Support NeoGAF

[Gamer @ Heart]

This screen could be awesome. It can basically act as an item menu screen in zelda without pausing, rearview mirror for dropping bananas in Mario art, some batshit insane idea from Suda51, anything.

What I don't get is why its so big. 6 inches seems like overkill. Is there any chance it slides up or starts vertical and rotates or something so the whole controller doesnt hhave to form around a 6inch screen

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Are you a game play whore? Because more power can give a game a better frame rate as well which makes it play smoother.

Sure it can. More often than not that's not the option developers choose though.

 

[Door2Dawn]

So one developer comments that the N6 is being done in a way that's not gimmicky like the Wii, implying it's a directly competitive rig, but then we have all this discussion of how the N6 will be underpowered. No telling how this thing will be received by developers.

Underpowered compared to the nextbox and PS4

 

[Mr_Brit]

Ask Sony about that.

Including PS2 innards in the PS3 was one of Sony's biggest mistakes due to the costs of the components as the PS2 was a last gen system so still cost a decent amount to produce. The Wii on the other hand is a last-last gen system, it should be incredibly cheap(think less than $20) to include in the Wii 2.

 

[heringer]

Here's my terrible attempt at a mock-up, using my non-existent Photoshop skills:

It looks good, but also so fucking unconfortable to play with.

 

[Lonely1]

Well considering the Wii was slightly more powerful than the Xbox/GCN/PS2, this is kind of a repeat of last gen.

The Wii2, would, once again, be the underdog in performance.

No. Is not a repeat of the the last gen. Wii main problem was that its GPU and feature set was an arcane 1990's tech that none else used.

 

[H_Prestige]

Including PS2 innards in the PS3 was one of Sony's biggest mistakes due to the costs of the components as the PS2 was a last gen system so still cost a decent amount to produce. The Wii on the other hand is a last-last gen system, it should be incredibly cheap(think less than $20) to include in the Wii 2.

Why would the ps2 slim innards with the combined EE/GS be any more expensive than the Wii's guts? Sony was selling that thing for around $100 and making serious profit. Not unlike what Nintendo was doing with the GC.

 

[brain_stew]

Let's argue everything you say is true. Let's say developers decide this will be the baseline for their engines for the next gen. Let's say MS goes the minimalist (and smart) route and uses a Fusion processor. They're going to be able to up port every single Nintendo HD game to 1080P and 60 fps without any work or expense. Which version do you think consumers are going to buy? 720P/30fps/crap online or Sony or MS offerings that use the extra beef to run those engines at 1080P/60fps. This new system isn't going to by anything other than the Nintendo games machine.

They'll buy the version for the machine they own. If Nintendo establish a significant core base from the outset it won't matter if other versions run at a higher resolution. Multiplatform games sold much better on PS2 despite the presencee of the Xbox that had hardware in a completely different perfformance category.

 

[delta25]

I'd love to see them integrate the 3DS into the new console in some way.

 

[1-D_FTW]

Assuming PS4 and 720 are using real next gen tech:

Not all companies will want to spend between $60 to $100 million to make their triple AAA games next gen. Nintendo would have an advantage if they were the cheaper alternative with a higher install base.

No. I'm assuming they're using a modest (but modern) Fusion APU that is not only dirt cheap, but has a very modest power draw. I'm not arguing a 20 fold bump in performance. I'm just saying taking a high quality MODERN mobile part (that's cheap and energy efficient) and building the system on that. No more losses at launch. No more RRoD. And this modest upgrade is enough to render today's 720P/30fps games at 1080P/60fps.

Render resolution and framerates have nothing to do with software costs. If the engine baseline is 360/PS3/NHD - this 1080P/60fps will be for free on the new systems.

 

[Skiesofwonder]

I'm thinking if we are getting rumors of the system being dubbed "Project: Cafe" and including a screen on the controller and a front facing camera, Nintendo MUST be planning video conferencing to be a main feature.

It makes too much sense. What do people do in Cafes (besides drink coffee)? Chat with their friends face to face. And Nintendo has always disliked online gaming for not being as intimate as being in the same room with people.

