MisterFalcon
Member
Wow, lots of vatniks popping up suddenly.
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Russia begins Invasion of Ukraine
- Thread starter AfricanKing
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Bernd Lauert
Banned
The question is, what are the alternatives? Ukraine becoming Syria 2.0?
They always use some justification. Some justifications are comically stupid ("we need to purge nazis"), others make more sense to the Russian public ("we have to protect Russia since east and south Ukraine is now Russia"). The more sound the justifications seem, the more Putin can escalate.
Yes, I personally think it will make a difference. I also don't really agree with your assessment that they're being wiped out.
Uh huh. Though your response sidesteps the important part. Even a trained military cannot fight a war effectively if they aren’t equipped to achieve victory. Russia does not have the ability to equip those 300K.
Not a comparison. An example of just one of numerous moments in history where large numbers amounted to little. Sorry this isn’t a console war, you’re not going to weaseldick my posts into something they’re not so you can pretend you’re right for internet likes.
nemiroff
Gold Member
You're cute, and hilarious to think we'd swallow this hook line and sinker. How far into your daily troll farm quota are you?
Bernd Lauert
Banned
I disagree with bolded. Might just take longer than expected because Russia is a shithole.
Weird example, then.
Disagree, why? Define longer.
We’ve known back in August, and earlier to be frank, that supplies are constrained for Russia.
Russia’s Military Grows Afraid of the Long War
Voices within the Russian military community are beginning to express anxiety about the future course of the war against Ukraine.
Why is it weird? It reinforces the point: quantity on its own amounts to jackshit. So you bringing up the 300K number like it’s meaningful is comedy. And if anything, it makes things worse for war support in the country, as support for the military operation and direct participation are two entirely different things.
Sociologists loyal to the Kremlin share the doubts of military experts. “The loyalist and middle-class segments of society, which make up the absolute majority of Russian citizens,” may have supported the so-called “special operation” (the all-out invasion of February 24) in the beginning, but as the hostilities drag on with no end in sight, they are becoming fatigued. Ordinary people increasingly just want to “hide their heads in the sand” and take care of their own “pockets and well-being,” Yaroslav Ignatovsky, head of the Politgen analytical center, wrote on Telegram. According to a sociological surveypublished in August, despite formal support for the war, 62% of men are not ready to take part in it.
Russia's Multiplying War Problems
On August 25, Vladimir Putin ordered an increase in service personnel of 137,000 from 2023, bringing the size of the army to 1.15 million.
Ah, there it is. GIFs. Incredible.
You really ought to get back to the console discussion forum where you can resume the corporate fellatio and trading of GIF gotchas. The grown-ups are talking.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
The puppet government?
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
We were warned Russia would be ramping up its infowar operations. Maybe not necessarily vatniks, just people getting their info from the wrong places - which you can tell, because there’s people here arguing that the 300k untrained, unequipped drunks are going to make a difference or that Kyiv is a puppet government.
captainnapalm
Member
I don't know if I should bite on these accounts trying to insinuate I'm a fake person. I see this on social media sometimes, and funnily enough, it always makes me think the people making the accusations are the fakers.
But surely people realise this is a proxy war. The US has had its tentacles firmly in Ukraine since the western-backed uprising in 2014. There is nothing like democracy there. They outlawed the biggest opposition parties.
Zelensky's government is totally controlled by pro-Western oligarchs in Ukraine, who opened the country up to western politicians and corporations to cash in after 2014. Corruption is rife - remember noted crackhead Hunter Biden sitting on the board of a Ukrainian gas company?
Zelensky is a former entertainer. His government is made up of people who worked on his comedy show. This is the most puppet-like government ever to puppet.
Zelensky is now saying Ukraine will not negotiate with Russia unless someone other than Putin is in charge. He's essentially ruling out any chance of peace or negotiation.
But surely people realise this is a proxy war. The US has had its tentacles firmly in Ukraine since the western-backed uprising in 2014. There is nothing like democracy there. They outlawed the biggest opposition parties.
