That's just not true at all. Animal Crossing. Super Mario Galaxy 2. Brain Age 2. English Training 2 and several others have been literally just that. By your argument, the smallest new option or mode can be considered a new idea for the series. Miyamoto's rambles about F-Zero just don't make sense. Bottom line is the game doesn't make as much money to the current Nintendo user base.
Retro Studios working on fucking Donkey Kong
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That's just not true at all. Animal Crossing. Super Mario Galaxy 2. Brain Age 2. English Training 2 and several others have been literally just that. By your argument, the smallest new option or mode can be considered a new idea for the series. Miyamoto's rambles about F-Zero just don't make sense. Bottom line is the game doesn't make as much money to the current Nintendo user base.
DashReindeer
Lead Community Manager, Outpost Games
Every time I read the thread title, I can't help but think to myself, "Wait, Retro Studios is working on doing what to Donkey Kong?"
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Nintendo is full of crap if they truly have that mentality.
evilromero
Member
Only a few leads left since the last Prime game from what I recall. I could be wrong. But I know that not ALL of the development team left after Prime 1. That is just shit someone pulled out of their ass.
w1gglyjones
Member
I'm not sure you understand my point. DKC and this new Mario game are the most mainstream that they can get this holiday season.
People talking about Xenowhateves is not the audience that I'm talking about in my post. It's the exact opposite audience. It makes sense to try to attract a larger, mainstream, casual audience and use them to get word of mouth going. It's clear they don't have a "Wii Sports" type game to do it. They don't have any other ideas. Showing off a gamer for "us" is not that audience, either.
moltonasty
Member
I definitely don't think Retro is incapable of making a Metroid game, just that DK may be better suited for them right now. I thought that all of the lead designers who were at Retro during MP1 are gone, right? With so much turnover at Retro, I'm pretty sure the team has a very different dynamic in 2013 than they did in 2001, or whatever year they started work on Prime. The reason you should care that DKCR sold more than Prime, is because Wii U is in a tough spot, and Nintendo needs to make sure their games sell a lot, and soon. If DK has consistently shown that it sells more than Metroid, then it's in Nintendo's best interest to make a new DK, at this time.
BTW, I would have been way WAY happier if they made a new Metroid. But I understand why they didn't, just yet.
w1gglyjones
Member
As others have mentioned, it's not true. Adding to the above examples already given, Wii Fit+ did make Wii Fit obsolete.
Just remake F-Zero GX and put an online mode in. Call it F-Zero GXU or whatever. Done.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Well, expectation were high. And DKC just didn't meet those expectation.
Hence the initial disappointment.
That doesn't mean that DKC isn't cool, its just not what people were expecting.
I have no problem with them releasing DKCR2. I just would have preferred more non-platforming games come out this holiday to diversify their lineup. Retro would have been perfect for this since it's been three years (?) since DKCR came out. I would not have cared as much if this was their second Wii U title.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I don't really think this is the sort of game that's going to attract the "Wii Sports/Fit" audience. It will attract Nintendo fans first and foremost, and beyond that it's a good family friendly title that will probably make a good addition to a family's library once a game shows up to sell them on the system. This isn't that game though.
People keep saying this, but as someone who wants a new F-Zero that would be even more disappointing to me than not getting an F-Zero game at all. I'd feel straight up trolled, because I already have GX and a Cube to play it on. Online alone wouldn't be enough to sell it to me, I want actual new content (mainly tracks, some modes could be nice too though).
The MP3 director, senior designers, art director, as well as many others have left. This also means that none of the DKCR senior designers are left either. However, the art and animation teams still have quite a few people who worked on MP3 (which isn't that meaningful for the actual game design?).
too strong is an understatement since this is what makes up 90 percent of the thread.
RawkHawk2010
Member
I want to know how "cheap and easy" people really think Tropical Freeze is to make.
Because if it took three years using almost all of Retro's staff (And no, this isn't a "side project" being developed by ~30 dudes with Metroid Prime 4 going on in the background.) and yet it still looks like something Retro did because it was "the easiest thing to do", then do you really think Retro could have done some new mind-blowing open-world adventure not springboarding off an established formula in approximately the same amount of time?