Woah. That would be amazing.

I'm going to b really dissapointed if this isn't included now.

 

[Mrbob]

Power draw is very important to Nintendo, wider cores ran at a lower clockspeed is pretty much a given.

This is what confuses me about Nintendo using a custom r700 chip. If they are concerned about power draw wouldn't they want to use a custom R800 chip? The 5000 series cards were ATI's true break out hit in terms of being an evergreen design and also packing a lot of power.

I feel like we are having something lost in translation right now.

 

[Mr_Brit]

Also, Nintendo's online infrastructure will be crucial if they want the support of the hardcore. I can't see many western developers giving the machine much better support than the Wii unless it's got non crippled/embarrasing online. This means all the features of Xbox Live as well as more features.

 

[M74]

In terms of supporting BC, what reason does Nintendo have for not just sticking a reduced manufacturing process(say 45 or 32nm) Wii chipset on the motherboard? This means that they don't have to worry about BC when choosing and designing the CPU/GPU and memory and by then a 32nm Wii GPU/CPU combo would cost less than $20 to make.

When you're talking about mass production, even increasing the cost of manufacturing by a few cents can throw off an otherwise sound business plan. Like it or not, Nintendo is comprised of smart businessmen. Costs are weighed against alternatives. If there's a cheaper way to pursue BC than loading an extra chipset, you can bet that's what they'll do.

 

[A.KU.MU]

Nintendo currently manufactures 3DS' for $103. I imagine their pricing for the next Nintendo system would be comparable.

3DS retails for $249.99, Wii 2 will not. More like $349.99, if all the tech rumors are true.

 

[AceBandage]

I'd love to see them integrate the 3DS into the new console in some way.

Cross platform eShop.
Ability to use 3DS as controller.
Bank on it.

3DS retails for $249.99, Wii 2 will not. More like $349.99, if all the tech rumors are true.

It'll launch at $300, I'm betting.

 

[gofreak]

No. Is not a repeat of the the last gen. Wii main problem was that its GPU and feature set was an arcane 1990's tech that none else used.

Wii's was an 'everything' problem.

Even if it had a more respectable or modern GPU, architecture-wise, its memory and CPU would prevent 'HD' titles of even moderate ambition from running on the system.

I am far less concerned about the GPU in Nintendo's next system than the availability of enough 'other' processing to handle the gamespace processing of next-gen games. That'll be what's key. Even if the GPU isn't very powerful, they can make up for it with lower res or lower complexity shaders, or by just switching off shaders etc. next to the souped up, 1080p PS4/720 versions. Past a certain point, the graphics side of things can be manipulated along a scale fairly easily. But it needs to have enough of everything else to handle developers' next-gen ambitions beyond graphics.

 

[heringer]

They'll buy the version for the machine they own. If Nintendo establish a significant core base from the outset it won't matter if other versions run at a higher resolution. Multiplatform games sold much better on PS2 despite the presencee of the Xbox that had hardware in a completely different perfformance category.

Specially when a lot of people still says "lol who cares" to a lot of PC gamers who claim they are playing the same games but with higher resolution and much higher framerate.

 

[Mr_Brit]

Why would the ps2 innards with the combined EE/GS be any more expensive than the Wii's guts? Sony was selling that thing for around $100 and making serious profit. Not unlike what Nintendo was doing with the GC.

You really can't see why including 2001 innards in a 2006 console and including 2001 innards in a 2012 console aren't the same situation? Especially since if they've planned for it from the start they can bring it in at ridiculously low prices, I wouldn't be surprised if they could include a CPU/GPU chip for less than $10.

 

[Mojojo]

This screen could be awesome. It can basically act as an item menu screen in zelda without pausing, rearview mirror for dropping bananas in Mario art, some batshit insane idea from Suda51, anything.

What I don't get is why its so big. 6 inches seems like overkill. Is there any chance it slides up or starts vertical and rotates or something so the whole controller doesnt hhave to form around a 6inch screen

Somethng like the old Sharp 911 SH maybe? seing as it's one of Nintendo's major partners...

