Support NeoGAF

[funkygunther]

If a NATO member entered the war unilaterally they wouldn’t be able to trigger article 5 if Russia attacked them. There is no risk of dragging NATO into direct conflict of the UK or Poland wanted to send troops to Ukraine, they would simply be giving up article 5 protection.

The UK and US tried this in 2003, it was a disaster…and that was on the other side of the world against militias of low power and ordnance

A country’s primary foreign policy goal is the welfare of its own citizens, and NATO countries know they have the best armour in article 5’s unconditional defense protection. It would take a seismic change for a country like Poland to forego that, and doing it now would put its own citizens at a risk that isn’t borne out in any reward it can sell to itself or its allies. This is just warmongering nonsense.

 

[BadBurger]

 

[Apocryphon]

The UK and US tried this in 2003, it was a disaster…and that was on the other side of the world against militias of low power and ordnance

A country’s primary foreign policy goal is the welfare of its own citizens, and NATO countries know they have the best armour in article 5’s unconditional defense protection. It would take a seismic change for a country like Poland to forego that, and doing it now would put its own citizens at a risk that isn’t borne out in any reward it can sell to itself or its allies. This is just warmongering nonsense.

The US and UK prosecuted an unjust, illegal war against a sovereign nation to enact regime change, sold to the public under false pretences. The Iraq war is a terrible analogy for what is happening in Ukraine.

It’s more like when Poland was invaded by Germany…

 

[funkygunther]

The US and UK prosecuted an unjust, illegal war against a sovereign nation to enact regime change, sold to the public under false pretences. The Iraq war is a terrible analogy for what is happening in Ukraine.

It’s more like when Poland was invaded by Germany…

your point was going against NATO unilaterally, and now you're saying the reasons for this impacted the outcome...like I said, warmongering nonsense

 

[Apocryphon]

your point was going against NATO unilaterally, and now you're saying the reasons for this impacted the outcome...like I said, warmongering nonsense

Putting words in my mouth isn’t helping your argument

Explain how the hypothetical of a country like Poland… who’s ambassador literally just said that if Ukraine is defeated they would have to enter the war against Russia… allying themselves with Ukraine and entering the conflict to push Russia out of the occupied territories, giving up their article 5 defence in the process… is “against NATO”.

Britain and France were accused of warmongering once. Surely everybody should be advocating for aggression towards Russia?

 

[funkygunther]

Putting words in my mouth isn’t helping your argument

Explain how the hypothetical of a country like Poland… who’s ambassador literally just said that if Ukraine is defeated they would have to enter the war against Russia… allying themselves with Ukraine and entering the conflict to push Russia out of the occupied territories, giving up their article 5 defence in the process… is “against NATO”.

Britain and France were accused of warmongering once. Surely everybody should be advocating for aggression towards Russia?

The reasons for the Iraq war are utterly irrelevant to the outcome of it being a disaster, it's the clearest example of a non-NATO war of aggression we have.

On the Polish ambassador, circumstances change which I've already mentioned above and I've already explained why aggression from Poland is a bad idea - maybe you missed that to focus on discussing your own opinion on the Iraq war. Read.

Ukraine's allies have done two things: ensure they are protected as much as possible from the fallout of the war, and slowly edge more military support into the country as circumstances change or meet their internal criteria...I trust these defense departments to do their job in this scenario more than I do you.

 

[Apocryphon]

The reasons for the Iraq war are utterly irrelevant to the outcome of it being a disaster, it's the clearest example of a non-NATO war of aggression we have.

On the Polish ambassador, circumstances change which I've already mentioned above and I've already explained why aggression from Poland is a bad idea - maybe you missed that to focus on discussing your own opinion on the Iraq war. Read.

Ukraine's allies have done two things: ensure they are protected as much as possible from the fallout of the war, and slowly edge more military support into the country as circumstances change or meet their internal criteria...I trust these defense departments to do their job in this scenario more than I do you.

Ah yes, the defence departments that have provided an abundance of evidence stretching over the past several decades that they should be trusted with making decisions about which global conflicts to engage in…

You’re not wrong. But here’s what I see…

A truly ‘just’ war presents itself, and everybody has taken the position that the US took in World War 2. Don’t get involved unless we are directly attacked ourselves. Meanwhile, Europe burned and millions died.

Weapon donations and lend-lease in return for reconstruction contracts doesn’t feel good enough if Ukraine is vital to western security and the stability of the Euro-Atlantic area. Better bloody hope Ukraine can actually pull this off with their own manpower and mothballed western weapons.