You're either disappointed because Retro Studios isn't what two-and-a-half years of wild imagination led you to believe or you're simply not a fan of the series they're working on. But it's not a conscious "misuse of talent."
(Stop being silly, plebeians.)
Because if it took three years using almost all of Retro's staff (And no, this isn't a "side project" being developed by ~30 dudes with Metroid Prime 4 going on in the background.) and yet it still looks like something Retro did because it was "the easiest thing to do", then do you really think Retro could have done some new mind-blowing open-world adventure not springboarding off an established formula in approximately the same amount of time?
You're either disappointed because Retro Studios isn't what two-and-a-half years of wild imagination led you to believe or you're simply not a fan of the series they're working on. But it's not a conscious "misuse of talent."
(Stop being silly, plebeians.)
w1gglyjones
Member
This is coming from left field.
What I've said in the last 2 or 3 points is that maybe it's better for Nintendo to show up this holiday with more mainstream titles like DKC and this new Mario game to get word of mouth started in that audience rather than the smaller/core audience that a Metroid game or another new/revived IP or "fresh" idea would kick off.
That this year, word of mouth from a larger, mainstream audience is more important than a smaller, core audience. And their lineup reflects the kind of audience they want this holiday.
Who's claiming it was easy? If I recall correctly, on the page prior to this one, the one's who are claiming it was easier and cheaper for them were supporters of this game.
What I don't get is that Nintendo is targetting all of its projects pretty much at the same group. Are the people who buy NSMB much different from those who buy DKCR? Some variety would have helped here.
Nonetheless, 2D games are much cheaper and quicker to produce. If Retro already needed 3 years for a sequel to DKCR which does not even set the system's graphical capabilities on fire, who knows whether they could have even done a 3D project with reasonable resources?
I think there's an element of truth to this for some of Nintendo's studios. Take Aonuma and Zelda, where he seems to feel the need for some new gameplay/item/controller twist to drive the game's development.
But then there are clearly other series (usually Nintendo's biggest sellers) that feel no compulsion to do that, like NSMB or WiiFit. That indicates to me that they're willing to look the other way if it's a series they really want to cash out on and develop as quickly as possible (as opposed to waiting for some innovation to hit them).
Silent_Ocarina
Member
That's the thing, though, isn't it? People don't believe in "principles." People are not opposed to rehashes or lazy ports. People can readily accept sequels in certain franchises. Otherwise, why would people be okay with F-Zero GX with HD visuals and online? Why would people be okay with Metroid Prime 4 instead of Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze? Why don't people really care for the improvements made in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD? It's not the principles behind the reality that people are upset about. I think that people aren't upset because Donkey Kong isn't something totally brand new, despite what they might say. Donkey Kong and Super Mario 3D Land aren't bad choices because they are sequels, regardless of what they claim. They're just upset because it's not what they wanted, which is totally fine, by the way.
...Did that make sense?
schwabdizzle
Banned
DKCR was a great game to be honest. I am looking forward to DKCR2, but I need a Wii U first.
w1gglyjones
Member
People say this because GX was expensive and didn't sell well. The chance of a GX remake with online is more realistic than a full new games due to the costs, IMO. No one is saying a new game would be unwanted, but it really seems unrealistic.
metalslimer
Member
Yeah that's generally an issue I see with Nintendo is that their development houses seem to take a very long time for some of these games that you would think wouldn't take long. If DKCR had been announced at E3 2012 for the launch window I don't think as many peope would have had the negative reaction. It was just the long 3 year buildup that got to people. As for the variety thing I don't see why Retro didn't do something different and then release DK later in the Wii U's life when it needs another game like this instead of a year after NSMBU and right before 3D World and anyone who thinks their isn't a huge overlap for 3D World and DK are crazy. They are going to compete against each other
Freezie KO
Banned
"People" this. "People" that. It's not hard to understand that "people" are made up of individuals. Each person has their different standards of what is acceptable to them and what they want.
Some people wanted DKC5. Some people wanted Metroid (I didn't). Others want something new.
