know which parts of the dossier were considered worth investigating. That is speculation, which is kinda my point. To speculate is one thing, to call for him to be put in jail or the inauguration to be stopped is another. I hate Trump too but you can't do the exact thing we were just shaming the right for doing.

I think you'd have more people advocating patience to let the investigation process bear out if we didn't have evidence that the FBI was compromised months ago and actively SAT on this information during the election process for political reasons while trumping up baseless accusations against Trump's opponent.

And if we didn't have the director of the CIA getting replaced by "a Rapture-believing evangelical who sees 'radical Islam' at work in small-town America" in 4 days while his predecessor gets kicked to the curb by the president-elect and denigrated for having spearheaded the leak of "fake news".

And if we didn't have Trump vowing to destroy the free press by passing libel laws so he can sue anyone who says a negative thing about him while barring them from the White House.

I think you can understand where normally rational people who feel just a little agitated and anxious about playing the "wait and see" card. After all, with the domestic intelligence community effectively shuttered, what's to stop Trump from making the case to ignore any factual findings that the international intelligence community brings forward about his ties to Russia? He'll simply call his critics hypocrites for advocating to have his election overturned on nothing but the say-so of the international community and label them all as traitors of the United States of America.

 

[kaching]

Right, thats my point. As it stands, its an unsubstantiated report that is being taken seriously and some parts deemed worth investigating. We don't know jack. If you're holding it at arms length, then you're not who Im talking about when I say people are being irrational, are you?

Then who are you actually accusing of being irrational here? In order to substantiate the report, it has to at least be taken somewhat seriously, that's how investigation works. This board is following the signals given by the press and the intel community as they continue to investigate. This report existed since well before the election. You can hardly call people here irrational when no one expected the report to stop him from being elected, not in its unsubstantiated form. It's not the doing of this board that the report has been brought into focus again, that's due to effort in the meantime to substantiate the report and because of questions that continue to be raised by the overly accommodating relationship between Trump/Putin that goes beyond mere admiration.

And I disagree, this would be 10x bigger than watergate.

For someone who seems so bothered by the impact of unsubstantiated claims, you're rather cavalier about the impact of all the unsubstantiated claims Trump has made and will continue to make and how those will impact foreign and domestic policy for at least the next 4 years.

 

[SuperEpicMan]

This is the dude who's campaign manager resigned over ties with Putin and anti-American protests. Same dude is back on the transition team. I think it is unquestionable that he is working for Russian interests, not American.

Exactly the amount of information that connects Trump to Russia is staggering, and I can only imagine the IC will have access to more. So with that, I kinda have to believe they will either provide the necessary evidence for impeachment, or arrest him before Friday. I refuse to believe the current administration could simply turn over the presidency to someone who is in Putin's pocket.

 

[Xtyle]

Exactly the amount of information that connects Trump to Russia is staggering, and I can only imagine the IC will have access to more. So with that, I kinda have to believe they will either provide the necessary evidence for impeachment, or arrest him before Friday. I refuse to believe the current administration could simply turn over the presidency to someone who is in Putin's pocket.

We all wish but all hints point to them not doing anything to stop inauguration...you can feel it in their interview responses. They way they talk about the Inauguration happening and how he should behave in office.

 

[Kyzer]

Then who are you actually accusing of being irrational here? In order to substantiate the report, it has to at least be taken somewhat seriously, that's how investigation works. This board is following the signals given by the press and the intel community as they continue to investigate. This report existed since well before the election. You can hardly call people here irrational when no one expected the report to stop him from being elected, not in its unsubstantiated form. It's not the doing of this board that the report has been brought into focus again, that's due to effort in the meantime to substantiate the report and because of questions that continue to be raised by the overly accommodating relationship between Trump/Putin that goes beyond mere admiration.

For someone who seems so bothered by the impact of unsubstantiated claims, you're rather cavalier about the impact of all the unsubstantiated claims Trump has made and will continue to make and how those will impact foreign and domestic policy for at least the next 4 years.

You're not really following my argument but I'll bite anyways. You want me to list peoples names? Theyre in here, read the thread. They most certainly want the report to stop him from being elected, and are outraged that it isn't. Either way, I don't disagree with anything you're saying but happen to disagree with how explosive it would be. Call me crazy but somehow I think Russia and Trump illegally obtaining and exchanging information with each other and them grooming him for 8+ years and blackmailing him with sex tapes of golden showers on the Obamas beds and working in secret to destroy NATO and brush the Ukraine incident under the rug and become President of the USA is pretty impactful, maybe im naive...