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Russia begins Invasion of Ukraine

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Gp1

Member
From what I understand some latin american countries also arent exactly anti russia. Mexico too iirc.

Some Latin American countries governments =/= some latin American countries population.

There probably would be a massive demonstrations if Putin set foot in a country like Brazil, Chile or even Argentina and Mexico.
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Yep, sanction Latin American and throw the entire America's backyard right at china's lap more than already is. Awesome geopolitical strategy (See Argentina for example). China would love to have Mexico in their area of influence.

Anyway it's already past time for NATO to simply choose a western fighter with a solid supply chain (like the F-16 eg.), train Ukrainian personnel and provide then with it.

Easier and better than buying second hand old Migs that are still different of what the Ukrainians are flying.
 
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Hari Seldon

Member
NATO needs to up their support again. Since drones don’t have pilots, we should be flooding Ukraine with NATO piloted drones. There is no way to tell who is piloting them so just do it. (Assuming we are not already lol).

Also some giant Marshall Plan should be announced to rebuild Ukraine after the war. Boost Ukraine morale and show a bright future contrasted to the dismal state that Russia will be in for decades.
 

KyoZz

Tag, you're it.
The sad thing is that the people of Russia will pay the heavy price for Putin's actions in the next few years.
This bastard needs to be shut down Ben Laden style.
 

FunkMiller

Banned
The sad thing is that the people of Russia will pay the heavy price for Putin's actions in the next few years.

From the stuff I've seen and heard, like the intercepted comms chatter, verified reports, and video clips of social media engagements, I'd say a lot of Russians deserve to pay that heavy price - for what seems like an almost Nazi-like hatred of Ukrainians as being somehow subhuman.
 
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akimbo009

Gold Member
From the stuff I've seen and heard, like the intercepted comms chatter, verified reports, and video clips of social media engagements, I'd say a lot of Russians deserve to pay that heavy price - for what seems like an almost Nazi-like hatred of Ukrainians as being somehow subhuman.

Yeah, not to be callous but Russians themselves are up to their eyeballs right now with this shit. Not all, but enough that they are taking some responsibility at this point.
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Have the big tech shut down all cloud services in Russia? Last I checked, no.
Why would they? We want the Russian people to have access to outside sources of information and utilities. It the only way they might get some hint of the truth going on out in the real world outside of the misinformation bubble that Putin has tried to keep them in. We want them to have more access to the outside world not less.


We want Russia isolated diplomatically and economically. Not informationally.
 

nbcjr

Member
Why would they? We want the Russian people to have access to outside sources of information and utilities. It the only way they might get some hint of the truth going on out in the real world outside of the misinformation bubble that Putin has tried to keep them in. We want them to have more access to the outside world not less.


We want Russia isolated diplomatically and economically. Not informationally.
I am talking about about amazon shutting down AWS, Google shutting down workspace. This would deeply hurt their economy.
As for news, it is being reported that they are blocked already.
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
I am talking about about amazon shutting down AWS, Google shutting down workspace. This would deeply hurt their economy.
As for news, it is being reported that they are blocked already.
Oh sorry. I misunderstood. Yeah they need to cut that stuff asap.
 
Why would they? We want the Russian people to have access to outside sources of information and utilities.
Russia had such access for 20 years and it turned out to have very little effect, Putin was able to go full Stalin in weeks without any problems from the population.

The efforts of Russia to influence the West have been more successful then the other way around. This is not what the Free Unregulated Internet Solves The World Problems crowd predicted but here we are.
 
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Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Russia had such access for 20 years and it turned out to have very little effect, Putin was able to go full Stalin in weeks without any problems from the population.

The efforts of Russia to influence the West have been more successful then the other way around. This is not what the Free Unregulated Internet Solves The World Problems crowd predicted but here we are.
What would you rather happen?
 

FunkMiller

Banned
I am talking about about amazon shutting down AWS, Google shutting down workspace. This would deeply hurt their economy.
As for news, it is being reported that they are blocked already.

Amazon have blocked any new customers from Russia or Belarus for AWS. As NI said, cutting it off completely may stop information from the real world flowing to Russian people.

It's uncertain what the best course of action is with this to be honest. Viscerally, I want to see everything abandon Russia completely, but in some cases that may not be the wisest thing to do.
 

sinnergy

Member
From the stuff I've seen and heard, like the intercepted comms chatter, verified reports, and video clips of social media engagements, I'd say a lot of Russians deserve to pay that heavy price - for what seems like an almost Nazi-like hatred of Ukrainians as being somehow subhuman.
That’s what constant indoctrination does .. probably from the 50s onwards .. we can’t imagine as most of us are free world .. so if you don’t know better what’s your point of reference. It’s mostly to blame the government. But it’s very sad how far the soldiers will go.
 

