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[dotnotbot]

This may go beyond "politics", unless i am mistaken polands mig's are NATO approved so they have identify friend of foe systems on board. They may not want NATO planes in ukraine for fear of enemy capture and reverse reingeneer. Especially if nato forces arent there guarding them

I get that, but then why USA gave Poland green light so they can do it on their own.

Blinken says Poland sending fighter jets to Ukraine gets a ‘green light’ from US

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said on Sunday that plans for Poland to send a fighter jets to Ukraine have gotten “the green light” from the U.S. and that the Biden ad…

thehill.com

 

[BigBooper]

No argument there. But that's not what's being claimed in these videos and posts. What's being claimed is that there are US backed bio-weapon facilities in Ukraine, and one of the reasons Putin is attacking the country is to destroy them. This is horseshit. I'll dismiss that conspiracy theory laden, Putin helping bollocks all day long. So should everyone else.

Ah, well i agree that sounds like complete bullshit. The first rumors I heard took the angle that he was going to try to capture bioweapons to use them himself, but I didn't pay much attention to that claim either.

 

[FunkMiller]

Looking at how things have developed in Europe the last 30 years, I would think that most of the Green parties really need to be looked at.

In most nations they were all for downsizing the military (because Russia isn't aggressive anymore), stopping nuclear evolution, and suggesting that LNG from Russia is something that isn't so bad (because Russia are friendly to the west now), until you develop renewable energy. Meanwhile, we can also see huge investors paying money to the green parties, from Russia.

(Thorium reactors, with a gen 5 sub plant, is there really anything more green and safe than that?)

The problem with green politicians is that they want the world to be a certain way, and refuse to accept any evidence to the contrary. Wanting a cleaner, greener environment is a laudable and absolutely correct standpoint, but it unfortunately does tend to come for some with a rose-tinted view of the world, and the people in it. That leaves them ripe for manipulation.

 

[FunkMiller]

Ah, well i agree that sounds like complete bullshit. The first rumors I heard took the angle that he was going to try to capture bioweapons to use them himself, but I didn't pay much attention to that claim either.

A lot of the time, the conspiracy theorists and propagandists will take a kernel of truth, and spin it out into their own fantasies and disinformation. Ukraine probably does indeed have facilities used to research disease - we have just been in the worst pandemic in recent human history, after all. And it stands to reason the west wouldn't want a place like that falling into Russian hands.

But that becomes a top secret bio-weapons facility being funded by the evil Americans... so Vlad's got a point, hasn't he?

It's unbelievably transparent, and anyone dumb enough to fall for it needs a good, long hard look at themselves.

The time for indulging conspiracy theory tripe against the west is over. A new cold war has started - one where digital disinformation is a real weapon that has to be stopped.

 

[STARSBarry]

Im not feeling too optimistic about the Migs. Even if Ukraine does get a bunch, they're pretty inferior to Russia's newer SU fighters and would likely lose in most direct dogfighting. of course if the Ukranian Army can somehow coordinate things so that they have stingers on the ground targeting Russian fighters at the same time that they're trying to deal with Ukranian jets, then that could tip the balance in their favor.

Believe it or nor jets don't dogfight anymore, missiles saw to that. And don't discount the old Mig 29, she might have been designed as an air superiority fighter but these days she's primarily maintained as a multirole fighter.

Ukraine could use quite effectively to strike targets of opportunity on the ground, like those artillary batteries that shell the city's constantly.

Ukraine can definitly find a use for a multirole fighter, that's why it's a multirole.

 

[BigBooper]

A lot of the time, the conspiracy theorists and propagandists will take a kernel of truth, and spin it out into their own fantasies and disinformation. Ukraine probably does indeed have facilities used to research disease - we have just been in the worst pandemic in recent human history, after all. And it stands to reason the west wouldn't want a place like that falling into Russian hands.

But that becomes a top secret bio-weapons facility being funded by the evil Americans... so Vlad's got a point, hasn't he?

It's unbelievably transparent, and anyone dumb enough to fall for it needs a good, long hard look at themselves.

The time for indulging conspiracy theory tripe against the west is over. A new cold war has started - one where digital disinformation is a real weapon that has to be stopped.

I disagree about ignoring it entirely, but if I'd read what you were talking about, yea I'd ignore that too. It would be more likely that Putin would want to capture the tech to use himself rather than destroy it for the good of humanity. I suspect whoever you read that from to be a astroturfer, who could be on the side of Putin, or just as likely to my mind, could be on the side of establishment news media to continue their smear against all conservatives or anyone who wants to support the current political establishments.

