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[Gp1]

It isn't about today for them in Russia, but their understanding of history. The fact that Germany and Poland are united in sharing humanitarian concerns about Ukrainian people led by a Jewish man shows us those countries have moved on from this history. The fact that Moscow thinks that any expression of independent Ukrainian statehood just has to be a genocidal Nazi collaborator uprising shows they haven't.

I think you're not getting my point. I'm talking about this strictly as a cease fire negotiation condition POV.

The fact that there is an extremely insignificant minority of Neo-Nazi douchebags in the country does nothing to change the situation and what's happening. It's all just a smoke screen and a distraction used by Russia to in some way try to excuse what they are doing.

And even that will start to lose appeal domestically (globally it never gained traction) once the Russian losses on this war starts to pile up, specially at this rate. They'll have to sweep this condition under the rug somehow if they want a way out of this war. And right now it looks like Russia's main motif domestically.

 

[RAÏSanÏa]

Well Ukraine also has their own little neo nazi group, so I guess they are even.

That symbol looks like it cancels Z.

They killed a Russian general recently.

Russians undoubtedly left their general in the field to be eaten by crows with the rest of their honourless soldiers.

 

[Wildebeest]

I think you're not getting my point. I'm talking about this strictly as a cease fire negotiation condition POV.

I'm saying the negotiations are not in good faith and that all the Kremlin care about is murdering Zelenskyy and putting in their own puppet regime.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Well Ukraine also has their own little neo nazi group, so I guess they are even.

GTFO with this whatsboutism shit.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Well Ukraine also has their own little neo nazi group, so I guess they are even.

We literally JUST fucking had this conversation.


Get this whatabout BS out of here.

 

[akimbo009]

That would depend on their role within the nation. A question to answer that would be "Are they a threat to the citizens of the nation they're in?" That's for each country's citizens to figure out for themselves.

Nah man, we still punch Nazis cause fuck Nazis.

This has nothing to do with Russia invading Ukraine though. That's just another bullshit excuse for being a world class shithead that Putin very clearly is.

I don't even know what this weird debate in this thread has descended to...

But..

Fuck Nazis
Fuck Putin
And Fuck Azov but let's wait until this war is over.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Nah man, we still punch Nazis cause fuck Nazis.

Only correct response.

 

[Resident_UA]

A bit is an understatement but whatever. This is a more mature response compared to your prior ones. The problem is that you emotionally reacted without understanding what was being stated and not even realizing that apparently we believe the same thing(the idea of russia trying to manufacture consent in their demands using nazis despite everyone know this is absurd). However, in your mind you created a false argument and went off on a tirade until you slowly started to realize that maybe just maybe we agree on the actual point that was made. Also I never mentioned Azov so that clearly has to be meant for someone else unless you lumped that in with my words, which were never made in direct correlation with such.

You have to realize that this whole Nazi bull shit narrative is something that Ukraine has been fighting against for the past 8 years on daily basis and was LOOSING that whole time. Sure it changed over night, but there are still idiots who keep pedaling this insanity on both left and the right. It literally just happened again on this page and I don't even want to respond to it again! The whole world has been swallowing Russian propaganda over the curse of the last 20 years or so and literally no one bothered to check as long as the gas was cheap. Just because most people are seeing through this bullshit now, it doesn't mean that we should not hold people responsible, because it will happen again. And in this case I don't mean just Russia, I mean Germany (gas), I mean Italy (luxury), and I mean pretty much all US presidents.

The response that happened this year should have happened all the way back in 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia. That was the red line that should have never been crossed.

 

[RAÏSanÏa]

The answer to that question will always be yes. The current situation of bad people doing good things doesn't change that in the long run.

Bad doesn't mean immoral.

"Do you wonder ever if you're a bad man?"
"No. I don't wonder, Marty."

 

[Gp1]

I'm saying the negotiations are not in good faith and that all the Kremlin care about is murdering Zelenskyy and putting in their own puppet regime.

Again, you are thinking pre 02/24 Russia when Putin was thinking that this was going to be a cake walk.