FunkMiller

Banned
That’s what constant indoctrination does .. probably from the 50s onwards .. we can’t imagine as most of us are free world .. so if you don’t know better what’s your point of reference. It’s mostly to blame the government. But it’s very sad how far the soldiers will go.

I am absolutely prepared to accept that ordinary Russians have been fed propaganda constantly about the west, and that this can colour their opinions of us.

However, government anti-western and anti-Ukrainian propaganda does not fully account for the capacity to rape, torture and murder children. Or for parents to laugh and joke about stealing the possessions of those dead children with their barbaric sons. On a fundamental level, you need to regard those people as being less than human to do that. You need to see them not just as enemies, but as something that needs eradicating.

That requires a very deep level of hatred towards one's fellow man. Something is very, very wrong with the Russian psyche - the same way it was with the Germans and the Japanese. And it goes far beyond media manipulation and state propaganda.

Nobody should ever need a point of reference to say that it's not okay to butcher other human beings.
 
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sinnergy

Member
I am absolutely prepared to accept that ordinary Russians have been fed propaganda constantly about the west, and that this can colour their opinions of us.

However, government anti-western and anti-Ukrainian propaganda does not fully account for the capacity to rape, torture and murder children. Or for parents to laugh and joke about stealing the possessions of those dead children with their barbaric sons. On a fundamental level, you need to regard those people as being less than human to do that. You need to see them not just as enemies, but as something that needs eradicating.

That requires a very deep level of hatred towards one's fellow man. Something is very, very wrong with the Russian psyche - the same way it was with the Germans and the Japanese. And it goes far beyond media manipulation and state propaganda.

Nobody should ever need a point of reference to say that it's not okay to butcher other human beings.
That’s what indoctrination does.. I am not saying that they should be forgiven, I am against all this what’s happening. I just merely pointing out what indoctrination really does to people .

Like I said most free people can’t understand. As we are not teached like this .

That’s why Putin and the Russian government is to blame.
 

FunkMiller

Banned
That’s what indoctrination does.. I am not saying that they should be forgiven, I am against all this what’s happening. I just merely pointing out what indoctrination really does to people .

Like I said most free people can’t understand. As we are not teached like this .

That’s why Putin and the Russian government is to blame.

Yep. No argument there. I guess my point is that what kind of mentality do you have to have to fall for that indoctrination, and commit such crimes?
 
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akimbo009

Gold Member
Amazon have blocked any new customers from Russia or Belarus for AWS. As NI said, cutting it off completely may stop information from the real world flowing to Russian people.

It's uncertain what the best course of action is with this to be honest. Viscerally, I want to see everything abandon Russia completely, but in some cases that may not be the wisest thing to do.

Should also be noted that AWS doesn't have a regional endpoint in Russia. Never has.
 

FunkMiller

Banned
Should also be noted that AWS doesn't have a regional endpoint in Russia. Never has.

True. Amazon have had a long standing policy of not getting into bed with Russia as much as possible. There's not much Amazon in Russia, really.

And they have completely stopped all shipments to Russia and Belarus. In fact, the vast majority of the tech firms have cut Russia off totally. It's the sector I work in, so have been keeping a close eye. The response has been pretty acceptable.
 
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What would you rather happen?
Isolate Russia as much as possible while giving Ukraine all the weapons it needs to defeat them in the field. Do not give in to wishful thinking there is a serious opposition in Russia that just needs a little extended hand and easing of the pressure to rise up.

They should also be cut off from VPN providers that now continue to serve Russia claiming that this helps Russian dissidents but it helps the Russian state far more by making it easy for them to spread propaganda.
 
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Nikodemos

Member
Isolate Russia as much as possible while giving Ukraine all the weapons it needs to defeat them in the field. Do not give in to wishful thinking there is a serious opposition in Russia that just needs a little extended hand and easing of the pressure to rise up.
This. Any real opposition would only form if/when Russian forces are defeated. And it would quite likely not be liberal. It would be a case of "let them fight".

They should also be cut off from VPN providers that now continue to serve Russia claiming that this helps Russian dissidents but it helps the Russian state far more by making it easy for them to spread propaganda.
No, the VPNs should stay. Putin's regime uses troll farms in other countries, which wouldn't be impacted by internet restrictions in the first place.
If anything, those troll farms should be targeted with destruction-type hacking.
 

mxbison

Member
In case anyone still believes that this is not all Russians below is what Russians in Germany up to. Any one of these fuckers would happily commit atrocities if an opportunity presented itself.



