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Russia begins Invasion of Ukraine
- Thread starter AfricanKing
- Start date
- News NSFW
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Bernd Lauert
Banned
Nah, they'll just sell to China or India.
Just saying "fuck the poor" is easy when you're under the impression that you won't suffer any consequences because you're not poor. That would be very shortsighted though. There's no better way to destabilize Europe than to make it suffer huge economic downfalls. Putin would certainly be happy.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Russia is the one invading other countries, but it's the USA/NATO that brought this war in Ukraine? The USA does have shitty imperialist foreign policy, but don't forget who's actively doing the illegal offensive war here. Huge difference. Don't make false equivalences.
Tams
Member
Their point was that most people do not know who Attlee was, even many British people. Ironically, many of those people love the NHS.
Churchill on the other hand, is very well known. Perhaps increasingly less so with time, but his presence is still giant. And it's he who has one of the most prominent statues in the whole of the UK. You get terms like 'Churchillian', but never 'Attleean'. Sadly, war is just more glamourous (hypocritically even I glamourise it; I love war games and military stuff). I'd say even Profumo is more well known than Attlee, as that was quite literally sexy.
I understand how that could hard to believe as I've studied post-war politics all the way up to Blair. But not even half a percent of British people will have. You can't expect them to know that much.
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bellome
Member
I am not pro russian at all.The starting point of a better society is ignoring pro-Russian fools like you
You are very mistaken, i actually despise their government and foreign policy.
But i see you don't want a discussion, you just want to be told you are right.
You are acting like Putin, you know?
funkygunther
Banned
"fuck the poor" is always down to a government's policy, so you should have a chat with them if you think they're pushing those costs onto the worst off in society
FunkMiller
Banned
They get 220 million dollars a day from Germany alone. A day.
And they’re slaughtering thousands of people a day.
It would make a difference. It absolutely would.
And again, forget what i say… listen to Zelensky and other EU nations.
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Tams
Member
Not a strong enough apology. That's the sort of apology you make if you put a used teaspoon back into the sugar jar (or whatever the German equivalent is)./cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/TDDV244JDJPKLKJGC3GQEPO3JI.jpg)
I got Putin wrong, says chastened German President
German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier, long an advocate of Western rapprochement with Russia, expressed regret for his earlier stance, saying his years of support for the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline had been a clear mistake.www.reuters.com
I know Germans can be a bit lacking in the emotion department, but that's not good enough.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
It's almost impossible to even calculate how much an immediate embargo would cost. But it's safe to say that the government likely can't cover that cost. The money printers are already running at full speed.
mxbison
Member
The only reason Russia has any issues with countries like Ukraine joining NATO is because it would stop them from being able to invade these countries....
"Why are you forcing me to hit you?"
bellome
Member
I abosultey agree with you, in fact i am not saying USA started the war.
I am saying USA and its NATO allies set the condition for this war to be started by Russia.
There is not a good and a bad side here, i would say that there is a bad and a worse side. Both sides contributed to this situation for their own interests, with one side (the Russian) obviously taking this too far in the shitshow.
Please look at the recent history in that region, do not attack me for pointing out that reality is not so easy as it pictured with a good and a bad side.
This mindset will not help reaching out a compromise with crazy russians. Because we have to find a new international balance, nobody wants an escalation of this shit.
FunkMiller
Banned
Please detail how NATO allowing independent, sovereign nations to voluntarily join up to its charter caused this war.
Try to do it without using Russian propaganda lines about how it threatens their country.
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bellome
Member
What do you think it will happen tomorrow is Mexico wakes up in love with Russia?
Every imperialist country (like USA and Russia) aims to defend and increase its power, and this is exactly what happened in Ukraine in the latest years, from both sides.
Only that this time the losing side decided to go full shit to solve the situation, this is what happens when you take decision looking only at your own yard with a strict mind.
FunkMiller
Banned
Ah yes… the old ‘Ukraine has zero agency’ based argument, used by pro-Russian trolls everywhere.
Ukraine actively wanted to join NATO. Why do you think that was?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
If that's the case, don't say things like the USA/NATO brought the war in Ukraine.