 

[funkygunther]

Ah yes, the defence departments that have provided an abundance of evidence stretching over the past several decades that they should be trusted with making decisions about which global conflicts to engage in…

You’re not wrong. But here’s what I see…

A truly ‘just’ war presents itself, and everybody has taken the position that the US took in World War 2. Don’t get involved unless we are directly attacked ourselves. Meanwhile, Europe burned and millions died.

Weapon donations and lend-lease in return for reconstruction contracts doesn’t feel good enough if Ukraine is vital to western security and the stability of the Euro-Atlantic area. Better bloody hope Ukraine can actually pull this off with their own manpower and mothballed western weapons.

Key qualifiers to trusting defense departments statement: in this scenario, and where the alternative is you. That's because your alternative is putting more civilians at risk for what you "feel" is "just".

 

[winjer]

It's curious how after so long, the 2nd Iraq war is still an excuse for Russian bots.
If anyone criticizes Russia over the invasion of Georgia, there comes the bots, "but what about Iraq"
Anyone criticizes Russia for invading Crimea, there comes the bots, "but what about Iraq"
Anyone criticizes Russia for their actions in Syria, there comes the bots, "but what about Iraq"
Anyone criticizes Russia for invading Ukraine, there comes the bots, "but what about Iraq"

Sorry to disappoint you, but one wrong does justify another wrong.
If I kill another person, doesn't mean you get to kill someone else for free.

And another thing, Europe and USA are not fighting Russia in Ukraine. They are just providing assistance.
There have been many cases, throughout history, where Russia was providing assistance to a country the US was fighting.
Sometimes, it was not just a matter of Russia just sending money and weapons. Sometimes they actually sent Russian soldiers to fight the US.

 

[funkygunther]

I brought up Iraq I'm not a Russian bot I swear, although that's what a Russian bot would say

 

[FunkMiller]

I brought up Iraq I'm not a Russian bot I swear, although that's what a Russian bot would say

It’s weird that in 2023, some people still think the whataboutism argument is effective, and not completely transparent. It’s very, very well documented how people with an agenda they don’t want to be upfront about for whatever reason, resort to whataboutism as a way to still support that agenda, but not be seen to be obviously doing it.

Do they think other people are too dumb to see what they’re doing? Or are they too dumb themselves to realise it doesn’t work anymore?

 

[funkygunther]

It’s weird that in 2023, some people still think the whataboutism argument is effective, and not completely transparent. It’s very, very well documented how people with an agenda they don’t want to be upfront about for whatever reason, resort to whataboutism as a way to still support that agenda, but not be seen to be obviously doing it.

Do they think other people are too dumb to see what they’re doing? Or are they too dumb themselves to realise it doesn’t work anymore?

it's never been particularly effective, it's a "yeah but..." admission of guilt and attempt at deflection at the same time

the only way it becomes effective is if the recipient is particularly taken by the emotional moral appeal of the whataboutism which is "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"

 

[Artoris]

It's curious how after so long, the 2nd Iraq war is still an excuse for Russian bots.
If anyone criticizes Russia over the invasion of Georgia, there comes the bots, "but what about Iraq"
Anyone criticizes Russia for invading Crimea, there comes the bots, "but what about Iraq"
Anyone criticizes Russia for their actions in Syria, there comes the bots, "but what about Iraq"
Anyone criticizes Russia for invading Ukraine, there comes the bots, "but what about Iraq"

Sorry to disappoint you, but one wrong does justify another wrong.
If I kill another person, doesn't mean you get to kill someone else for free.

And another thing, Europe and USA are not fighting Russia in Ukraine. They are just providing assistance.
There have been many cases, throughout history, where Russia was providing assistance to a country the US was fighting.
Sometimes, it was not just a matter of Russia just sending money and weapons. Sometimes they actually sent Russian soldiers to fight the US.

"but what about Iraq" they never mention Afghanistan though

 

[winjer]

"but what about Iraq" they never mention Afghanistan though

Probably because Russia also invaded Afghanistan, but they got their asses kicked hard.

 

[Apocryphon]

Key qualifiers to trusting defense departments statement: in this scenario, and where the alternative is you. That's because your alternative is putting more civilians at risk for what you "feel" is "just".

That’s fair, but we’re talking about a country that already used two radiological weapons on British soil and just tried to assassinate a CIA asset on US soil. Like it or not, we’re already in this war and have been for some time.

 

[Apocryphon]

It’s weird that in 2023, some people still think the whataboutism argument is effective, and not completely transparent. It’s very, very well documented how people with an agenda they don’t want to be upfront about for whatever reason, resort to whataboutism as a way to still support that agenda, but not be seen to be obviously doing it.