Zelensky's government is totally controlled by pro-Western oligarchs in Ukraine, who opened the country up to western politicians and corporations to cash in after 2014. Corruption is rife - remember noted crackhead Hunter Biden sitting on the board of a Ukrainian gas company?
Zelensky is a former entertainer. His government is made up of people who worked on his comedy show. This is the most puppet-like government ever to puppet.
Zelensky is now saying Ukraine will not negotiate with Russia unless someone other than Putin is in charge. He's essentially ruling out any chance of peace or negotiation.
Life and death? Russia was chugging along just fine with its massive landmasses and resources. Life and death for Putin maybe. The absolutely decrepit state of Russia's military shows that its current path doesn't even achieve its own stated objectives. Russia would actually develop if its government focused the effort it expends chasing imperial glory on reforms and internal development.
ItsGreat
Member
Are you categorically saying that nothing
captainnapalm
is saying is true?The British, the US and others have always had their fingers on the strings of other countries business.
Places like Cyprus in the 1960s. Or the Chile in the 1970s. Lots and people all over the world suffered because of support from foreign governments who have ulterior motives.
It's sad fact and also one that is very true.
In my opinion, I don't think 'they' know what to do at the moment. I don't think they have a puppet in place to replace Putin. I also think a puppet leader that pleases the whole world is going to be a hard thing to find.
I also wonder if they don't want to risk selling off Russia on the cheap like they did in the early 1990s. Causing the cycle to repeat itself.
I wish it would end. I wish Zelensky could roll into Moscow and put an end to it. But it isn't going to happen.
nemiroff
Gold Member
Funnily enough that what ruzzians call any government not inserted and controlled by ruzzia. As someone with much of his life invested in Ukraine, I can safely confirm that Zelenskyy was legitimately and democratically chosen as Ukraine's leader - But not without any criticism attached, if you talk to Ukrainians they'll tell you exactly what they like and don't like about their leaders and why they elected them - Which is exactly how a democracy should work.
Another interesting tidbit is that Ukrainians has been openly criticizing (sick and tired of) the ruzzian-inherited corruption in their country for decades. The last 15 years Ukraine's society has completely transformed for the better, fighting corruption has been an important part of this, and they've for the most part been succeeding past everyone's expectations. Good puppeteering if you ask me..
Are you categorically saying that nothing
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. He's talking out of his dirty asshole without any doubt whatsofucking ever, parroting at best. You need to realize that Ukrainians aren't dumb sheep. No Ukrainians "loved" Zelenskyy unconditionally. Like all of us they wish for the best of the best of leaders. And while he was a much loved comedian tv-persona, they were well aware that he had shortcomings and needed experience (which he now has..), and they've been criticizing him good and bad since before he was elected. But he's no puppet, and people chose him, period.
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Bernd Lauert
Banned
They have endless amounts of Soviet era weapons. I think the only reason why new conscripts currently aren't being properly equipped is because of bad logistics.
So would you argue that quantity doesn't matter in this war? I personally think it's been the #1 reason why Russia's invasion has been a middling success at best, they were arrogant and threw way too few soldiers in.
You keep bringing up unrelated stuff, and I don't even know who you are
Lukaku's First Touch
Member
Ok, we'll let them annex your home for peace too.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
That’s funny because they had a popular uprising to open towards the west instead of staying in the Russian sphere of influence. That decision was backed by the Ukrainian parliament but blocked by the government who was Russian friendly and now lives in exile there.
So, to recap: parliament votes to move towards EU, Russian puppets say no, the people revolt because they agree with parliament.
But the whole western overture is just puppeteering by western governments. Sure.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
This is a good point. The people who want regime change in Russia should really be careful what they wish for. There are too many people way worse than Putin waiting to climb that throne.
ItsGreat
Member
It's what we let the israelis do isn't it?
Still a better love story than Twilight
mxbison
Member
Wtf are you even talking about?