No they didn't. Russia's belligerent imperialist government set the condition for this war to be started because, oh I dunno, they started it.
Saying that both sides contributed to this situation obfuscates just how much responsibility one side bears for all of this death and suffering. It's no contest. Russia has no right to threaten other countries into compliance, when Russia's threatening of them makes them want to join defensive alliances even more. Russia brought this on themselves.
I'm not attacking you. I'm pointing out that your framing of the situation is flawed.
bellome
Member
Please stop insulting me and categorizing me as spreader of russian propaganda only because i try to tell others to inform better about the history of this war, to understand the reasons underneath it and not just yelling "Putin is a mad horse". Surely he is, but if you want to understand better the situation you can not limit your reasonings to this.
I am European, i love my country, i am glad that my country stands with USA.
That being said, i reckon we made in the past some mistakes, as an individual country and as a USA ally, in our foreign politics.
Now our "opponent" is making a HUGE mistake by doing this war. Understanding that our past actions may have led Putin to this shit is the only way to start thinking about a peaceful joint solution.
Otherwise the only real solution is going to full war with Russia (and sadly I see that someone here seems to wish this).
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Wildebeest
Member
Russia are not "increasing their power" at all. This is an insane move by an unhinged narcissist who ran a country with a promising future into the ground while enriching himself. He now wants to "leave a legacy" before he dies, which is even worse than being a thieving gangster who wants to build himself palaces. I feel like you are dignifying what is happening too much because you want to live in a world that is saner than it is.
strange headache
Banned
I got Putin wrong, says chastened German President
German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier, long an advocate of Western rapprochement with Russia, expressed regret for his earlier stance, saying his years of support for the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline had been a clear mistake.
The European peace project was always about ensuring peace through socio-economic cooperation and mutual interdependence. That is how the EU managed to bond eastern and western Europe together. Strengthening these bonds is the reason why Russia remains pretty much isolated and without much support. That is also the reason why I want Ukraine to join the EU, even if the conditions for membership are not fulfilled.
Europe's cooperation with Russia was always in the hope that the same might happen here too. I mean, which country has an active interest in waging war against their own clients? Considering how Russia's economy is going down the drain right now, the war they started will cost them much more than they might be willing to admit. If you want to guarantee peace, you must make war the more costly option.
Also, Europe has no army of its own and most western European countries were in a constant process of disarmament. How else can you reinforce peace other than through economic cooperation? Had Steinmeier and Merkel known that Putin would be capable of these atrocities, I'm sure they would never have pursued this foreign policy with Russia.
The refusal to let Ukraine join NATO was purely to appease Russia and who knows, had their membership not been refused maybe Russia would have invaded much sooner.
In hindsight peaceful co-existence through compromise turned out to be a futile hope. Certainly not as long as Putin is in charge. That still does not change the fact the Europe's best hope for peace remains mutual cooperation and economic interdependency.
There is plenty of analysis available of what would happen if Germany would spontaneously cut itself off from Russian gas imports. This is not only a question about "being poorer" but about severely crippling your own basic supply facilities to the point of not even having basic goods anymore. Germany would essentially collapse (socially and economically) and trigger a recession that would endanger all of the European Union. We would basically hand Putin the EU on a silver platter and weaken one of the main things that is keeping Russia contained right now.
Here's the breakdown:
As you can see, the production of food, basic building materials and chemistry products (including medicine) would basically cease to function.
How is that in the interest of Ukraine? Or are we forgetting that after the war, there will be the question of rebuilding Ukraine. How are we supposed to achieve that if the EU lies in shambles? This is not a mere question of turning your thermostat down a notch or two. Already European countries are suffering major recession due to inflation, rising energy prices and corona restrictions.
For sure, in hindsight, there's a lot to criticize and both Germany and the EU are in the process of analyzing these faults. But this thread is about to devolve into simplistic political tribalism with some people taking this humanitarian crisis as a pretext to air their personal grievances with the EU. Criticize all you want, but lets maybe not put emotion above what is reasonable.