Absolutely shameful.

How are these Z-bitches different than people parading through Berlin with Swastikas? They would get locked up too.

Schröder should be put in prison as a traitor.

Merkel atleast have her honors removed for complying.
 
No way Russia is going to withdraw just like that, I fear they are withdrawing for maybe allowing the usage of their heaviest weapons?

These russian scum actually have the audacity to call a UN security council meeting about Bucha. This is unbelievable.
 
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Absolutely shameful.

How are these Z-bitches different than people parading through Berlin with Swastikas? They would get locked up too.

Schröder should be put in prison as a traitor.

Merkel atleast have her honors removed for complying.
Always great seeing people advocating for the same shit Russia is doing at home. Imprison people protesting or supporting unwanted opinions or actions.
 
Always great seeing people advocating for the same shit Russia is doing at home. Imprison people protesting or supporting unwanted opinions or actions.
You also think people should be allowed to parade trough towns doing sieg heils with swastika flags?

There's a difference between being locked up just for protesting an invasion based on lies and/or speaking ill about your government, and getting locked up to openly supporting/celebrating regimes like Hitler's / Putin's who commit genocide. Doing that is illegal in Germany for a reason, at least in the case of Nazism. (I guess they learned their lesson after 2 WWs).
 
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Tams

Member

Heavy reading if you can stomach it.
The sad thing is that the people of Russia will pay the heavy price for Putin's actions in the next few years.
This bastard needs to be shut down Ben Laden style.
Unfortunately (or fortunately in terms of ease), it seems a lot of Russians are fine with Putin's actions.

At this point, the Russian people need to suffer. Sorry, but there's no other way. And quite a lot of them deserve it.

It's been brought up before that dogs that have eaten human flesh need to be put down. Now, I'm not advocating for the killing of Russian civilians (military in or involved in the invasion can die the nastiest deaths), but any Russian civilians supporting this invasion, even due to propaganda, need to suffer. And that requires some blanket suffering that affects innocent Russian civilians. Plus, maybe it'll spur them to actually do something substantive.
 
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Nikodemos

Member
I guess strange headache strange headache is busy trying to find (the non-existent) information to refute this.
Hey man, let's not do this. Indirect ad-homs are not cool.

But, anyway, regarding Merkel, while she can rightfully be lambasted as a fucking useless dumbass, she wasn't more of a fucking useless dumbass compared to some of her predecessors. I mean, just look at Gazprom Gerhard. Or the leaky KGB sieve that was Willy Brandt's government.

Her main streak of bad luck was that she was the typical fucking useless dumbass German chancellor, at a time when Germany and Europe needed a second Adenauer.
 
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Kimahri

Banned
Making russians suffer won't fix anything unless you can properly counter act the indoctrination and educate them properly at the same time.

Or nationalism could easily just grow even further. The common russian seeing themselves as victims unfairly punished by the "cruel an evil nazis of the west" or whatever other hogwash they tell each other, will just make that country worse.

We know what happened in Germany after WWI, we don't want a repeat.
 
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Tams

Member
Hey man, let's not do this. Indirect ad-homs are not cool.

But, anyway, regarding Merkel, while she can rightfully be lambasted as a fucking useless dumbass, she wasn't more of a fucking useless dumbass compared to some of her predecessors. I mean, just look at Gazprom Gerhard. Or the leaky KGB sieve that was Willy Brandt's government.

Her main streak of bad luck was that she was the typical fucking useless dumbass German chancellor, at a time when Germany and Europe needed a second Adenauer.
'Indirect ad-homs'? So calling people out for their positions? No, I won't stop as that needs to be done. And we've tried the long-route with them; all they do is reply with tangentially related walls of text.

And we're talking about a user who has been trying to downplay the missteps (if not failures) of major powers, and even downplay the presence of a sizeable pro-Putin rally in Germany. I don't think that's acceptable behaviour.

So no, you aren't going to stop me having a bit of fun poking someone, amongst all these horrors.
 
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sinnergy

Member
Making russians suffer won't fix anything unless you can properly counter act the indoctrination and educate them properly at the same time.

Or nationalism could easily just grow even further. The common russian seeing themselves as victims unfairly punished by the "cruel an evil nazis of the west" or whatever other hogwash they tell each other, will just make that country worse.

We know what happened in Germany after WWI, we don't want a repeat.
But what is the alternative..
 
Making russians suffer won't fix anything unless you can properly counter act the indoctrination and educate them properly at the same time.

Or nationalism could easily just grow even further. The common russian seeing themselves as victims unfairly punished by the "cruel an evil nazis of the west" or whatever other hogwash they tell each other, will just make that country worse.