Some people aren't okay with getting a direct sequel after 3 years (like Donkey Kong), but are okay with a direct sequel after 10 years (like F-Zero). That time actually makes a difference in how fresh a series is.
Some people care the DKC is a direct sequel. Others don't care, but they feel that the Wii U is just being overrun with platformers.
Some think DKC will be great and are happy with a fun game. Others think DKC will be fun, but wanted more diversity in the line-up. Other people might not even like DKC at all!
So stop with this infantile generalization "people" bit. It's a fallacious argument using playground logic.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think it bombed as terribly as people say, but the production values in GX were higher than they needed to be anyway. It didn't need the expensive CG scenes, voice acting, or extra music tracks for each character that went effectively unused (though that was a nice touch).
Ideally a new game would keep it simple. Maybe even make it a smaller scale eShop game. 16-20 new tracks, and basic gameplay modes like GP, arcade, death race, time trial. Maybe contract Shin'en to do it after the FAST 2 game they've hinted at.
This isn't really on topic though.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
My sincerest apologies for omitting the word "some" in every instance I used the word "people." I'd rather not play semantics here, but my general idea still comes across just fine, in my opinion.
For example, take your first point.
I don't see how this doesn't match what I've said. I said that "people are okay with sequels." I'll elaborate this sentence by expanding it to "people are okay with sequels as long as it's a sequel they want." Is this okay? Or do I need to add the word "some" to that? The fundamental point is that people will want what they want.
A more apt comparison would be to use Wind Waker HD. After all, the F-Zero I was talking about would be essentially a remake of F-Zero GX. I wondered why would people be okay with F-Zero GX with minimum upgrades while ignoring Wind Waker HD, which has arguably more upgrades than the hypothetical F-Zero GX HD? Yes, I am aware that the people who don't care for Wind Waker HD aren't necessarily the same people who want F-Zero GX HD. However, it still fits with the idea that "people want what they want." If anything, I was perpetuating the very idea that people are made up of individuals who want different things.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Okay there's like four arguments going on in this thread and they're all jumbling together, so let's delineate between them right now.
1) You are right, it is totally okay to be disappointed that this was not something else. That something else does not necessarily need definition - it's okay to be disappointed that it is not an epic adventure game or Metroid or Star Tropics or a Call of Duty-like or whatever.
A) But. I imagine we can both agree that there are degrees at which disappointment goes from reasonable to cartoonish. And where that line is doesn't have a hard definition. I don't think anyone is treating everyone with alternate preferences as fools or children and if they are they should stop.
2) I feel like expecting Nintendo secrecy to pay off in something commensurate to that secrecy is to either not follow Nintendo even passively or willingly ignore history. Which is, I think, a degree of disappointment that does actually veer in to ridiculousness, but my line is not everyone else's.
3) Maybe I missed the broader context for the "This doesn't sell systems" discussion when I posted about it, but my point wasn't it does sell systems or that a new IP wouldn't, just that it seems really strange to have the discussion at all. I don't know at what point Donkey Kong was sentenced to pushing a boulder up a hill, but it seems odd that this is a discussion to have about any one game. Even the most casual observer can see this isn't one of Nintendo's big hitters for console movement, if only because it is the only 2013 Wii U game they announced at E3 that was not delayed in to this year or revealed at a Nintendo Direct in Q1.
4) With regard to safe choices and what not...I am not sure I have a stance on that argument. I think when all is said and done in 2013, my game purchases will mostly be made of sequels and games that are technically new IPs but are very much in the mold of multi-million sellers (like Watch_Dogs). So my view on safe games probably does not match my wallet's.
Freezie KO
Banned
I think the sales discussion, insofar as it relates to the overall platform, is very relevant. After all, what else should we discuss in a thread about Retro Studios making a new DKC? We know exactly how the game will play. There are no surprises here.
So we know how they're making a new DKC. We know when they're making a new DKC. The only subject that's worth extended thought is why they're making a new DKC. And sales has to be a part of that discussion.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Building a library and selling systems are interconnected but do not, to me, equate to the same thing.