What Russia is doing right now is beyond reason and against their own best interests. Economic cooperation would have been much better in the long term. Our only fault was to assume that Putin would be a rational actor. Let's not forget, Putin is the one invading Ukraine and the war atrocities are committed in his name and his name only.
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Azurro
Banned
bellome
it's not that it's reductionist to say "Russia bad, NATO good", but it is only Russia's own delusions that brought Nato against them. Russia's and Putin's fantasies include the rebuilding of the "glorious" USSR and imperialist Russia. Obviously the baltics and central/eastern european countries object to their independence and freedom being taken retaken once more by an imperialist Russia, not to mention the economic boom a lot of former Eastern European countries have seen from aligning themselves with the west.Ukraine say this, saw a meddling and beligerent Russia and sought to join Nato to defend itself from Putin's delusions. Russia brought NATO to their doorstep, what you preach
bellome
is appeasement to a dictator, whatever his reasons may be (and I agree it's important to understand them), it doesn't give them the right to slaughter men, women and children because of Putin's nostalgia and Russia's thug political culture.
GymWolf
Member
What can cause an injury like the second pic?? Directly being shot with some small explosive round?NSFW more russia brutality in bucha. Women underwear scatered everywhere on streets.
Dont open if youre mentally not ready
Jesus what a massacre...
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Do you recognize that this argument is similar to victim blaming?
Do you acknowledge that doing it your way might not prevent war, and only delay it, and cause it to be worse in the future?
bellome
Member
Amen to this.
Ukraine say this, saw a meddling and beligerent Russia and sought to join Nato to defend itself from Putin's delusions. Russia brought NATO to their doorstep, what you preach
But i think we must try and find a peaceful solution to this, and to do this we need to understand first our past mistakes in managing our relations with Russia. It is not a matter of "who makes the biggest mistake is wrong". Russia is more wrong than NATO, but both are wrong, and both have to admit their own mistakes to find a new point of balance and avoid full scale war.
Stated that we are dealing with a mad dictator, do we want to find a mediation to reach the ceasefire?
If yes, it is needed for us to reckon our mistakes to push Russian to a real mediation table. If not, the only way to solve this is by moving war to them and destroying Putins' regime.
But i fear we are already to deep into this confrontation to see a step back from both sides.
FunkMiller
Banned
Please stop insulting me and categorizing me as spreader of russian propaganda only because i try to tell others to inform better about the history of this war, to understand the reasons underneath it and not just yelling "Putin is a mad horse". Surely he is, but if you want to understand better the situation you can not limit your reasonings to this.
I am European, i love my country, i am glad that my country stands with USA.
That being said, i reckon we made in the past some mistakes, as an individual country and as a USA ally, in our foreign politics.
Now our "opponent" is making a HUGE mistake by doing this war. Understanding that our past actions may have led Putin to this shit is the only way to start thinking about a peaceful joint solution.
Otherwise the only real solution is going to full war with Russia (and sadly I see that someone here seems to wish this).
You avoided my question, so I will repeat:
Please detail how NATO allowing independent, sovereign nations to voluntarily join up to its charter led to this war starting.
What has NATO done wrong in this matter? What mistakes has NATO made?
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Tams
Member
Hummm... doesn't seem to have worked.
Do you know what does (if we're going with airy-fairy terms)? Having a big stick and being willing to use it.
chromhound
Member
Countries are run by idiots. All they see is money
FunkMiller
Banned
The European peace project was always about ensuring peace through socio-economic cooperation and mutual interdependence. That is how the EU managed to bond eastern and western Europe together. Strengthening these bonds is the reason why Russia remains pretty much isolated and without much support. That is also the reason why I want Ukraine to join the EU, even if the conditions for membership are not fulfilled.
Europe's cooperation with Russia was always in the hope that the same might happen here too. I mean, which country has an active interest in waging war against their own clients? Considering how Russia's economy is going down the drain right now, the war they started will cost them much more than they might be willing to admit. If you want to guarantee peace, you must make war the more costly option.