Do they think other people are too dumb to see what they’re doing? Or are they too dumb themselves to realise it doesn’t work anymore?

Some people are apparently so dumb they don’t even read the comments posted and jump to wild conclusions, regurgitating drivel that splatters off the walls of their echo chamber

 

[Apocryphon]

“In its early phases, Ukraine’s counteroffensive is having less success and Russian forces are showing more competence than western assessments expected”..

“The counteroffensive is ““not meeting expectations on any front,””.

Early stages of Ukrainian counteroffensive ‘not meeting expectations,’ Western officials tell CNN | CNN Politics

In its early phases, Ukraine’s counteroffensive is having less success and Russian forces are showing more competence than western assessments expected, two western officials and a senior US military official tell CNN.

www.cnn.com

It’s starting to look like some people assumed there would be a complete rout.

 

[FunkMiller]

Some people are apparently so dumb they don’t even read the comments posted and jump to wild conclusions, regurgitating drivel that splatters off the walls of their echo chamber

Did I mention you in my comment, genius?

 

[Apocryphon]

Did I mention you in my comment, genius?

I take it back. Who are we talking about then?

 

[FunkMiller]

I take it back. Who are we talking about then?

It was a comment about people descending into whataboutism when they have a bad faith argument to make.

 

[Chiggs]

Russian mercenary boss accuses top brass of Ukraine battlefield cover-up

Russian mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin added fuel to his feud with the top brass on Thursday, accusing them of lying to President Vladimir Putin and the Russian people about the scale of Russian losses and setbacks in Ukraine.

www.reuters.com

I wonder if we'll ever arrive at reasonably solid numbers for this war. Both sides are lying through their teeth.

 

[Liljagare]

Ukrainian Forces advance another kilometer in Melitopol and Berdiansk directions

During the past day, the Defense Forces advanced up to a kilometer in the Melitopol and Berdiansk directions, destroying 129 Russian invaders and wounding 236 more. â Ukrinform.

www.ukrinform.net

Slowly but surely "not pausing" .

 

[sinnergy]

Ukrainian Forces advance another kilometer in Melitopol and Berdiansk directions

During the past day, the Defense Forces advanced up to a kilometer in the Melitopol and Berdiansk directions, destroying 129 Russian invaders and wounding 236 more. â Ukrinform.

www.ukrinform.net

Slowly but surely "not pausing" .

Great ! Let them bleed !

 

[NoLootBoxDev]

Russia demands U.S. pay reparations for helping Ukraine in war​

newsweek.com/russia...

 

[NoLootBoxDev]

 

[Liljagare]

 

[Firestartah]

I feel like people are full on copium with this. The reality is that the counter offensive isnt going as good as it was expected. This will be dragged for years until Ukraine will be tired of it and concede a good number of the territories still under control by the russians.
The west should have helped ukraine with real soldiers/pilots and call Russia's bluff with the nukes. Most barely even work at this point, and if they used them they would have become a real pariah state, where not even China could allign with. Right now they are trading shit in secrecy and this gives Russia the power to drag this out for a long time.

I'm getting tired of people getting hyped on twitter, reddit etc over every small destroyed building or enemy tank like that matters in the grand scheme of things. Ukraine cant win this mathematically, alone.

 

[Lunarorbit]

Russias average soldier is a 35 year old convict. At the start of the war it was a 21 yo professional soldier. Russia is losing this war. It could be prolonged with the increase of rockets they are producing but that's about it. It takes years to produce heavy equipment that's needed to sustain their loses. Ka-52 helicopters are getting shot down at an increased rate and they don't have replacement pilots. They are trying to find mercenaries in Africa and the middle east cause they don't have the numbers.

Iran and the Chinese are fucking around and still sending arms and material to Russia. Sanctions are being defeated by shell companies and funky transfering of said equipment to 3rd party countries to exploit loopholes.

Does any of that sound sustainable? No.

Russia is fucked. 250,000 killed or wounded men that probably can't work in factories anymore. Millions fled as the war started. That country is in big trouble and can't afford for the war to go on long. They aren't part of a united group against Ukraine.

While I doubt civil war would happen in Russia it doesnt matter. You have Wagner who hates the defense department. You have chechen warlords hiding away from the front cause they know they'd get ass blasted.

Estonia is building a hospital in Ukraine and setting defensive equipment. Do you have any idea how small Estonia is? Everyone in Europe is pitching in. All the scandanvian countries that border Russia are armed up now. Japan has changed their stance on militarizing which is mind blowing.

Russia is fucked. Crimea is getting cut off as we speak from supply lines. It's way harder to try and ship something into Crimea by boat than it is by rail. Each day we are seeing Ukraine advance a kilo or 2 and they have barely implemented any of the heavy equipment besides bradley like vehicles.

