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Russia begins Invasion of Ukraine

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akimbo009

akimbo009

Gold Member
Sakura said:
As opposed to dragging this out and watching the country burn, only for Russia to eventually get what it wants anyway? Sometimes you need to cut your losses. Like I said though, ultimately it is up to Ukraine.


Russia already has Crimea. They didn't go to war just to get what they already had.

Russia isn't freely rewarded. They've lost a lot of equipment, and likely a lot of men. Not to mention the hits they've taken to the economy.
And you are right, it will be true for China. China is sitting there growing its power. In the near future, they will militarily be in a position to challenge the US in Asia.
It's the same reason they are able to get away with doing the shit they do to the Uyghurs, amongst other things. We are unwilling to force a confrontation, due to the costs of doing so, and so they get away with it.
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It's not my timetable, or yours. It's the Ukrainians. And if I think about the death and loss they are experiencing I think it's horrible, but they know it is but still do it. Why? Cause they actually value freedom and their ability to express themselves in ways that chart their own destiny. They don't want to relegate their history back to Russia.
We keep saying this is just a Putin problem, or whatever. That's true for now, but Ukraine has constantly been ravaged by equally horrible or worse Russian leaders for hundreds of years. They aren't going back to that works quietly. Putin's death won't be the end of Ukraines history, even if they concede as you suggest - and they may - but they won't go quietly. I'd hope other free people also wouldn't either.
 
6502

6502

Member
funkygunther said:
The knife is what in your metaphor? Because it looks like that is some Ukranian aggression.. or is the knife the fake threat(s) that Putin tells his people?
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He is on about a mismatch in weaponary in favour of Russia, I don't think there is some deep meaning beyond the point which was pretty clear.
 
Raven117

Raven117

Member
STARSBarry said:
That's already been put on the table and has been declined just this week.

By next week it might only be Crimea and then Nato, and then it might only be Crimea because the week before last it was nothing short of full surrender.

And you can say "that's a good deal" but only a Ukrainian will really be able to tell you if it's a "good deal" or not.

It's funny how people always list Russians exact demands as a "good deal". I am sure them agreeing to not join NATO after 2014 was a "good deal" at the time too, the delay ended up biting them in the ass sadly.
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Negotiations are on going and never done in one shot. Just because it was declined this week, wont mean it wont be taken next week (or the week after).

Of course the ultimate decision is with the Ukrainians. I would love for the Ukrainians to keep fighting and kick out the Russians. That would be awesome. But there is a reality of just how long they can keep fighting even with NATO pumping weapons into the country. At some point, the death toll, civilians dead, cities leveled will force a deal or the country will be nothing but rubble. Im not saying this is simple or easy.

(They would not have gotten into NATO in 2014 due to the conflicts in the East...so that's a non-starter).


IDKFA said:
Ukraine would then be losing more of their nation to Russia. Plus blocked from joining NATO (possibly the EU as well) so they'll still be under Russia's thumb.

I know we want to end the war. Civilians are being killed by Russians are a disgusting rate. However, I don't agree with letting Russia get what they want. What if they decided to then go into Finland? Should we let them just to prevent bloodshed and give them what they want? Where do you draw the line?
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They want all of Ukraine. This is not giving them what they want.
 
DeepBreath87

DeepBreath87

Banned
funkygunther said:
The knife is what in your metaphor? Because it looks like that is some Ukranian aggression.. or is the knife the fake threat(s) that Putin tells his people?
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The knife is just Ukraines ability to hurt Russia. They can certainly do damage, but it’s just proverbial knife in the gun fight. Russia has the ability to inflict far greater damage to Ukraine, simply due to numbers, technology, and the fact the confrontation is occurring exclusively on Ukrainian soil.
 
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Wildebeest

Wildebeest

Member
War is nothing like being mugged. Carl von Clausewitz long ago settled the argument that defence is the stronger form of war. This is largely because war is a political policy. For a defender, the policy is simpler. Like, if you cut me twice and demand my wallet, and then I burn my wallet and cut you once, it is clearer who should retreat.
 
RAÏSanÏa

RAÏSanÏa

Member
6502 said:
He is on about a mismatch in weaponary in favour of Russia, I don't think there is some deep meaning beyond the point which was pretty clear.
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Also the mismatches in Ukraine's favour are unmentioned, maybe imperceptible, by the analogist.
 