Also, Europe has no army of its own and most western European countries were in a constant process of disarmament. How else can you reinforce peace other than through economic cooperation? Had Steinmeier and Merkel known that Putin would be capable of these atrocities, I'm sure they would never have pursued this foreign policy with Russia.
The refusal to let Ukraine join NATO was purely to appease Russia and who knows, had their membership not been refused maybe Russia would have invaded much sooner.
In hindsight peaceful co-existence through compromise turned out to be a futile hope. Certainly not as long as Putin is in charge. That still does not change the fact the Europe's best hope for peace remains mutual cooperation and economic interdependency.
There is plenty of analysis available of what would happen if Germany would spontaneously cut itself off from Russian gas imports. This is not only a question about "being poorer" but about severely crippling your own basic supply facilities to the point of not even having basic goods anymore. Germany would essentially collapse (socially and economically) and trigger a recession that would endanger all of the European Union. We would basically hand Putin the EU on a silver platter and weaken one of the main things that is keeping Russia contained right now.
Here's the breakdown:
As you can see, the production of food, basic building materials and chemistry products (including medicine) would basically cease to function.
How is that in the interest of Ukraine? Or are we forgetting that after the war, there will be the question of rebuilding Ukraine. How are we supposed to achieve that if the EU lies in shambles? This is not a mere question of turning your thermostat down a notch or two. Already European countries are suffering major recession due to inflation, rising energy prices and corona restrictions.
For sure, in hindsight, there's a lot to criticize and both Germany and the EU are in the process of analyzing these faults. But this thread is about to devolve into simplistic political tribalism with some people taking this humanitarian crisis as a pretext to air their personal grievances with the EU. Criticize all you want, but lets maybe not put emotion above what is reasonable.
What Russia is doing right now is beyond reason and against their own best interests. Economic cooperation would have been much better in the long term. Our only fault was to assume that Putin would be a rational actor. Let's not forget, Putin is the one invading Ukraine and the war atrocities are committed in his name and his name only.
All of this sounds very reasonable, and thank you for it… but I would again ask you and others to listen to what Zelensky and the other Baltic states are saying about the EU’s past and current reaction to this invasion. They do not concur with your analysis, and I have to listen to their opinions and thoughts more than others, for very obvious reasons. They believe, as member states, and the victim of this invasion, that Europe can cope with the hardships of being cut off from Putin’s gas. Some European economists think the same. Surely it is a course that must be considered to stop the atrocities continuing?
Also, you say this:
“The refusal to let Ukraine join NATO was purely to appease Russia and who knows, had their membership not been refused maybe Russia would have invaded much sooner.”
If Ukraine had been in NATO there‘s no way Putin would have invaded.
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kurisu_1974
Banned
I've been wondering where UNPROFOR is in all this; are they not alowed to try and keep peace and help civilians because of the Russian veto? If so, I don't see much value in the existance of the UN at all...
(not that UNPROFOR is so great, I mean we all remember Bosnia and Rwanda...)
(not that UNPROFOR is so great, I mean we all remember Bosnia and Rwanda...)
mxbison
Member
Nobody tried to force Ukraine into NATO.
Ukraine wanted to join so they are safe from a russian invasion. They weren't allowed to join and are now being invaded by Russia. The main demand from Russia is that Ukraine never joins NATO, so they can't be safe from future invasions...
Resident_UA
Member
This is like a third time where you said that you are not Russian which is telling on its own. Keep appeasing Russia and see how it works out for you.
Bragr
Banned
And what are they supposed to see? and who but these "idiots" are supposed to govern?
Bragr
Banned
Warriors fight warriors, cowards fight civilians.
What protects you from turning into an animal of hate in a warzone and killing civilians is strict and harsh doctrines, enforced by no-tolerance rules and social norms shared by everyone around you. These russians in bocha lacked that, they are cowards and fools driven by hate and allowed to act like animals by their leaders.
What protects you from turning into an animal of hate in a warzone and killing civilians is strict and harsh doctrines, enforced by no-tolerance rules and social norms shared by everyone around you. These russians in bocha lacked that, they are cowards and fools driven by hate and allowed to act like animals by their leaders.