Russia invaded Ukraine. Nobody else. Even if all that about West wanting war is true, Russia invaded Ukraine and started the war. They could pull out any time and end the war.
What a load of shit trying to shift the blame on others.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
That is propaganda.
Reality: Russian weapon stockpiles have severely diminished due to lack of maintenance and corruption.
They raided Belorussian artillery stockpiles and now they’re buying from North Korea. The majority of tanks currently being used are T62, last produced in the 60’s - all newer stuff is mostly gone. Supposedly all the stocks of older models were either sold or dismantled, so once they run out of T62 they’ll have to find sellers in the open market.
I was wondering when you would bring the jews into the conversation.
captainnapalm
Member
It's not about blame but about trying to understand a complex geo-political situation that did not begin with Russia's invasion. The West has been using Ukraine to antagonise Russia for quite some time. And there seems to be such hatred for Russia by some in Ukraine that they're happily going along with it. But it's not a good strategy for the safety and wellbeing of Ukrainians - especially because the US will likely stop short of really backing them against Russia when push comes to shove.
They're happy to have a nice money-making war, but if and when the time comes, Ukraine will be hung out to dry. This is standard operating procedure going back decades in these kinds of proxy wars. Ukraine is not the first country to be used like this and it won't be the last.
ItsGreat
Member
We're talking about state actions.
If you're accusing me of anti-semitism you can go fuck yourself.
Not really, but let’s play pretend and assume they do have an endless stockpile! Weapons require ammunition. Soldiers need first aid kits, food, and water. Socks. Body armor. Cold weather gear. They are in short supply of all these things.
”I think”. Uh huh.
At this point, absolutely not. It’s too late to turn the tide. I would actually agree with the latter portion of your response, Russia went in with too few soldiers for what they were aiming to accomplish. That 300K could have made a difference months ago. But that would have required the conscription back then, which would never have fit the narrative Putin pushed and thus never happened, so this entire premise is stupid.
Nobody gives a shit who I am. More importantly, I keep mentioning your console warring because that’s the level of discourse you bring here. Few want to engage, because your ideas are shit tier akin to Elon Musk’s dumbass tweet on the subject matter. You’re insincere, and you’re not actually interested in the subject matter. You’re here to be contrarian, and I’m stupid enough to engage with it.You keep bringing up unrelated stuff, and I don't even know who you are
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kuncol02
Banned
Are you paid to write things THAT stupid?
Don't bother with responding. You landed on ignore list for repeating ruSSian propaganda about Ukrainian puppet government anyway. There is no point in discussion with you anyway.
MisterFalcon
Member
*Starves millions*
*Annexes Crimea*
*Invades, kills tens of thousands*
*Openly calls for the annihilation of the entire Ukrainian culture*
"Such hatred of Russia by some Ukrainians, boo hoo"
*Annexes Crimea*
*Invades, kills tens of thousands*
*Openly calls for the annihilation of the entire Ukrainian culture*
"Such hatred of Russia by some Ukrainians, boo hoo"
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
That is propaganda.
Ukraine wanted to move towards the west, Russian puppets tried to stop it, it failed and now they went to war.
Bonus points for trying to argue that this is happening because Ukrainians hate Russia… a country that has committed several acts of genocide in Ukraine and is in the process of committing another. This is happening because Ukrainians are being sovereign and deciding their fate for themselves.
winjer
Member
It's not so much that the west is trying to antagonize Russia. It's that all former Warsaw pact countries hate being under Russian rule.
So all these countries are trying to seek help from the west to protect themselves from Russian aggression and exploitation.
Ukraine wanted to get closer ties to the EU, because they want to prosperity and democracy. They look at Poland, which has made leaps and bounds in prosperity, ever since it joined the EU, and wish for the same thing.
And it's not that the west is trying to antagonize Russia, just for the sake of it. It's that the west doesn't like authoritarian regimes.
Might I remind you that Russia was once an ally of European countries. Remember that Russia fought along side France and England during WW1. And fought along side Prussia, Austria, England, portugal and Spain, against France, during the Napoleonic wars.