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DeepBreath87

DeepBreath87

Banned
Raistandantulus said:
It's a poor analogy to start with. Enlightenment, for you, may begin contemplating Russia's weaknesses.
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I didn’t begin the analogy. I simply elaborated on it. And, again, how about you try and actually make a point instead of posting cringy nonsense and cryptic, passive aggressive garbage? Maybe actually engage in the discussion if you’re capable. If you want to talk about Russia’s weakness, how about, I don’t know, actually talking about them? Do that instead of whatever you’re doing now. Its tiresome and contributes nothing.
 
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RAÏSanÏa

RAÏSanÏa

Member
DeepBreath87 said:
I didn’t begin the analogy. I simply elaborated on it. And, again, how about you try and actually make a point instead of posting cringy nonsense and cryptic, passive aggressive garbage? Maybe actually engage in the discussion if you’re capable. If you want to talk about Russia’s weakness, how about, I don’t know, actually talking about them? Do that instead of whatever you’re doing now. Its tiresome and contributes nothing.
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Of course.
 
EviLore

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
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TheGrat1

TheGrat1

Member
spons said:
RT and Sputnik websites are blocked from today here in the Netherlands across all major providers. I support the sentiment from the EU sanctions, but it also worries me how simple it seems to be to apply censorship.
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I agree with this. I do not want the government deciding what information I can consume, even if it is outright foreign propaganda. Slippery slope and all that.
NoLootBoxDev said:
I think people misunderstood what I am saying. Russia told the invasion was due to NATO Borders (or similar excuse, which has now changed), which is a shit argument to start the war, I have seen people justifying this excuse, but not me. I am 100% against this war, and Russia on this.
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This. I roll my eyes when people cite NATO's enlargement as provocation. NATO has been bordering Russia for decades (Kaliningrad is literally surrounded) and is as close to Moscow as it can possibly be. No fighting. No war. No invasion. What is NATO waiting for? 🤷‍♂️
dotnotbot said:


What the fuck is going on here. USA gives us "green light" to hand over those jets to Ukraine but with a disclaimer that it's only our independent decision. Then after we make an offer that NATO hands them over instead of us they refuse saying it's too risky.
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Suggestion: Poland simply "sells" the jets to Ukraine for an extremely low price, thus avoiding the appearance of partisanship.
 
RAÏSanÏa

RAÏSanÏa

Member
DeepEnigma said:
Or perhaps more so, refugee wise. Nefarious people never let a good crisis go to waste.
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I think better of the nations they're escaping to.

There was a Brazilian politician who said he learned how to take advantage of the crisis for human smuggling. There was an opportunity for Ukraine to ask him some questions about that.
 
I

InverseAgonist

Banned
TheGrat1 said:
Suggestion: Poland simply "sells" the jets to Ukraine for an extremely low price, thus avoiding the appearance of partisanship.
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It's a bit more complicated. Poland doesn't want the intrinsic risk associated with having Ukrainian pilots flying directly from Polish airfields to Ukraine as they could be targeted by Russian stand-off weapons. Again, the Russians would see the transfer of MiG-29s as an escalation and from their perspective striking the bases would be a defensive maneuver to prevent additional losses in Ukraine.

This is likely why the Poles wanted to use the US as a go-between and transfer at Rammstein AFB. The US would take on the risk and responsibility and if attacked, would be forced to deal with the consequences.

The US is OK with a direct transfer as it allows them to keep distance and walk away from the Poles. Amazingly shitty, but Biden is... well... realpolitik
 
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RAÏSanÏa

RAÏSanÏa

Member
Edgelord79

Edgelord79

Gold Member
Raven117 said:
Negotiations are on going and never done in one shot. Just because it was declined this week, wont mean it wont be taken next week (or the week after).

Of course the ultimate decision is with the Ukrainians. I would love for the Ukrainians to keep fighting and kick out the Russians. That would be awesome. But there is a reality of just how long they can keep fighting even with NATO pumping weapons into the country. At some point, the death toll, civilians dead, cities leveled will force a deal or the country will be nothing but rubble. Im not saying this is simple or easy.

(They would not have gotten into NATO in 2014 due to the conflicts in the East...so that's a non-starter).



They want all of Ukraine. This is not giving them what they want.
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There are in effect no negotiations happening. It's a show. Only one side is negotiating in good faith, the other has no power to make decisions as evidence by Lavrov's ridiculous comments yesterday and by the Ukrainian's foreign minister's reactions. This is a typical Putin tactic to appease people into thinking that he is open to negotiations.

Ukrainian's aren't fighting for Ukraine anymore. They are fighting for a higher purpose. Democracy and the free world.
 
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