Azurro
Banned
The past mistakes dealing with Russia was appeasement of Putin and Russia. Harsh sanctions and punishments should have been levied on Russia many, many years ago, starting with Russia's invasion of Crimea.
Russia's political culture only understands force, not anything else, not economics, not culture, not understanding, not mutual development. Russia's government is a kleptocratic thug as an institution and you only stop them with big sticks that you are willing to use.
Besides, what's with your narratives of "mistakes NATO did"? What exactly was a mistake about NATO? Letting the baltics and central and eastern European countries join? Why would that be a mistake? To appease Russia to let them overtake them more easily?
I'm beginning to believe you have ulterior motives, tovarish.
Resident_UA
Member
Oh. You are back. Still making up things about Ukraine? You never answered my question about state of Ukraine in 2008. You literally made up facts about Ukraine and then just went quiet. It's level of bullshit I haven't seen even from Russian propaganda.The European peace project was always about ensuring peace through socio-economic cooperation and mutual interdependence. That is how the EU managed to bond eastern and western Europe together. Strengthening these bonds is the reason why Russia remains pretty much isolated and without much support. That is also the reason why I want Ukraine to join the EU, even if the conditions for membership are not fulfilled.
Europe's cooperation with Russia was always in the hope that the same might happen here too. I mean, which country has an active interest in waging war against their own clients? Considering how Russia's economy is going down the drain right now, the war they started will cost them much more than they might be willing to admit. If you want to guarantee peace, you must make war the more costly option.
Also, Europe has no army of its own and most western European countries were in a constant process of disarmament. How else can you reinforce peace other than through economic cooperation? Had Steinmeier and Merkel known that Putin would be capable of these atrocities, I'm sure they would never have pursued this foreign policy with Russia.
The refusal to let Ukraine join NATO was purely to appease Russia and who knows, had their membership not been refused maybe Russia would have invaded much sooner.
In hindsight peaceful co-existence through compromise turned out to be a futile hope. Certainly not as long as Putin is in charge. That still does not change the fact the Europe's best hope for peace remains mutual cooperation and economic interdependency.
There is plenty of analysis available of what would happen if Germany would spontaneously cut itself off from Russian gas imports. This is not only a question about "being poorer" but about severely crippling your own basic supply facilities to the point of not even having basic goods anymore. Germany would essentially collapse (socially and economically) and trigger a recession that would endanger all of the European Union. We would basically hand Putin the EU on a silver platter and weaken one of the main things that is keeping Russia contained right now.
Here's the breakdown:
As you can see, the production of food, basic building materials and chemistry products (including medicine) would basically cease to function.
How is that in the interest of Ukraine? Or are we forgetting that after the war, there will be the question of rebuilding Ukraine. How are we supposed to achieve that if the EU lies in shambles? This is not a mere question of turning your thermostat down a notch or two. Already European countries are suffering major recession due to inflation, rising energy prices and corona restrictions.
For sure, in hindsight, there's a lot to criticize and both Germany and the EU are in the process of analyzing these faults. But this thread is about to devolve into simplistic political tribalism with some people taking this humanitarian crisis as a pretext to air their personal grievances with the EU. Criticize all you want, but lets maybe not put emotion above what is reasonable.
What Russia is doing right now is beyond reason and against their own best interests. Economic cooperation would have been much better in the long term. Our only fault was to assume that Putin would be a rational actor. Let's not forget, Putin is the one invading Ukraine and the war atrocities are committed in his name and his name only.
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Resident_UA
Member
This bullshit
Nikodemos
Member
There is a chance strange headache is misremembering Russia's gas bullshit towards Ukraine (which actually happened repeatedly between 2005 and 2008) as "internal unrest" in Ukraine.
I have no idea what your typical German rag wrote about it (don't know German), but it likely wasn't too sympathetic to Ukraine (because muh natgas).
Also, IIRC, there were some issues caused by Russian agitationists in Donbas, at some point, due to some industrial workers' dispute (which they tried to weaponize).