Snowden's Secret
Banned
When did you lose your tag?
I agree with this for people who wanted Metroid Prime 4. DK is no more universally disappointing than another Metroid game would have been. Plus Retro are only doing the same thing with DK that they already did with Metroid, which is have their first next gen game be a sequel to the last game they made.
I can understand people that are disappointed with both Metroid and DK and wanted Retro to do something fresher.
People can say that the Wii U has too many platformers and that's fine. But my response to that is go axe one of the other ones, don't take away my Donkey Kong.
Fantastical
Death Prophet
People can very well be disappointed by DK and still want Metroid. There is nothing like Metroid on the Wii U from Nintendo. There is (and is going to be) plenty like DK.
Carpe Libertatem
Member
I wasn't aware that the iPad offered local multiplayer (arguably the best in the industry, too). Families - parents and kids, etc - being able to play together cooperatively or competitively (in a way like SM3DWorld is doing with score, not like CoD or whatever) is a pretty big deal. iPad is a much larger threat to the 3DS
Wii U still needs a price cut for that though.
It's absolutely harmful and immediately builds up an identity and leading userbase for the system. This was the exact thing that happened with the GameCube! The N64 and Wii did a decent job of launching with varied first party software. Even though the Wii kind of immediately took favor to the cookie cutter party games shortly after.
I think it makes most sense for Nintendo to launch hardware with riskier and non-typical IPs. I mean Wii Sports and Wii Play blew up because of this. They should time their family friendly games accordingly and build momentum while actually trying to introduce new ips or reintroduce others.
w1gglyjones
Member
This is the biggest issue with the Gamepad. It's adding to the cost and it's weighing down the system instead of supporting it. They could have gone in lots of different design directions were it not for the Gamepad, but that's what they choose and it hasn't worked out so far.
That's not to say that it isn't nice or doesn't add useful features. But the cost isn't really fully justified when you compare it to the competition consoles and match up potential game libraries.
Maybe those are the games that higher-ups assumed that could be done quickest by each respective studio?
Retro: Follow up DKR.
Ead: Luigi DLC.
Goodfeel: Yarn stuff.
Ead Tokyo: Expand on 3D land.
Obviously the need to create a varied catalog wasn't in their long term goals, unless they think second party stuff is enough.
w1gglyjones
Member
This holiday lineup is the most mainstream they could make it. I don't have a problem these games, I'm disappointed with their actual output - the number of titles.
If Donkey Kong and TLoU are on two ends of a spectrum, most people here really are complaining that Retro's game isn't closer to TLoU on that spectrum. I'm not.
This is a more mainstream lineup even if it doesn't immediately have titles for "real gamers." I'm sure we'll more of those in 2014 along with Bayo2 and Xenowhatever. I'm disappointed that their output is so limited though in terms of volume... even more "casual/family/kiddeh" games would have been better.
Basically Gaf'ers think they know more with regards to software strategy for the Wii U than Nintendo themselves knows.
The Donkey Kong Returns franchise has obviously been very successful for Nintendo, selling millions and having a great reputation as a fun and well reviewed title as well. It makes total sense to me why they'd continue with a sequel, and why'd they continue with Retro Studies to helm it. They're the ones that are the originators of this success and it's their baby, at the end of the day.
When many people were disappointed with what was revealed, due to the sense of secrecy surrounding the next project, that's their problem for creating such hype and hope for their own personal desires of what Retro and Nintendo should be doing. Everyone constantly sets up this fancified expectation of what Nintendo should do and when that isn't met all those individuals go into a tizzy because they didn't get what they wanted.
We should always expect that kind of outlook/behavior on a message board I suppose, but this time it's just so childish to overlook it for me.
The Donkey Kong Returns franchise has obviously been very successful for Nintendo, selling millions and having a great reputation as a fun and well reviewed title as well. It makes total sense to me why they'd continue with a sequel, and why'd they continue with Retro Studies to helm it. They're the ones that are the originators of this success and it's their baby, at the end of the day.