 

[NEO0MJ]

3DS retails for $249.99, Wii 2 will not. More like $349.99, if all the tech rumors are true.

I say no more that 399.99$.

 

[Mr_Brit]

This is what confuses me about Nintendo using a custom r700 chip. If they are concerned power wouldn't they want to use a custom R800 chip? The 5000 series cards were ATI's true break out hit in terms of being an evergreen design and also packing a lot of power.

I feel like we are having something lost in translation right now.

AMD are still making and selling the 5000 and 6000 series(in fact the 6000 series is derived from the 5000 series, they're very, very similar) and may not want to give up their designs for fear of their trade secrets leaking. The 4000 series on the other hand is out of production.

 

[M74]

Underpowered compared to the nextbox and PS4

I get that. That's not what I was saying. Early comments from the developer source made it sound like this thing would be attractive in the long term, like the developer seemed really excited about working with the machine. But we may just see this cycle repeat itself.

 

[Zeliard]

Here's my terrible attempt at a mock-up, using my non-existent Photoshop skills:

I think it'll be as minimalistic possible button-wise, with a limited number of buttons available for various sorts of navigation. More precise in-game movements will be done using either the touch screen or motion control, or both. The thing will feel less like a controller and more like a tablet.

I'm probably super completely way off, but it's rainy outside and I'm bored.

The issue with these mockups is still that screen. It's a 6" screen, presumably diagonally, which is over a 5" screen in horizontal length. That's bigger than the NGP's screen which is 5" diagonally.

 

[AceBandage]

Maybe the screen slides into the top of the controller.

 

[Mrbob]

Wii's was an 'everything' problem.

Even if it had a more respectable or modern GPU, architecture-wise, its memory and CPU would prevent 'HD' titles of even moderate ambition from running on the system.

I am far less concerned about the GPU in Nintendo's next system than the availability of enough 'other' processing to handle the gamespace processing of next-gen games. That'll be what's key. Even if the GPU isn't very powerful, they can make up for it with lower res or lower complexity shaders, or by just switching off shaders etc. next to the souped up, 1080p PS4/720 versions. Past a certain point, the graphics side of things can be manipulated along a scale fairly easily. But it needs to have enough of everything else to handle developers' next-gen ambitions beyond graphics.

Nintendo just really needs to not skimp on ram. Making an extra investment now in ram and only grabbing 40 dollars profit off of each hardware unit sold at launch versus 50 would be a great long term one.

 

[H_Prestige]

You really can't see why including 2001 innards in a 2006 console and including 2001 innards in a 2012 console aren't the same situation? Especially since if they've planned for it from the start they can bring it in at ridiculously low prices, I wouldn't be surprised if they could include a CPU/GPU chip for less than $10.

It's still an added cost which adds up to a lot considering how many of these will be manufactured.

I think it is more likely Nintendo has engineered this system so that Wii/GC software will be mostly compatible. I don't think there will be legacy hardware or full software emulation.

 

[Lonely1]

Wii's was an 'everything' problem.

Even if it had a more respectable or modern GPU, architecture-wise, its memory and CPU would prevent 'HD' titles of even moderate ambition from running on the system.

I am far less concerned about the GPU in Nintendo's next system than the availability of enough 'other' processing to handle the gamespace processing of next-gen games. That'll be what's key. Even if the GPU isn't very powerful, they can make up for it with lower res or lower complexity shaders, or by just switching off shaders etc. next to the souped up, 1080p PS4/720 versions. Past a certain point, the graphics side of things can be manipulated along a scale fairly easily. But it needs to have enough of everything else to handle developers' next-gen ambitions beyond graphics.

We have yet to see a game that is seriously CPU bounded. Or a Ps3 game that "can't run on 360" even though the CPU difference is not trivial. And (some) HD titles of moderate ambition made into the system. Would be a lot easier with modern architecture.