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NoLootBoxDev
Member
Such a beautiful shot!!!
Resident_UA
Member
I mean no matter how you spin it it's just made up bullshit. It's especially infuriating because right before recession hit was some of the most prosperous time for Ukraine. So not only it's made up to fit his narrative it's actually opposite of the truth.
Nikodemos
Member
Stay safe, stay low, don't stand out.
strange headache
Banned
Zelenksy is merely trying to rally his troops and using any rhetorical means to mobilize for help, can't fault him for that. From that perspective, nobody is helping enough right now or we would already be in open and direct military conflict with Russia. What he said certainly hit a nerve, partially for good reason, but let's not drag him into this discussion.
Nobody_Important
already said everything there is to say about why Zelenksy is saying what he is saying.I still do not think establishing economic cooperation and bilateral relations are a mistake, that his how international peace is created and maintained. In many cases it has fostered strong bonds between nations. It is Russia's fault for breaking that trust, not the EU's or Germany's. F*ck Schroeder though, that corrupt bumhole sold his soul and his country to eat himself rich on Russian money. He's not the only one though, Russia has bought many high functionaries from different countries over the years, especially from socialist parties. Now that they have shown their true face, we sadly know why...
You are talking about Lithuania who only imported about 8% of gas from Russia... I've already explained in this thread why transitioning away from Russian gas was much easier for them. They still needed 7 years to do it, for a population of 2mio. people. Not quite the same ballpark as Germany who is planning to do all of this in half the time and 80mio. inhabitants.
I certainly hope we can put further sanctions on Russia, but without playing into their hand or creating even more human misery. If you have any good sources on how Europe and especially Germany can cope with a sudden cut from gas, let us know. I'll be certainly looking into it. So far I have not heard from any economists who think this would be possible without creating a major collapse.
Germany, France, Spain and Italy vetoed a proposal for membership application. Had Ukraine actually a real chance at gaining map status, Putin probably would have reacted in the same way as he is doing right now. Fact is, neither Germany, nor the EU, nor the Americans were aware of Putin's true end goal at that time.
I was talking about the orange revolution and the resulting Euromaidan civil clashes which clearly showed that Ukraine was not a stable democracy due to Russia's interference.
So your suggestion would be to put the world into an ever increasing spiral of military rearmament? Bellum omnium contra omnes.
Threatening other nations with the bigger stick is certainly not how you establish peace. It's the best and shortest way to the nightmarish Hobbesian state of perpetual mistrust and fear of retaliation.
I'm sorry, but if you truly believe this, I'm not surprised that we find so little common ground in this discussion.
That is not the world I want to live in, because that is exactly how Putin thinks!
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AJUMP23
Parody of actual AJUMP23
I am glad they admitted the mistake...now how do they begin to fix it. It is also a mistake that cannot be easily corrected.I got Putin wrong, says chastened German President
German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier, long an advocate of Western rapprochement with Russia, expressed regret for his earlier stance, saying his years of support for the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline had been a clear mistake.
Tams
Member
Your naivety is off the charts. I mean, it's fully expected from someone very invested in 'the European project', but still. It's also almost always the likes of you who write volumes, but ultimately provide no solutions.
That is, unfortunately, reality. You don't need the biggest stick, but you need a stick big enough that it will stop aggression. It doesn't matter what world you want to live in; you live in this one. One where violence is endemic. And as long as people like Putin remain in positions of power, the threat of atrocities like this are always going to be there. People think that big sticks will get what they want, so to stop that you need a big stick.*
To think otherwise is just a roundabout way of denying what is happening in front your very eyes. And yes, you can say that economic sanctions will eventually end the Russian invasion. But that won't stop the atrocities that happen until then, won't make up for those atrocities, and won't stop Russia trying again if their economy recovers enough.
*I'm sticking this at the end, as it's just an analogy.