When many people were disappointed with what was revealed, due to the sense of secrecy surrounding the next project, that's their problem for creating such hype and hope for their own personal desires of what Retro and Nintendo should be doing. Everyone constantly sets up this fancified expectation of what Nintendo should do and when that isn't met all those individuals go into a tizzy because they didn't get what they wanted.
We should always expect that kind of outlook/behavior on a message board I suppose, but this time it's just so childish to overlook it for me.
I'm 100% confident that if I was fully in charge of the Wii U project from the beginning and had total control of Nintendo's software I would have done a better job and it wouldn't be a floundering disaster.
Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
That's actually very sound. Let's try to get this HD software out as soon as we can. Still, first-party software doesn't have to be exclusively designated to the same group of people. LIke Microsoft or SONY, Nintendo could have easily scouted for certain types of games to publish from developers shopping projects around. I think the Western market pretty much dictates you should have a racing and FPS game at a launch. I mean, personal feelings aside, the NPD doesn't lie. Heck. Nintendo themselves once understood the Western market would react to certain software and licenses in parallel to typical Nintendo IPs.
I'm not sure Bayonetta 2 and X are what I would call "mainstream". Truthfully, they would be niche on SONY/Microsoft platforms and destined for absolute bomb city on Nintendo hardware given the cycle they are likely to be released in. I personally think even HD ports like Etertnal Darkness and F-Zero GX early Spring or Summer this year would have been great to open up that catalog on a feasible in budget. The cluster of IPs being released from July to December I think sort of paint a very select userbase for Nintendo.
Everyone and their momma thinks the same.
w1gglyjones
Member
I did not call Bayo2 and Xenowhatevs mainstream. I said that the holiday 2013 lineup was their most mainstream output possible. I specifically mentioned 2014 with respect to Bayo2, etc... to separate them. This holiday has the mainstream titles, of which those other games are not. So it makes sense to lead with the mainstream titles and bring other games in 2014. Retro making Donkey Kong instead of something like I described in that post above makes more sense in this regard.
Nothing stopping you from making your own Ouya and releasing your own console.
The Spoony Hou
Member
This topic makes me think they are fucking DK up. So it's just smeone getting pissy over Retro for whatever. Don't like it, ignore the game.
Carpe Libertatem
Member
And beautiful
Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
Understood but I think the rest of your postulation doesn't hold so well. The mainstream consumer base of NSMBU and Donkey Kong Country doesn't necessarily mean the construction of a conduit for X and Bayonetta 2. Goldeneye / Turok were mainstream and conducive to Perfect Dark, Mario Kart was mainstream and conducive to Diddy Kong Racing. The existence of certain types of games has to be there for others to be successful. Nintendo releasing Bayonetta 2 on the heels of their 2012 line-up, is an absolute disservice if you ask me. That's the importance of releasing games like F-Zero GX, SIn & Punishment, Pandora's Tower in some type of rhythmic pattern. Even if they bomb, the first few times. It's all about consistency and momentum imo. Consumers have to be convinced that certain types of flavors will be consistenly served.
Oh, im not saying their plan it's smart, some of it (DKR, 3D land) was probably already in the pipeline while others are the first signs of panic mode. The games will be fantastic, but it baffles me how they couldn't see such a lack of variety. I feel people are misinterpreting the problem here. Its not Nintendo refusing to make shootgangbang 3, its putting yet another studio to work on a "accesible-looking" platformer.
Doesnt matter if the original sold 5mil or that the 3DS port is doing great, demographics have a celling of growth, or just fade away like it happened to Wii owners, meanwhile other genres that Nintendo intends to explore with games like Bayonetta and FE X SMT will fail To reach their full potential because they dont have the proper catalog to convince fans of those genres to take the plunge.
One thing I am not liking about DKCR on the Wii (recently bought it) is how things go. Hit a bonus round and you land in the stage and you and Diddy scream out for a moment and then final,y you can play.
Fuck off. Keep the flow moving.
When you finish, it counts up your stats (even on just banana and coin rooms).
I don't care, keep me going.
Fuck off. Keep the flow moving.
When you finish, it counts up your stats (even on just banana and coin rooms).
I don't care, keep me going.
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