I'm not saying all the crazies are just astroturfers either, because I personally know several who fall for all that stuff. Most of the big disinfo spreaders I've drilled down on on Twitter are role-playing or propagandists.

I guess this is getting off topic so I'll stop.

 

[InverseAgonist]

I get that, but then why USA gave Poland green light so they can do it on their own.

Blinken says Poland sending fighter jets to Ukraine gets a ‘green light’ from US

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said on Sunday that plans for Poland to send a fighter jets to Ukraine have gotten “the green light” from the U.S. and that the Biden ad…

thehill.com

It sounds like the US was playing the PR game and wanted to be seen as supportive, figuring it would never amount to anything but they could signal that they cared. Then the Poles actually, you know, moved at speed to actually do something, leaving the American administration to actually think through what it was about to do and, as I posted earlier, realized this was a highly escalatory and dangerous move.

 

[FunkMiller]

It sounds like the US was playing the PR game and wanted to be seen as supportive, figuring it would never amount to anything but they could signal that they cared. Then the Poles actually, you know, moved at speed to actually do something, leaving the American administration to actually think through what it was about to do and, as I posted earlier, realized this was a highly escalatory and dangerous move.

One thing war does is highlight how actions have to back up words.

We've fallen into this pathetic morass of signalling our virtue... without actually feeling it necessary to do anything.

That all ended the day Putin invaded Russia.

Nothing like innocent people being butchered to throw a spotlight on feckless attitudes, and empty gesturing.

 

[EviLore]

"We'll gift our entire air force to Ukraine if you promise to replace it with something comparable or better, United States" is not exactly a discreet maneuver.

 

[dotnotbot]

It sounds like the US was playing the PR game and wanted to be seen as supportive, figuring it would never amount to anything but they could signal that they cared. Then the Poles actually, you know, moved at speed to actually do something, leaving the American administration to actually think through what it was about to do and, as I posted earlier, realized this was a highly escalatory and dangerous move.

Sounds possible, I just hope next time they will think through before supporting us in suicidal moves. Our government is dumb and likes playing "brave", we were scared they will hand those jets over ignoring the consequences and then blame USA if anything happens.

 

[InverseAgonist]

One thing war does is highlight how actions have to back up words.

We've fallen into this pathetic morass of signalling our virtue... without actually feeling it necessary to do anything.

That all ended the day Putin invaded Russia.

Nothing like innocent people being butchered to throw a spotlight on feckless attitudes, and empty gesturing.

I agree! Well said.

I'm not sold on this move and fear the rabbit hole it may lead down, but this neutered foreign policy of the Administration is pathetic. The Secretary of State is saying one thing, the State Department and DoD another. The Poles are out on a limb. It's fucking ridiculous and makes us look weak in the face of aggression.

Like you said, virtue signaling might work 100% of the time domestically when attacking Republicans, but it fails against real enemies like Putin.

 

[FunkMiller]

I agree! Well said.

I'm not sold on this move and fear the rabbit hole it may lead down, but this neutered foreign policy of the Administration is pathetic. The Secretary of State is saying one thing, the State Department and DoD another. The Poles are out on a limb. It's fucking ridiculous and makes us look weak in the face of aggression.

Like you said, virtue signaling might work 100% of the time domestically when attacking Republicans, but it fails against real enemies like Putin.

For balance: the virtue signalling from the left and the conspiracy theory laden bullshit from the right have both done wonders for Vladimir Putin over the past several years.

American politics has been so far up its own asshole for years, that it led to one president who was a lying, self serving moron, and now a geriatric who can barely speak a coherent sentence.

Both sides are equally to blame for this mess.

Hell, the entire west is to blame. We've all been so concerned with our petty little shit, that we allowed a mad man to get to the point where he could invade another country.

 

[DoomGyver]

Polish AF when they found out they’re trading their fighters for f16s.

 

[Gp1]

Polish AF when they found out they’re trading their fighters for f16s.

We'll have see where this F-16s will come from. I believe that both the F-16 and F-35 assembly lines are strained at this point.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I've been staying out of this thread because I don't trust any information I have access to regarding the invasion.

Is there some kind of consensus rounding out here on GAF or is everything still a giant cluster#@$%?