 

[Ironbunny]

I feel like people are full on copium with this. The reality is that the counter offensive isnt going as good as it was expected. This will be dragged for years until Ukraine will be tired of it and concede a good number of the territories still under control by the russians.
The west should have helped ukraine with real soldiers/pilots and call Russia's bluff with the nukes. Most barely even work at this point, and if they used them they would have become a real pariah state, where not even China could allign with. Right now they are trading shit in secrecy and this gives Russia the power to drag this out for a long time.

I'm getting tired of people getting hyped on twitter, reddit etc over every small destroyed building or enemy tank like that matters in the grand scheme of things. Ukraine cant win this mathematically, alone.

Yea, its full on copium for us here as ruZZias three day war has gone now over one and a half year. What I dont understand is how people can come to this thread telling "truths"....What you said above are very real possibilities but not guaranteed the be the outcomes. There are so many moving parts in this that this can go very different ways one might think. There is a real fog of war over all of this and everyone with a half of a brain knows you cant tell how to war is going from a few videos.

 

[BlackTron]

I feel like people are full on copium with this. The reality is that the counter offensive isnt going as good as it was expected. This will be dragged for years until Ukraine will be tired of it and concede a good number of the territories still under control by the russians.
The west should have helped ukraine with real soldiers/pilots and call Russia's bluff with the nukes. Most barely even work at this point, and if they used them they would have become a real pariah state, where not even China could allign with. Right now they are trading shit in secrecy and this gives Russia the power to drag this out for a long time.

I'm getting tired of people getting hyped on twitter, reddit etc over every small destroyed building or enemy tank like that matters in the grand scheme of things. Ukraine cant win this mathematically, alone.

Yeah I feel like the politics are going to get really interesting late July. Thing is the longer it gets dragged out, the more it weakens Russia so the West may not mind much, but Ukraine gets pounded meanwhile.

I hope we end up able to do more before UA is pushed past the tipping point.

 

[Ironbunny]

 

[LimanimaPT]

Next stop: moscow!!

 

[Chiggs]

Ukraine cant win this mathematically, alone.

You're probably right here, but how can Russia win it? It's a fucking disaster that has blown waaaaaay past their internal deadlines, and it's not like Russia is some incredible economic powerhouse that can withstand this indefinitely.

Who's really winning here is China. Oh, sure....they have their little good neighbor/team up pact with Russia, but the weaker Russia grows, the more China licks its chops at all those natural resources right across the border. I'm not talking invasion or anything...just more of this kind of thing:

'Parched' Chinese city plans to pump water from Russian lake via 1,000km pipeline

Urban planners in Lanzhou have drawn up proposals to pipe water into the chronically dry region from Siberia’s Lake Baikal.

www.theguardian.com

And while riots and protests ended that foray, the more dependent on China Russia becomes, well....

 

[Hudo]

It's curious how after so long, the 2nd Iraq war is still an excuse for Russian bots.
If anyone criticizes Russia over the invasion of Georgia, there comes the bots, "but what about Iraq"
Anyone criticizes Russia for invading Crimea, there comes the bots, "but what about Iraq"
Anyone criticizes Russia for their actions in Syria, there comes the bots, "but what about Iraq"
Anyone criticizes Russia for invading Ukraine, there comes the bots, "but what about Iraq"

Sorry to disappoint you, but one wrong does justify another wrong.
If I kill another person, doesn't mean you get to kill someone else for free.

And another thing, Europe and USA are not fighting Russia in Ukraine. They are just providing assistance.
There have been many cases, throughout history, where Russia was providing assistance to a country the US was fighting.
Sometimes, it was not just a matter of Russia just sending money and weapons. Sometimes they actually sent Russian soldiers to fight the US.

What about Iraq, tho?

 

[NoLootBoxDev]

He really wants to get rid of that guy.

 

[winjer]

He really wants to get rid of that guy.

I'm surprised to see one Russian in a position of power, telling the truth for once.

 

[belmarduk]

I brought up Iraq I'm not a Russian bot I swear, although that's what a Russian bot would say

There's really no point in doing that. Yes, there are many historical instances of countries invading others. The Iraq War was terribly wrong... but how does it make Russia's invasion of Ukraine less wrong?

 

[funkygunther]

There's really no point in doing that. Yes, there are many historical instances of countries invading others. The Iraq War was terribly wrong... but how does it make Russia's invasion of Ukraine less wrong?