Zelensky today is a global and domestical superstar. Without him, specially now, a new Ukrainian government would be illegitimate.

 

[MrMephistoX]

Nah man, we still punch Nazis cause fuck Nazis.

This has nothing to do with Russia invading Ukraine though. That's just another bullshit excuse for being a world class shithead that Putin very clearly is.

I don't even know what this weird debate in this thread has descended to...

But..

Fuck Nazis
Fuck Putin
And Fuck Azov but let's wait until this war is over.

Would caveat: fuck actual Nazis like Putin not anyone who has some conservative views.

 

[manfestival]

You have to realize that this whole Nazi bull shit narrative is something that Ukraine has been fighting against for the past 8 years on daily basis and was LOOSING that whole time. Sure it changed over night, but there are still idiots who keep pedaling this insanity on both left and the right. It literally just happened again on this page and I don't even want to respond to it again! The whole world has been swallowing Russian propaganda over the curse of the last 20 years or so and literally no one bothered to check as long as the gas was cheap. Just because most people are seeing through this bullshit now, it doesn't mean that we should not hold people responsible, because it will happen again. And in this case I don't mean just Russia, I mean Germany (gas), I mean Italy (luxury), and I mean pretty much all US presidents.

The response that happened this year should have happened all the way back in 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia. That was the red line that should have never been crossed.

That is fine and you can address such things with those people that this applies to. It just has nothing to do with me and what I am saying.

 

[12Goblins]

Yeah I don’t want the fuck your freedoms guy as the president!

you know what he meant; fuck your freedoms [as soon as they affect or harm other people]

 

[Resident_UA]

Nah man, we still punch Nazis cause fuck Nazis.

This has nothing to do with Russia invading Ukraine though. That's just another bullshit excuse for being a world class shithead that Putin very clearly is.

I don't even know what this weird debate in this thread has descended to...

But..

Fuck Nazis
Fuck Putin
And Fuck Azov but let's wait until this war is over.

Only correct response.

Look I support statement: "punch Nazis cause fuck Nazis" And that's precisely the reason why having this discussion now is so insane and why Russian propaganda pisses me off so much. Because there should not be any nuance when we talk about punching Nazis...

But let's talk about Azov for a minute (I can't believe I have to get into this). Ukraine had no army in 2014. So few oligarchs decided to pour their money in groups that they could count on the most. Those ended up being more extreme groups (football hooligans etc). And a portion of those people tends to be Nazi shitheads (just like anywhere on the planet). But even within Azov it's a tiny minority. The major reason why people joined those battalions back in 2014 was because they were effective and well financed not because they had few shitheads within. Today it's even less of the problem. Most of those battalions were disbanded and lots of the Nazis actually ended up in jail. Azov was cleaned up and integrated into the army. So today, I would not even be sure if there are many Nazis connected to these battalions. But even having this discussion is a problem. Because it validates Russian bullshit.

 

[StateofMajora]

you know what he meant; fuck your freedoms [as soon as they affect or harm other people]

Yeah yeah yeah you little dictator you…

 

[Resident_UA]

That is fine and you can address such things with those people that this applies to. It just has nothing to do with me and what I am saying.

You can't even imagine how hard it is to tell a troll apart from... Well... not troll. It usually starts with "but Ukraine does have some Nazis" and within few posts it ends up being "Ukraine is not even a country". I've been through this on this same board in 2014. And it took until 2022 for anything to change...

 

[QSD]

Hmmm, maybe we should have an official NeoGAF document/protocol to help identify actual 'behavioural' Nazis from the 'social media diagnosed' Nazis

Gasses jews/gypsies etc Y/N?
Burns books Y/N?
Blond hair obsession Y/N?
Authoritarian leadership style Y/N?
Maintains extensive system of interment camps? Y/N
Attempts to harness ancient occult powers? Y/N

etc etc


I don't want to make light of Nazi's but the way I see it there is a lot of LARPing going on in that scene. If it's all talk/showmanship but there's little actual Nazi behaviour, then I would probably turn a blind eye given the current situation in Ukraine. Deal with them when the Russians have fucked back off home.