Russia has a long story along side European countries, but it was with the USSR that Russia got isolated from the rest of Europe. And Putin is a moron stuck in a cold war mentality.
Tumle
Member
please prove that Zelenskyy was not democratically elected.. and loosen that silver paper hat..
these conspiracy theories with out any motivation or goals, needs to stop.
MisterFalcon
Member
Imagine losing a war so badly to a comedian puppet regime. Russian propaganda, like everything they do, backfiring completely.
That’s the most frustrating thing about these contrarian arguments. When you distill them, you are always left with the premise that Ukrainians are apparently too stupid to make decisions for themselves. It has some serious “WAKE UP SHEEPLE” energy.
nemiroff
Gold Member
This is all completely made up in your head or parroted from populist right-wing personas. Instead of patronizing a whole country, genuinely, you should reset and start from scratch; go to Ukraine, take a look, talk to people. The truth isn't that complex; The west is "operating" in Ukraine, yeah, but because they was "invited" to Ukraine. Because that's simply the direction people in Ukraine have wished for, especially the new generation of Ukrainians born in a sovereign country, tired of corruption, tired of being exploited by ruzzia. I know, because I started going and partly living there (working remotely from Kyiv when my wife lived there) more than 15 years ago, well before ruzzias 2014 invasion.
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Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Oh, it’s the standard reply by Chinese and Russian representatives and thus by anyone defending their actions.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Terrible gotcha, it's not like us peasants know anything for sure. We're exchanging mostly opinions.
I agree that it might be too late for a turnaround. It'll still be enough to prolong this war for a decade, if need be.
All I see is baseless accusations. Feel free to disengage.
BLAUcopter
Gold Member
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
captainnapalm
Member
I can understand wanting to be part of the West and seeing it as more prosperous and a better deal than being under Russian influence, but unfortunately the West doesn't actually give a fuck about the long-term wellbeing of Ukraine, because it has much bigger fish to fry, and is happy to use Ukraine as a means to an end. These people always look out for No 1 first, and right now it is more interested in using Ukraine as a proxy.
So you think you're inviting a good friend, but they just see dollar signs and a weapon to use against Russia.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
How can the west be using Ukraine as a proxy if the war was started by Russia? Are you accusing Russia of being a western puppet?
Tams
Member
Bernd Lauert
captainnapalm
ItsGreat
You are either trolls for Russia or from some equally despotic shithole, or idiots living in free and fair countries, likely who 'don't believe the mainstream media'.
If the former, just fuck off. Go shit up somewhere else.
If the latter, then take a very long hard look in a mirror.
Ukraine have their territory, that as far as we know, the majority there want to be in Ukraine, not Russia. Furthermore, Russia have committed an enormous number of atrocities in their invasion that they are not calling an invasion. The 'West'/democratic world are helping Ukraine because they were becoming and want to be an even more democratic country. As to why? Well, as far as we know, it's the fairest form of governance.
Yes, of course the 'West' have selfish interests. Russia themselves are a threat to our very existence, some of us more than others. This would only get worse if they are successful in Ukraine. Then there are the other authoritarian regimes who are looking at this from a distance and would pounce if Russia were to gain from this. It would set a terrible precedent that if you have the power to take territory then there's nothing to stop you. And of course military suppliers are going to benefit, though really they make plenty as it is and don't need to be going around starting wars.
As for the whataboutism; two wrongs do not make a right.
If you honestly believe the bullshit you are spouting, go move to an authoritarian regime and never come back. Though going by recent events, many Iranians might not welcome you, so I suggest you don't choose Iran.
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Bernd Lauert
Banned
Damn, that dude is on cocaine. But the cui bono question is interesting, indeed.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
One posts a propaganda video, another comments how interesting it is. Nice cadence.
Did they happen to mention that Russia has increased the amount of gas pumped through the nordstream after the sabotage and the resulting turbulence at the breach makes it impossible to get closer to investigate?