We know what happened in Germany after WWI, we don't want a repeat.
What does it even mean? We are nowhere close to talking about reparations. No one is going to destroy half the Russia and ask them to rebuild Ukraine. Isolation on the other hand will work. Russians support this war because they blame the West for all of their problems anyway. At some point falling economy will start showing cracks and people will start seeing what the life without the West means.
 
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Hey man, let's not do this. Indirect ad-homs are not cool.

But, anyway, regarding Merkel, while she can rightfully be lambasted as a fucking useless dumbass, she wasn't more of a fucking useless dumbass compared to some of her predecessors. I mean, just look at Gazprom Gerhard. Or the leaky KGB sieve that was Willy Brandt's government.

Her main streak of bad luck was that she was the typical fucking useless dumbass German chancellor, at a time when Germany and Europe needed a second Adenauer.
I mean he literally made up a fact about Ukraine to make a point. I still can't get over it. End of 2000s was some of the best times for Ukraine until recession hit. It's easily verifiable.
 
Always great seeing people advocating for the same shit Russia is doing at home. Imprison people protesting or supporting unwanted opinions or actions.
We have to draw the line somewhere. At what point "protests" calling for murder is not OK? If you look at some of the video of these protesters they are close to crossing that line.
 

Kimahri

Banned
But what is the alternative..
I don't know. I leave that for smarter people than me with far more experience in these matters.
What does it even mean? We are nowhere close to talking about reparations. No one is going to destroy half the Russia and ask them to rebuild Ukraine. Isolation on the other hand will work. Russians support this war because they blame the West for all of their problems anyway. At some point falling economy will start showing cracks and people will start seeing what the life without the West means.
Of course we're not, but since we're already talking about punishment, I think it's important to keep a level head about it and assess possible consequences for everything.

We're all just talking, it's not like any of us are gonna play pivotal parts in this.

And I think you're being a bit naive about this. They might see it that way, sure, but they might just as well see the west as the culprit that did this to them. This is why the indoctrination is such a big problem. We haven't solved anything if russian hatred for the west grows and then we end up with another war in 10-20 or more years.

People who hate us won't see eye to eye with us through punishment.
 
I don't know. I leave that for smarter people than me with far more experience in these matters.

Of course we're not, but since we're already talking about punishment, I think it's important to keep a level head about it and assess possible consequences for everything.

We're all just talking, it's not like any of us are gonna play pivotal parts in this.

And I think you're being a bit naive about this. They might see it that way, sure, but they might just as well see the west as the culprit that did this to them. This is why the indoctrination is such a big problem. We haven't solved anything if russian hatred for the west grows and then we end up with another war in 10-20 or more years.

People who hate us won't see eye to eye with us through punishment.
Well currently only sanctions are being discussed. Don't get me wrong I also want Russia punished after it looses. But this will depend on when it happens and how severe the loss is. One thing I'm sure about is that Ukraine will not give up.
 

Kimahri

Banned
Well currently only sanctions are being discussed. Don't get me wrong I also want Russia punished after it looses. But this will depend on when it happens and how severe the loss is. One thing I'm sure about is that Ukraine will not give up.
Never. And definitely not after Russia has again showed their true colors.

I have no good idea about what to do about Russia, but it seems to me the while country might need similar dismantling to the soviet union.
 

FunkMiller

Banned
We know what happened in Germany after WWI, we don't want a repeat.

Don’t know if you’ve noticed, but the Russians are already at the point Nazi Germany was long after the conclusion of WW1. It’s already happened. It’s already repeated.

We had to destroy Germany to change it for the better.
 

Nikodemos

Member
If you want to feel visceral revulsion, read the translation of that RIA Novosti article. Not the old one, mistakenly posted on 26 February, where they gloated about the impotent West doing nothing about their lighting takeover of Ukraine.
The new one, where Putin explains what he means by "denazification".
 
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Kimahri

Banned
Don’t know if you’ve noticed, but the Russians are already at the point Nazi Germany was long after the conclusion of WW1. It’s already happened. It’s already repeated.

We had to destroy Germany to change it for the better.
You can drop the snark, I'm well aware. My point is that we need to find ways of stopping it, not fueling it.
 
If you want to feel visceral revulsion, read the translation of that RIA Novosti article. Not the old one, mistakenly posted on 26 February, where they gloated about the impotent West doing nothing about their lighting takeover of Ukraine.
The new one, where Putin explains what he means by "denazification".
I mean it's clearly genocide. They don't even try to hide it. The timing of that article was just insane.
 
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