 

[Resident_UA]

Hmmm, maybe we should have an official NeoGAF document/protocol to help identify actual 'behavioural' Nazis from the 'social media diagnosed' Nazis

Gasses jews/gypsies etc Y/N?
Burns books Y/N?
Blond hair obsession Y/N?
Authoritarian leadership style Y/N?
Maintains extensive system of interment camps? Y/N
Attempts to harness ancient occult powers? Y/N

etc etc


I don't want to make light of Nazi's but the way I see it there is a lot of LARPing going on in that scene. If it's all talk/showmanship but there's little actual Nazi behaviour, then I would probably turn a blind eye given the current situation in Ukraine. Deal with them when the Russians have fucked back off home.

If you take even the most extreme groups in Ukraine you would barely get one yes for them on this list. 90% of Ukrainian Nazis is literally tattoos because they think that if Germany won Ukraine would be less fucked now. While Russia is mostly yes except for the hair part... And interment camps is debatable. I mean they do arrest shitload of people who disagree with the government.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Blond hair obsession Y/N?

Ban everyone:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/blonde-appreciation-thread.1627286/

 

[Catphish]

But even having this discussion is a problem. Because it validates Russian bullshit.

No. Having a discussion is not a problem. If the participating parties are discussing a topic in good faith, and are seeking understand, that is never a problem. Attacking people because your emotions get the better of you, and being unwilling to hear someone out because you've already prejudged them in a fit of irrational rage, that is a problem.

 

[Wildebeest]

Again, you are thinking pre 02/24 Russia when Putin was thinking that this was going to be a cake walk.

Zelensky today is a global and domestical superstar. Without him, specially now, a new Ukrainian government would be illegitimate.

One thing experts agree on is that Putin never backs down, he only goes for more extreme measures.

 

[Resident_UA]

No. Having a discussion is not a problem. If the participating parties are discussing a topic in good faith, and are seeking understand, that is never a problem. Attacking people because your emotions get the better of you, and being unwilling to hear someone out because you've already prejudged them in a fit of irrational rage, that is a problem.

There's no way to discuss this in good faith. If the ONLY reason why the topic exists is because it's part of propaganda of one country trying to destroy another there's no value in this discussion. If there were other reasons I could see the value. But in this case it's impossible.

I'll provide an insane example. Imagine if there was a thread about pizza toppings and someone was debating about ice cream flavors. You would automatically think that someone is trying to put ice cream on the pizza. Context matters.

 

[Catphish]

There's no way to discuss this in good faith. If the ONLY reason why the topic exists is because it's part of propaganda of one country trying to destroy another there's no value in this discussion. If there were other reasons I could see the value. But in this case it's impossible.

I'll provide an insane example. Imagine if there was a thread about pizza toppings and someone was debating about ice cream flavors. You would automatically think that someone is trying to put ice cream on the pizza. Context matters.

You can paint it however you want. Simple fact is that telling people what they can and can’t discuss, especially when you have them misunderstood from jump, isn’t going to work out for you. But do what you want. Just don’t expect to make a difference in anyone’s mind.

I’ve said all I have to say about this. Moving on.

 

[Resident_UA]

You can paint it however you want. Simple fact is that telling people what they can and can’t discuss, especially when you have them misunderstood from jump, isn’t going to work out for you. But do what you want. Just don’t expect to make a difference in anyone’s mind.

I’ve said all I have to say about this. Moving on.

I'm literally not trying to change anything and just expressing my frustration. I'm not pretending that I'm adding much to the topic or trying to be reasonable. It's fucking war, there's no way to be reasonable. And venting is pretty much just part of the process.

That said there are certain topics that should not be brought up in this thread unless there's a good reason to. Look Ukraine is pretty good at propaganda at this point too, but if anyone mentioned ghost of Kyiv shooting down 20 planes over the past day or so they would be ridiculed. The same should happen when Nazis come up. It's Russian propaganda and nothing more (or less for that matter).