I didn't bring it up as an example of more wrong vs less wrong, nor was it even an example in the context of invasions at all. You must have missed the posts where I brought it up and the conversation it stemmed from, and the subsequent post where I addressed the whataboutism used by Russian bots.

 

[Liljagare]

This is a very important milestone...psychologically to push the Russians back to pre-2014-for a regime that thought in 2022 they would win in 3 days is a huge humiliation and kick in the teeth. Most excellent news.

 

[Liljagare]

I feel like people are full on copium with this. The reality is that the counter offensive isnt going as good as it was expected. This will be dragged for years until Ukraine will be tired of it and concede a good number of the territories still under control by the russians. *Edited*

I'm getting tired of people getting hyped on twitter, reddit etc over every small destroyed building or enemy tank like that matters in the grand scheme of things. Ukraine cant win this mathematically, alone.

It's not copium, and you are missing that, unfortunately for now, Ukraine has to let RuSSia control the media space, due to OPSEC.

Ukraine has destroyed 30-70% of RuSSkie total ground equipment so far, varying on platforms.

Yes, the lack of air superiority is hurting, but RuSSia is being bled out.

APC's/Tanks/other armoured vehicles/Artillery, look at the numbers, even go by Soviet numbers, RuSSia is running out of steel to throw at Ukraine. That's math.

 

[Firestartah]

APC's/Tanks/other armoured vehicles/Artillery, look at the numbers, even go by Soviet numbers, RuSSia is running out of steel to throw at Ukraine. That's math.

They have more than 3 times the population of Ukraine. They can import anti tank launchers from Iran, China or their friendly african puppet states and just throw people to the grinder until Ukraine just says its not worth it. Its what they did in WW2. Theres just no loss scenario valid for Putin, he knows he will be over if it happens, hes all in.

For the record, this is what I think will happen, its not what I wish ofc. I fully support Ukraine and wish they would regain all their territories.

 

[winjer]

They have more than 3 times the population of Ukraine. They can import anti tank launchers from Iran, China or their friendly african puppet states and just throw people to the grinder until Ukraine just says its not worth it. Its what they did in WW2. Theres just no loss scenario valid for Putin, he knows he will be over if it happens, hes all in.

For the record, this is what I think will happen, its not what I wish ofc. I fully support Ukraine and wish they would regain all their territories.

Exactly, and this is why the EU and USA need to step up their assistance.
Up until now, tis help was good enough to keep Ukraine in the fight. But it's time to give enough assistance for Ukraine to win.

 

[Atrus]

They have more than 3 times the population of Ukraine. They can import anti tank launchers from Iran, China or their friendly african puppet states and just throw people to the grinder until Ukraine just says its not worth it. Its what they did in WW2. Theres just no loss scenario valid for Putin, he knows he will be over if it happens, hes all in.

For the record, this is what I think will happen, its not what I wish ofc. I fully support Ukraine and wish they would regain all their territories.

“It’s what they did in WW2”

You do realize that the they you are referring to includes Ukraine correct? Not only did Ukraine incur the second highest losses in WW2 in the Soviet Union, its per capita losses were worse than Russia’s and that is after the Holodomor.

Russia loses plenty of wars from Afghanistan to Chechnya. Ukraine will be no different. If Ukraine must be supported until every single Russian is conscripted and killed, then so be it.

 

[Roll Fizzlebeef]

 

[Chiggs]

And now this:

Moscow Strikes Kill 'Huge' Number Of Wagner Forces: Chief

The chief of Russian mercenary group Wagner on Friday accused Moscow's military leadership of ordering strikes on their camps and killing a "huge" number of forces.

www.barrons.com

The chief of Russian mercenary group Wagner on Friday accused Moscow's military leadership of ordering strikes on their camps and killing a "huge" number of forces.

 

[Forsete]

Wow!

 

[Corian33]

It’s so hard to tell what the real deal is with Wagner. Is this guy about to start a coup/civil war? Did these strikes even happen? Is at all a planned disinformation campaign from the start?

It would be great if they are actually blowing each other up, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s all fiction.

 

[Forsete]

Grain of salt. But I hope it is true.

 

[Forsete]

It’s so hard to tell what the real deal is with Wagner. Is this guy about to start a coup/civil war? Did these strikes even happen? Is at all a planned disinformation campaign from the start?

It would be great if they are actually blowing each other up, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s all fiction.

The video looked a bit fake IMO.
But if he needs a reason to start a civil war, I say go for it.

 

[nemiroff]

And so it begins.. it's all over the news now.

This doesn't automatically mean there'll be a civil war, but it's going to create a lot of disturbance, possibly chaos for a while.

And in the meantime we can cross our fingers hoping that it'll lead to even better things.