 

[dwu8991]

The issue with these mockups is still that screen. It's a 6" screen, presumably diagonally, which is over a 5" screen in horizontal length. That's bigger than the NGP's screen which is 5" diagonally.

Make it ipad size, but smaller like the andoird 7 inch tablet.

 

[Azure J]

Please Nintendo
http://www.cubed3.com/media/2009/July/jb/hdmgalaxy/1.jpg

God, the Galaxy games have such a wonderful aesthetic to themselves. I can't wait to see what Nintendo can do with more breathing room/potential.

 

[sfried]

Make it ipad size, but smaller like the andoird 7 inch tablet.

And add 4 buttons.

 

[Mr_Brit]

It's still an added cost which adds up to a lot considering how many of these will be manufactured.

I think it is more likely Nintendo has engineered this system so that Wii/GC software will be mostly compatible. I don't think there will be legacy hardware or full software emulation.

I can't see Nintendo going after BC unless it was 100%, they know their user base aren't the kind that would look up BC lists on the internet, they're the type that would put a Wii disc in and expect it to play without any hassle. Non 100% BC goes against everything Nintendo stands for.

 

[1-D_FTW]

They'll buy the version for the machine they own. If Nintendo establish a significant core base from the outset it won't matter if other versions run at a higher resolution. Multiplatform games sold much better on PS2 despite the presencee of the Xbox that had hardware in a completely different perfformance category.

The difference was modest in reality. And certainly not enough to offset the fact this was Japan development at its apex and XBox support was shutout for the most part.

And do you really think they're going to build up a huge lead during 1 year? I can't see MS waiting any where past 2013. This is why I find the 2012 the most unbelievable part of this story. All the arguments people are making make a whole lot more sense if it was a 2011 surprise attack and they were allowed to build some real steam up.

 

[vMaxx]

I CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE AN HD ZELDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MY DREAMS OF EXPLORING HYRULE IN HD GLORY WILL COME TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[gofreak]

We have yet to see a game that is seriously CPU bounded. Or a Ps3 game that "can't run on 360" even though the CPU difference is not trivial.

This is reasonably true, but whether that is by design to meet a common denominator or because devs just don't want more is a debatable point. And I think it remains an open question how much CPU power (or more generally 'non-graphics-processing') devs envisage wanting for next-gen games. That's genuinely, honestly a 'don't know' point, and I'm wary of anyone who makes claims one way or the other.

RAM is key too though.

It's all an open question...I expect all of this will be a HUGE focal point of debate in the next couple of years.

 

[AceBandage]

I CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE AN HD ZELDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MY DREAMS OF EXPLORING HYRULE IN HD GLORY WILL COME TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Screw that.
Retro should make a Metroid: Space Federation game.
Play as Anthony Higgs as a lone soldier out to save the universe from alien scum.

 

[brain_stew]

If the games are available on Nintendo's machine in the first place, then that would at least be an improvement, and IMO would be 'enough' to be a respectable effort.

The PS2 ran away with things despite at least one competitor offering better looking multiplat games. Key was its content access - it was totally comprehensive.

Nintendo, IMO, should be trying to aim for that with their next system. A system that can remain viable for third party multiplat games for the duration of the next generation, not just for tail-ends of the current generation.

How much or how little power they can get away with, I think, depends more on how devs envisage the scope and complexity of games scaling, beyond rendering improvements. Wii's problem wasn't simply a rendering one, it was an 'everything' one. It didn't have nearly enough memory or CPU power to run the same games (rendering aside) as 360/PS3. Nintendo should hopefully make sure their new system can run the same games (rendering aside) as PS4/720 - they can cut corners on resolution or texturing or shader complexity, but being able to run 'the game' and leverage (more or less) the same production pipeline is key to being able to offer comprehensive content access.

(Along, of course, with the right business and market environment etc. etc.)

If they have a DX11 GPU and CPU tightly integrated on a single die then a lot of those traditional CPU tasks can simply be off loaded to the GPU's stream processors. Sure, by doing this the gap in graphics is going to get ever larger but at least this stuff will actually run on the system, which can't be said of many of this generation's games and Wii.