 

[darrylgorn]

A few Nazis vs an entire army demolishing civilians and their homes.

 

[RAÏSanÏa]

A few Nazis vs an entire army demolishing civilians and their homes.

That's what makes the argument against Azov so blatantly pro-Russian. It diminishes the true atrocity that's actually happening to attack Ukraine over something trite and justify their suffering with it.

 

[MastaKiiLA]

But even having this discussion is a problem. Because it validates Russian bullshit.

it's an issue that some people can't wrap their heads around. Propaganda is only effective when idiots start parroting it. Are there neo-nazis in Ukraine? Probably. There are neo-nazis in every western nation. It doesn't justify attacking another nation. Ukraine isn't nazi Germany. Not even close. Not unless the rest of the world has completely ignored a growing threat in a nation that all of Europe wants in NATO.

It's like the dumbfuck Q conspiracies. We had a bunch of idiots parroting those claims too, under the false pretense of wanting an open and honest discussion. There is no value in that, other than helping the propaganda to propagate even further. Yes, Ukraine is using propaganda too, but are we really about to scold them for that when they're the ones being attacked here? IMO, they're allowed whatever wacky tactics they want, as long as they're not committing violent war crimes. I have a hard time feeling any kind of way about Ukrainian propaganda when the country that's attacking them is very blatantly and publicly lying about just about everything.

There is one bad guy here, Russia. That's the long and short of it. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Rule, it wouldn't be acceptable to start having a conversation about the evil Jews in Poland, while Hitler was attacking them. Hitler villified innocent people in order to garner support for his war. That's not at all different from what Putin is doing. Fuck him, fuck Russia, and fuck their apologists. You're not being intellectually curious when your topic of interest is a pack of bald-faced lies from a dumbfuck dictator.

I hate an echo chamber, but I hate war mongers even more.

 

[NoLootBoxDev]

Is really someone justifying this shit? Why not ask Russia to denazify your country, I bet you would feel happy and proud as they kill children and women....

 

[Thaedolus]

Wait are you actually saying that communist dictators are somehow not as bad as nazi dictators?

Specifically talking USSR's setup where there was a politburo which had some say in things, and the General Secretary had some accountability. I'm saying that concentrating power in one person with a cult of personality is probably much more dangerous than even what we faced during the cold war. I guess you could say the USSR would be better than Putin's Russia now, in that sense. But it's like asking how you'd prefer to die: cancer or a heart attack?

 

[akimbo009]

That's what makes the argument against Azov so blatantly pro-Russian. It diminishes the true atrocity that's actually happening to attack Ukraine over something trite and justify their suffering with it.

Can't we say both? Certainly think Azov should be dealt with by Ukrainians since it is definitely problematic - but 1,000 shitheads aren't an army or a people.

 

[Lunarorbit]

Ban everyone:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/blonde-appreciation-thread.1627286/

Good thing I only reply in the big boob thread!

 

[Resident_UA]

Can't we say both? Certainly think Azov should be dealt with by Ukrainians since it is definitely problematic - but 1,000 shitheads aren't an army or a people.

Could you explain why Azov is problematic TODAY without using any of the Russian propaganda? It's literally impossible. The best you can come up with will be that some soldiers might have a Nazi tattoo or something like that. But even that I'm not sure would be happening TODAY and even then it would be no different than any other army on the planet. There are literally thousands of Confederate tattoos in US army. I hate to keep resorting to whataboutism, but this topic was literally created by Russian propaganda and that's the only reason why it exists. And the fact that you still cannot get over it after Russa lied multiple times and killed countless civilians is really worrying.

 

[M1chl]

That's what makes the argument against Azov so blatantly pro-Russian. It diminishes the true atrocity that's actually happening to attack Ukraine over something trite and justify their suffering with it.

Privileged people living in complete peace, simply cannot imagine how is it like when your neighbor country fucking with you. That it leads to forming extreme groups like that. Nazis (the true ones, not your american conservative) are extremely against Russian, because they made the Reich fall. It make sense, but you have to think...