 

[Maiden Voyage]

I've been staying out of this thread because I don't trust any information I have access to regarding the invasion.

Is there some kind of consensus rounding out here on GAF or is everything still a giant cluster#@$%?

It’s hard to not sympathize with a country being invaded by a dick head.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

It’s hard to not sympathize with a country being invaded by a dick head.

I think that was basically consensus 16 days ago.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

I think that was basically consensus 16 days ago.

Not much has changed. Putin is still a douche.

 

[TwinB242]

 

[chromhound]

 

[GeorgioCostanzaX]

Beware the Ides of March indeed.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I've been staying out of this thread because I don't trust any information I have access to regarding the invasion.

And you still shouldn't. Currently everyone is in full-blown information warfare mode, basically nothing you see on the internet or TV can be taken at face value or fully trusted. You can always go down rabbit holes but all you'll end up with will be contradictory and/or inconclusive.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

Don’t drink and invade.

 

[Gp1]

That's not what it looks... apparently there is a video outside of the shop and the picture isn't that '"funny".

 

[Roll Fizzlebeef]

That's not what it looks... apparently there is a video outside of the shop and the picture isn't that '"funny".

Yea its apparently linked to a video that pretty much shows his entire squad dead outside, and he could potentially be mortally wounded.. certainly bleeding.

I doubt the captured part, from what i hear, he didnt make it..

Edit:in fact that could very well be a video of a man dieing.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

 

[AJUMP23]

"We'll gift our entire air force to Ukraine if you promise to replace it with something comparable or better, United States" is not exactly a discreet maneuver.

They know everything they would get is better than the MiG. Trying to get some F22s.

 

[InverseAgonist]

They know everything they would get is better than the MiG. Trying to get some F22s.

Haha, the US can't even get the F-22s to keep numbers up. Sad, but true.

NGAD or bust.

 

[chromhound]

Yea its apparently linked to a video that pretty much shows his entire squad dead outside, and he could potentially be mortally wounded.. certainly bleeding.

I doubt the captured part, from what i hear, he didnt make it..

Edit:in fact that could very well be a video of a man dieing.

The whole squad got wiped but they found him later and drunk

 

[Romulus]

Im not feeling too optimistic about the Migs. Even if Ukraine does get a bunch, they're pretty inferior to Russia's newer SU fighters and would likely lose in most direct dogfighting. of course if the Ukranian Army can somehow coordinate things so that they have stingers on the ground targeting Russian fighters at the same time that they're trying to deal with Ukranian jets, then that could tip the balance in their favor.

Im not confident in anything the Russians have, because Russians are piloting them.

 

[Freelance Yakuza]

CIA Director Bill Burns says Putin planned to take Kyiv in TWO DAYS

Giving evidence before Congress, CIA Director Bill Burns on Tuesday said Putin was angry and frustrated after his two-day plan to take Kyiv stalled in the face of fierce Ukrainian resistance.

www.dailymail.co.uk

• CIA Director Bill Burns revealed on Tuesday that Putin planned to capture Ukraine's capital Kyiv in two days
• Instead, after 13 days of fighting, his main attack column remains stalled outside the city
• Burns said an 'angry and frustrated' Putin was likely to down down with 'no regard for civilian casualties'
• Burns offered his assessment during a hearing of the House Intelligence Committee on threats to the US
• Avril Haines, Director of National Intelligence, said Putin was unlikely to be deterred by the setbacks
• And the US intelligence community estimates between 2,000 and 4,000 Russian troops have been killed
• They spoke just before President Joe Biden heaped more pressure on Moscow by banning Russian oil imports

Putin had made four key miscalculations when it came to planning his swift victory over Ukraine, added Burns.

1. The Russian leader thought Ukraine was easily intimidated and
2. That Europe, particularly France and Germany, was distracted by internal politics and was 'risk averse.'
3. He believed he had 'sanction-proofed' his economy and
4. That he had overhauled his armed forces so that they were capable of a quick, decisive victory.