Presumably one of the key "gameplay dependendent" areas that may be pushed is physics and thankfully modern GPUs have already shown thats an ideal candidate to be offloaded from the CPU to the GPU. It won't work for everything but its probably going to end up being a niche enough problem for it not to matter until several years into the generation, at which point Nintendo may be preparing a refresh anyway.

 

[Dedication Through Light]

3DS retails for $249.99, Wii 2 will not. More like $349.99, if all the tech rumors are true.

Why would it cost that much, it surely isnt that costly to be as powerful as the article says (ie comparing to the age of 360/ps3), and the touchscreen controller, if true, cant cost that much, the screen is just a bigger DSi XL screen on top of presumably a wiimote) and 10GB on board hardrive shouldnt shoot costs up, really. I think people are overestimating this device.

 

[Krev]

I'm thinking if we are getting rumors of the system being dubbed "Project: Cafe" and including a screen on the controller and a front facing camera, Nintendo MUST be planning video conferencing to be a main feature.

It makes too much sense. What do people do in Cafes (besides drink coffee)? Chat with their friends face to face. And Nintendo has always disliked online gaming for not being as intimate as being in the same room with people.

This is really brilliant. And I could see it causing a huge splash for online.
Now all Nintendo need to do is develop an actual gamer tag system and a proper marketplace, and we're good to go.

 

[Mr_Brit]

This is reasonably true, but whether that is by design to meet a common denominator or because devs just don't want more is a debatable point. And I think it remains an open question how much CPU power (or more generally 'non-graphics-processing') devs envisage wanting for next-gen games. That's genuinely, honestly a 'don't know' point, and I'm wary of anyone who makes claims one way or the other.

RAM is key too though.

It's all an open question...I expect all of this will be a HUGE focal point of debate in the next couple of years.

Crytek have stated that Crysis 2 was massively CPU bound especially on 360. Whatever happens next gen CPUs will be massively more powerful than Cell or Xenon.

 

[Jikagi]

My guess is that it'll cost $300,￥30,000.

 

[Deku]

The 3DS will be at most $199 by 2012

 

[Lonely1]

This is reasonably true, but whether that is by design to meet a common denominator or because devs just don't want more is a debatable point. And I think it remains an open question how much CPU power (or more generally 'non-graphics-processing') devs envisage wanting for next-gen games. That's genuinely, honestly a 'don't know' point, and I'm wary of anyone who makes claims one way or the other.

RAM is key too though.

It's all an open question...I expect all of this will be a HUGE focal point of debate in the next couple of years.

For one, i don't believe that the Wii 2 is going to have just have 512MB of RAM.

 

[heringer]

Screw that.
Retro should make a Metroid: Space Federation game.
Play as Anthony Higgs as a lone soldier out to save the universe from alien scum.

A HD Metroid game...

It's... glorious...

 

[Bentendo]

This is my favorite mockup so far:

It's so simple and so brilliant. I would LOVE something like this.

 

[Lonely1]

Crytek have stated that Crysis 2 was massively CPU bound especially on 360. Whatever happens next gen CPUs will be massively more powerful than Cell or Xenon.

Cell or Xenon? Since they are worlds apart already.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

This is my favorite mockup so far:

It's so simple and so brilliant. I would LOVE something like this.

Wouldn't work at all.

 

[jay]

I can't see Nintendo going after BC unless it was 100%, they know their user base aren't the kind that would look up BC lists on the internet, they're the type that would put a Wii disc in and expect it to play without any hassle. Non 100% BC goes against everything Nintendo stands for.

This is definitely true. Nintendo will not have mostly working BC.

 

[Duffyside]

If this thing is really just about equal to the 360, Nintendo can eat one. That's right, eat a dick, Nintendo... until a new 3d Zelda or Mario comes out on it. Then; hi, here's my money.

 

[snesfreak]

This thing sounds like it could be crazy (in a good way), E3 can't come soon enough.
I'm gonna try to get an HDTV before it comes out, my tv can't even do 480p.