 

[Thaedolus]

Could you explain why Azov is problematic TODAY without using any of the Russian propaganda? It's literally impossible. The best you can come up with will be that some soldiers might have a Nazi tattoo or something like that. But even that I'm not sure would be happening TODAY and even then it would be no different than any other army on the planet. There are literally thousands of Confederate tattoos in US army. I hate to keep resorting to whataboutism, but this topic was literally created by Russian propaganda and that's the only reason why it exists. And the fact that you still cannot get over it after Russa lied multiple times and killed countless civilians is really worrying.

I was going to say, the whole "but they have nazis!" angle kinda dies when the US looks in its own back yard. Yeah, we have nazis and hate groups too. As long as they keep their bullshit to themselves, they have a right to be idiots. We shouldn't level Alabama because of a few shit heads.

 

[akimbo009]

Could you explain why Azov is problematic TODAY without using any of the Russian propaganda? It's literally impossible. The best you can come up with will be that some soldiers might have a Nazi tattoo or something like that. But even that I'm not sure would be happening TODAY and even then it would be no different than any other army on the planet. There are literally thousands of Confederate tattoos in US army. I hate to keep resorting to whataboutism, but this topic was literally created by Russian propaganda and that's the only reason why it exists. And the fact that you still cannot get over it after Russa lied multiple times and killed countless civilians is really worrying.

Fuck the Confederate flag too btw - that's problematic as well.

And you know that Azov is more than just a few dudes with tattoos. Their actual insignia is ripped from Nazi Germany. It's not a minority problem in that specific battalion - it's a real problem within that battalion, but that battalion isn't the Ukrainian army - nor reflective of wider beliefs within its army or population. I am not amplifying the importance - just saying, Azov are neo-nazi's and that's problematic to say the least.

That said, UA isn't a "Nazi" country or even anything at ALL fascist. The whole, "Nazi" argument is bullshit. The problem Putin has is that people with a similar language, culture, and history can succeed at being a free and open democratic society. If they can do it, there is no excuse for Russia to be ruled by despotic authoritarians. It's a huge glaring issue that undermines Putin's arguments - it's evidence proof that they can and should do better.

I'm not really going to change here btw. I hate Putin, I hate Nazi's, I hate neo-Nazi's or people using their ideology, and not a fan of people using their imagery as part of their insignia or whatever. And no matter how much I may think Azov is a problem, it's not a justification for anything that is happening TODAY. I can still say, Fuck them, but right now they are on the right side of history and after this horrible war, and when Putin's head is a spike, we can have the right conversation about what needs to be done there. For now there is a more clear and present danger, and it's not a relatively small battalion full of shitheels with bad ideas and logos.

 

[akimbo009]

Meanwhile, a good write up about how badly Russia really is doing, and how inept the whole invasion has been.

How Putin Bungled His Invasion of Ukraine

Faulty assumptions, terrible logistics, and a ferocious Ukrainian resistance have turned Russian President Vladimir Putin’s Ukrainian adventure to ashes—for now.

foreignpolicy.com

Money quote, “I’m fucking tired from bandaging everybody and loading their fucking limbs,” one Russian soldier fighting close to Mariupol, Ukraine, said in a message intercepted by Ukraine’s Security Service. “Never in my life have I seen so many limbs. No hand, no leg, no fucking head.”

 

[haxan7]

Meanwhile, a good write up about how badly Russia really is doing, and how inept the whole invasion has been.

How Putin Bungled His Invasion of Ukraine

Faulty assumptions, terrible logistics, and a ferocious Ukrainian resistance have turned Russian President Vladimir Putin’s Ukrainian adventure to ashes—for now.

foreignpolicy.com

Money quote, “I’m fucking tired from bandaging everybody and loading their fucking limbs,” one Russian soldier fighting close to Mariupol, Ukraine, said in a message intercepted by Ukraine’s Security Service. “Never in my life have I seen so many limbs. No hand, no leg, no fucking head.”

Will be interesting to see if Putin's regime survives the war. If his people turn against him, I would assume they have the power to oust him. I guess his propaganda efforts are designed to counter that/damage control.