He has been proven wrong on every count,' said Burns. 'Those assumptions have proven to be profoundly flawed over the last 12 days of conflict

 

[Vestal]

CIA Director Bill Burns says Putin planned to take Kyiv in TWO DAYS

Giving evidence before Congress, CIA Director Bill Burns on Tuesday said Putin was angry and frustrated after his two-day plan to take Kyiv stalled in the face of fierce Ukrainian resistance.

www.dailymail.co.uk

• CIA Director Bill Burns revealed on Tuesday that Putin planned to capture Ukraine's capital Kyiv in two days
• Instead, after 13 days of fighting, his main attack column remains stalled outside the city
• Burns said an 'angry and frustrated' Putin was likely to down down with 'no regard for civilian casualties'
• Burns offered his assessment during a hearing of the House Intelligence Committee on threats to the US
• Avril Haines, Director of National Intelligence, said Putin was unlikely to be deterred by the setbacks
• And the US intelligence community estimates between 2,000 and 4,000 Russian troops have been killed
• They spoke just before President Joe Biden heaped more pressure on Moscow by banning Russian oil imports

Putin had made four key miscalculations when it came to planning his swift victory over Ukraine, added Burns.

1. The Russian leader thought Ukraine was easily intimidated and
2. That Europe, particularly France and Germany, was distracted by internal politics and was 'risk averse.'
3. He believed he had 'sanction-proofed' his economy and
4. That he had overhauled his armed forces so that they were capable of a quick, decisive victory.

He has been proven wrong on every count,' said Burns. 'Those assumptions have proven to be profoundly flawed over the last 12 days of conflict

That is a BRUTAL analysis of the current conflict. I mean it is what we have been discussing over the past 2 weeks, but to hear it bullet point style from the CIA Director is pretty insane.

 

[Nico_D]

Stop spreading Chinese and Russian disinformation. Nuland is talking about infectious disease facilities. There are no US bio-weapon labs in Ukraine. Fuck’s sake. This is from RT for crying out loud

Yeah, it would be really smart to set up a bio-weapon lab to a non-EU and non-NATO country that is also next to Russia. And especially after 2014 and Crimea.

 

[akimbo009]

Haha, the US can't even get the F-22s to keep numbers up. Sad, but true.

NGAD or bust.

F22s aren't built anymore... And aren't exportable.

Seems the US was caught flat footed here - or (put tinfoil on) got back channelled that this was going to cause a serious escalation with Russia and walked it back.

Not convinced it's entirely necessary right now though... Definitely would put a nail in Putin's ear machine but things seemed stalled at best with Russian forces - and keeping their forces idle while using up fuel, food, and resources while getting smacked around ain't helping them at all.

 

[sinnergy]

That is a BRUTAL analysis of the current conflict. I mean it is what we have been discussing over the past 2 weeks, but to hear it bullet point style from the CIA Director is pretty insane.

That’s the man Putin is , hardly a man but a spoiled power hungry brad ..

 

[Von Hugh]

That’s the man Putin is , hardly a man but a spoiled power hungry brad ..

Napoleon complex embossed with some paranoia and self-brainwashing.

Every country in the world should have some mechanisms and controls that unstable persons cannot ascend to positions of power, or stay there.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

"We'll gift our entire air force to Ukraine if you promise to replace it with something comparable or better, United States" is not exactly a discreet maneuver.

 

[Dr.D00p]

Every country in the world should have some mechanisms and controls that unstable persons cannot ascend to positions of power, or stay there.

Sane people by their very nature don't go into politics. They leverage the fact that they're mostly a bunch of narcissistic sociopaths, who can trample over anyone that gets in their way to the top.

Russia simply has no tradition of democratic politics and rule, the only way you get to the top in that kind of envoirement is by being the biggest unstable thug in the room.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Russia simply has no tradition of democratic politics and rule, the only way you get to the top in that kind of envoirement is by being the biggest unstable thug in the room.

This, also worth noting Russian spin on autocracy is kleptocracy - Putin and his cronies are regularly stealing from the state, so hitting oligarchs should be the basis for sanctions. E.g. Russian part of Nord Stream 2 cost 3 times as much as the one being build on the German side. Same materials, same plans, labor in Russia is cheaper. But someone had to get paid.

 

[M1chl]

Don't think they are liquor stores in Europe, you buy that shit everywhere

 

[GeorgioCostanzaX]

Sane people by their very nature don't go into politics. They leverage the fact that they're mostly a bunch of narcissistic sociopaths, who can trample over anyone that gets in their way to the top.

Russia simply has no tradition of democratic politics and rule, the only way you get to the top in that kind of envoirement is by being the biggest unstable thug in the room.