I got bullied at school. Not the worst, but not good. I tried to appease the bullies. I tried to humour the bullies. I was hardly some skeletal being either (seat 2 in a quad for rowing i.e. the muscle). Teachers tried to help and even punished them somewhat. But ultimately, they always went back to bullying me in a few weeks or months. This went on for years. It didn't end until one day I got one in a headlock and threatened to smash his head repeatedly into a wall that the bullying stopped permanently. It essentially required me to show that I had a 'big stick' and that I was clearly prepared to use it.
Oh, and I studied Latin at school for years. Your selected quote there is fallacious.
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Nikodemos
Member
But that's pretty much what Carter (though his efforts weren't particularly noted) and Reagan did. They ballooned military spending in order to pull the USSR into a new arms race.
The USSR went '*hrurnk*', let out a massive shart, and went "ayo hol' up, we wuz jes kiddin". Proving that arms races do work, when you have a shitfuckton more money and industrial capacity than your opponent.
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Resident_UA
Member
I know you probably blocked me at this point. But in case you didn't. Any news on those unrests in Ukraine in 2008? Still waiting for clarification. Thanks!Zelenksy is merely trying to rally his troops and using any rhetorical means to mobilize for help, can't fault him for that. From that perspective, nobody is helping enough right now or we would already be in open and direct military conflict with Russia. What he said certainly hit a nerve, partially for good reason, but let's not drag him into this discussion.
I still do not think establishing economic cooperation and bilateral relations are a mistake, that his how international peace is created and maintained. In many cases it has fostered strong bonds between nations. It is Russia's fault for breaking that trust, not the EU's or Germany's. F*ck Schroeder though, that corrupt bumhole sold his soul and his country to eat himself rich on Russian money. He's not the only one though, Russia has bought many high functionaries from different countries over the years, especially from socialist parties. Now that they have shown their true face, we sadly know why...
You are talking about Lithuania who only imported about 8% of gas from Russia... I've already explained in this thread why transitioning away from Russian gas was much easier for them. They still needed 7 years to do it, for a population of 2mio. people. Not quite the same ballpark as Germany who is planning to do all of this in half the time and 80mio. inhabitants.
I certainly hope we can put further sanctions on Russia, but without playing into their hand or creating even more human misery. If you have any good sources on how Europe and especially Germany can cope with a sudden cut from gas, let us know. I'll be certainly looking into it. So far I have not heard from any economists who think this would be possible without creating a major collapse.
Germany, France, Spain and Italy vetoed a proposal for membership application. Had Ukraine actually a real chance at gaining map status, Putin probably would have reacted in the same way as he is doing right now. Fact is, neither Germany, nor the EU, nor the Americans were aware of Putin's true end goal at that time.
I was talking about the orange revolution and the resulting Euromaidan civil clashes which clearly showed that Ukraine was not a stable democracy due to Russia's interference.
So your suggestion would be to put the world into an ever increasing spiral of military rearmament? Bellum omnium contra omnes.
Threatening other nations with the bigger stick is certainly not how you establish peace. It's the best and shortest way to the nightmarish Hobbesian state of perpetual mistrust and fear of retaliation.
I'm sorry, but if you truly believe this, I'm not surprised that we find so little common ground in this discussion.
That is not the world I want to live in, because that is exactly how Putin thinks!
Resident_UA
Member
That's nowhere close to 2008!
strange headache
Banned
This is exactly how Putin views the world and what gives him his internal validation to commit these atrocities. Russia wants a bigger stick, plain an simple.
You're the one who is naïve. History has shown that increasing military rearmament has only led to ever increasing conflict readiness. During the Cold War it was either global annihilation or mutual disarmament. Global trade, supranational cooperation and international interdependence are the things that gave rise to NATO and the EU in the first place. You know, the very things that are keeping Russia at bay for all the other member states in eastern Europe.
What?
The quote isn't meant to test your Latin skills. You're obviously oblivious to the meaning and context of that quote, but I'm sure you can google it for yourself.
I'm sorry that is not how I remember the Cold War. Also, you guys need to look up political neo-realism vs. idealism
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Resident_UA
Member
You literally need to look up Ukraine before posting on this thread. You keep getting basic facts wrong. You are picking, choosing, and inventing facts to support obviously wrong decisions.
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