FunkMiller
Banned
Allowing an aggressive invasionary nation any claim to the land it invaded is never ‘peace’.
Stunning how you don’t realise that.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Your opinions are based on the belief that Ukraine can outright win this war and chase the Russians back to Russia. My opinions are based on the belief that Ukraine can not do that. That's all there is to it, no need to indulge in conspiracy theories or call people authoritarian.
You are either trolls for Russia or front some equally despotic shithole, or idiots living in free and fair countries, likely who 'don't believe the mainstream media'.
If the former, just fuck off. Go shit up somewhere else.
If the latter, then take a very long hard look in a mirror.
Ukraine have their territory, that as far as we know, the majority there want to be in Ukraine, not Russia. Furthermore, Russia have committed an enormous number of atrocities in their invasion that they are not calling an invasion. The 'West'/democratic world are helping Ukraine because they were becoming and want to be an even more democratic country. As to why? Well, as far as we know, it's the fairest form of governance.
Yes, of course the 'West' have selfish interests. Russia themselves are a threat to our very existence, some of us more than others. This would only get worse if they are successful in Ukraine. Then there are the other authoritarian regimes who are looking at this from a distance and would pounce if Russia were to gain from this. It would set a terrible precedent that if you have the power to take territory then there's nothing to stop you. And of course military suppliers are going to benefit, though really they make plenty as it is and don't need to be going around starting wars.
As for the whataboutism; two wrongs do not make a right.
If you honestly believe the bullshit you are spouting, go move to an authoritarian regime and never come back. Though going by recent events, many Iranians might not welcome you, so I suggest you don't choose Iran.
You’re exchanging mostly opinions, I bothered to give at least some reference material to support why I stated what I have. There are multitudes of source materials detailing Russian supply constraints yet meanwhile, you provide conjecture.
I mean, there’s the article stuff from earlier that I posted but that requires reading it. Maybe video format will help?
An anecdote for sure, but one of many. And that’s the thing, these are not isolated issues.
A decade? Based on what? You’re just saying shit, it’s why no one takes you seriously.
No problem, I think my work here is done for now.
FunkMiller
Banned
You are either trolls for Russia or front some equally despotic shithole, or idiots living in free and fair countries, likely who 'don't believe the mainstream media'.
Also, I think a lot of it stems from just wanting the war to be over because it is affecting them.
It’s understandable to be scared of the ramifications of what’s happening in Ukraine on the wider world.
But… it’s not reasonable to expect the Ukrainians to just capitulate so the rest of us don’t have to worry about our energy bills or gas prices.
Entitlement is a huge driver of anti Ukraine sentiment.
Tams
Member
Perhaps you're right that Ukraine can't push Russia completely out. But considering they can't even feed, clothe, and shelter drafted people in training, and that almost all their forces are either in a stalemate or in retreat right now... that's not looking so good. And winter is coming, with Ukraine having secured plenty of equipment and supplies to last them through it.
If you are right, what then, is your answer to the boost to Russian bravado that gaining territory through force and not being punished for theft and war crimes will be then?
Let me tell you, the countries bordering Russia would not be happy with that outcome.
Oh, and I was alluding you to being a bootlicker, not an authoritarian.
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Bernd Lauert
Banned
As I mentioned, Russia is a shithole and the logistics are terrible. I guess we're in agreement?
Based on a war that's already been going on since 2014?
Good day.
winjer
Member
Half a year ago, I would say that Ukraine pushing back the Russian forces, all the way back, out of Ukraine, would be close to impossible.
But now, seeing how pathetic the Russian army is. How they conscript old men and drunkards. How they are resorting to using rusty AK-Ms and old T-62. How Russia can't even gain air superiority. How hundreds of thousands of Russian men ran away into neighboring countries to avoid conscription.
Yes, at this point, I think Ukraine has a good chance of kicking out Russia all the way back.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Of course they'll be punished, they have to bring something to the table for the peace deal to happen.
I didn't know that Peace wears boots.
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