Plus like many dictators he was elected in an unstable time then basically declared himself dictator for life because his party had the majority. Say what you will about the American constitutional system but at least we have effective checks and balances to prevent the tyranny of one party. I don’t know enough about parliamentary systems but history makes it seem like it’s way easier for someone to form a majority government with a one party super majority and then coerce that body info granting an emergency for life appointment.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Don't think they are liquor stores in Europe, you buy that shit everywhere

There are, especially in Eastern Europe, it's a relict of socialism where the distribution was regulated. Article in Polish, the English one doesn't have the correct context:

Sklep monopolowy – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia

pl.wikipedia.org

 

[Nico_D]

Don't think they are liquor stores in Europe, you buy that shit everywhere

"Europe" is a pretty wide term. We certainly have liquor stores. Regular stores can only sell drinks which have at maximum 5,5 % alcohol.

 

[Dr.D00p]

Plus like many dictators he was elected in an unstable time then basically declared himself dictator for life because his party had the majority. Say what you will about the American constitutional system but at least we have effective checks and balances to prevent the tyranny of one party. I don’t know enough about parliamentary systems but history makes it seem like it’s way easier for someone to form a majority government with a one party super majority and then coerce that body info granting an emergency for life appointment.

Doesn't matter what kind of system it is, Presidential or Parliamentary. Both are vulnerable to Putin types without robust civil institutions, a free press and a firm, independent judiciary and rule of law based society.

There's a reason why the UK for instance has never produced a Napoleon, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin or a Putin. The institutions in place will stop them long before they ever get a chance to get into a position of power.

 

[Rest]

They know everything they would get is better than the MiG. Trying to get some F22s.

Nobody gets F22s except America. That's why Typhoons and Rafales exist.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Don't think they are liquor stores in Europe, you buy that shit everywhere

Nani?

Gall & Gall | Jouw slijterij voor wijn, whisky, sterk en bier!

Gall & Gall is dé drankspecialist sinds 1884. Koop je wijn, whisky, champagne, bier of sterke drank eenvoudig online. Voor 22:00 besteld, morgen in huis!

www.gall.nl

 

[MidGenRefresh]

It's beautiful

 

[chonga]

CIA Director Bill Burns says Putin planned to take Kyiv in TWO DAYS

Giving evidence before Congress, CIA Director Bill Burns on Tuesday said Putin was angry and frustrated after his two-day plan to take Kyiv stalled in the face of fierce Ukrainian resistance.

www.dailymail.co.uk

• CIA Director Bill Burns revealed on Tuesday that Putin planned to capture Ukraine's capital Kyiv in two days
• Instead, after 13 days of fighting, his main attack column remains stalled outside the city
• Burns said an 'angry and frustrated' Putin was likely to down down with 'no regard for civilian casualties'
• Burns offered his assessment during a hearing of the House Intelligence Committee on threats to the US
• Avril Haines, Director of National Intelligence, said Putin was unlikely to be deterred by the setbacks
• And the US intelligence community estimates between 2,000 and 4,000 Russian troops have been killed
• They spoke just before President Joe Biden heaped more pressure on Moscow by banning Russian oil imports

Putin had made four key miscalculations when it came to planning his swift victory over Ukraine, added Burns.

1. The Russian leader thought Ukraine was easily intimidated and
2. That Europe, particularly France and Germany, was distracted by internal politics and was 'risk averse.'
3. He believed he had 'sanction-proofed' his economy and
4. That he had overhauled his armed forces so that they were capable of a quick, decisive victory.

He has been proven wrong on every count,' said Burns. 'Those assumptions have proven to be profoundly flawed over the last 12 days of conflict

I have a real hard time believing the two day claim. Even if they met zero resistance and didn't have to fire a single weapon it'd still take more than two days.

I think the only thing that will have surprised is how far the west is willing to go without stepping foot in the country - and especially the speed at which it is doing so. The west, especially the EU, loves to pontificate over the finer details and employs layers of nonsense that prevents quick action but here that's not happened. Everyone's been on the same page and everyone's done it quickly.

In addition to that a few countries that you might have expected to stay out of matters and who have recently been a bit cold or upset with the US and/or the major players in Europe have also joined in on the fun.

 

[Airbus Jr]

 

[Wildebeest]

I have a real hard time believing the two day claim. Even if they met zero resistance and didn't have to fire a single weapon it'd still take more than two days.

Yeah, people are questioning if Putin is still mentally competent or if he is just isolated and surrounded by people who feel unable to tell the truth.