 

[ManaByte]

Fuck the Confederate flag too btw - that's problematic as well.

 

[Liljagare]

Fuck the Confederate flag too btw - that's problematic as well.

And you know that Azov is more than just a few dudes with tattoos. Their actual insignia is ripped from Nazi Germany. It's not a minority problem in that specific battalion - it's a real problem within that battalion, but that battalion isn't the Ukrainian army - nor reflective of wider beliefs within its army or population. I am not amplifying the importance - just saying, Azov are neo-nazi's and that's problematic to say the least.

That said, UA isn't a "Nazi" country or even anything at ALL fascist. The whole, "Nazi" argument is bullshit. The problem Putin has is that people with a similar language, culture, and history can succeed at being a free and open democratic society. If they can do it, there is no excuse for Russia to be ruled by despotic authoritarians. It's a huge glaring issue that undermines Putin's arguments - it's evidence proof that they can and should do better.

I'm not really going to change here btw. I hate Putin, I hate Nazi's, I hate neo-Nazi's or people using their ideology, and not a fan of people using their imagery as part of their insignia or whatever. And no matter how much I may think Azov is a problem, it's not a justification for anything that is happening TODAY. I can still say, Fuck them, but right now they are on the right side of history and after this horrible war, and when Putin's head is a spike, we can have the right conversation about what needs to be done there. For now there is a more clear and present danger, and it's not a relatively small battalion full of shitheels with bad ideas and logos.

Azov really need to be dropped from the narrative, its 300-2000 people in a nation with 44 million.

They have also been curtailed since 2014, and would have been disbanded alltogether this year by court order.

But I think the invasion will give them a new lease on life.

The challenge of extremism in the military is not going away without a new perspective

Researchers at the International Center for the Study of Violent Extremism identified reasons why violent extremists recruit active duty and former military to join their groups.

www.militarytimes.com

 

[EviLore]

I see the thread has been successfully derailed once again. Let’s get back on track.

 

[IDKFA]

The British newspaper, i, had an interview with a ex British soldier who traveled from his home in England to help the Ukrainians fight this Russian invasion.

This soldier is a veteran from Afghanistan and Iraq, but his opinion of the Russian's tactics wasn't complementary. From what he's seen so far, he's not even slightly impressed. In his opinion, the Russians are far less competent and organised than the Taliban.

What drew a smile from me was his recent story of having to take cover from a Russian bombardment. He explained how he was in the middle of a tea break and was just sitting down to a cup of tea before the Russians started bombarding the area. It wasn't so much the bombardment and risk to life that pissed him off the most, but the fact that the bombardment interrupted his cup of tea..........How quintessentially English.

 

[FunkMiller]

I see the thread has been successfully derailed once again. Let’s get back on track.

Funny, isn’t it? Almost like one specific thing keeps getting brought up to deliberately move the conversation away from the war atrocities the Russians are committing.

 

[Bragr]

From 2005. Starts on Putin from 06:50 and onwards.

 

[LimanimaPT]

I see the thread has been successfully derailed once again. Let’s get back on track.

Agreed.
Guys, please post videos of russian tanks being destroyed. I find it so satisfying...
Much better then useless discussions.

 

[NoLootBoxDev]

Let's go back with something I hope it's good:

Ukraine Is Doubling Its Army, While Russia Scrapes The Barrel For Reinforcements​

forbes.com/sites/...

 

[EviLore]

More attacks on civilians throughout Ukraine. Russian advances remain largely stalled.

President Biden spoke with Xi for two hours, and Biden promised that China would suffer consequences if they aid Russia.

Civilians outside Kiev who have recently escaped Russian control say that Russian soldiers have been going to their homes and asking for food.

 

[chromhound]

 

[Thaedolus]

From 2005. Starts on Putin from 06:50 and onwards.

Fuckin A.

 

[Gp1]

The problem is that some people tends to get trigger(ed) happy and jump conclusions without even read the argumentation. That never leads to a productive discussion.

Another two good analysis.




(Read the entire thread)

 

[EviLore]