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[Guilty_AI]

This is going to happen whatever way the war ends. People here forget that there were more than 10 political parties pro-Russia that were banned at the start of the war and that will be back after war ends unless the ugly side of tyranny show his face.

YES, thats what i've been saying from the start. Ukraine isn't some monolith of a nation, and they've been almost a century under soviet leadership. Russia's influence isn't something they will wave away with one revolution and one war, its already igrained within the population and culture.

 

[winjer]

It isn't WW2 you should be looking at. Its WW1.

Oh my sweet summer child.
If only you knew about the plans that Eric Ludendorff had for Poland and the Baltic states....

 

[Guilty_AI]

Oh my sweet summer child.
If only you knew about the plans that Eric Ludendorff had for Poland and the Baltic states....

Were they evil? Throw it into the list.

But that kind demonstrates my point doesn't it?

 

[winjer]

Were they evil? Throw it into the list.

But that kind demonstrates my point doesn't it?

Ludendorff was planning to do, what Stalin did a few years later.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Ludendorff was planning to do, what Stalin did a few years later.

Reminds me WW1 was one of the main elements that fueled the russian revolutions in the first place. Guess you can throw that on the list of "terrible long-term side-effects brought by just wars".

 

[FunkMiller]

Please please PLEASE tell me you don't actually believe Ukranian forces are all boy scouts. All sides commit atrocities during war because military forces are composed of human beings.

It takes 2.7 seconds of Googling to see that.

Please do feel free to post links to independent sources showing Ukrainian atrocities on this scale.

You’d need to post evidence of wide scale rape and torture of civilians by Ukrainian soldiers.

 

[winjer]

Reminds me WW1 was one of the main elements that fueled the russian revolutions in the first place. Guess you can throw that on the list of "terrible long-term side-effects brought by just wars".

In 1904, Russia had a major revolution. It didn't succeed, but it showed how bad the situation in Russia was.
In 1913, the Tsar had to deploy troops to quell discontent, over 100 times.
Russian people were very discontent. So a revolution that would actually topple the government and the Tsar was bound to happen. And it did in 1917.
But the start of the war went very well for the Tsar. Conscription went very smoothly. There were plenty of volunteers. And moral with the Russian troops was very high.
Even after the 1917 revolution, Russians still believed in the war and they were holding the lines. But they wanted to be on a defensive posture.
It was only after Kerensky decided that they should attack, that things went really bad, as Russians took heavy casualties.
After that, Russians went on a retreat, with mass desertions. It got so bad, that the German army would put a bunch of troops on a train, go into the next train stop, leave a handful of guys and move into the next.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Russian people were very discontent. So a revolution that would actually topple the government and the Tsar was bound to happen. And it did in 1917.

And in no small part thanks to WW1, as it caused economic crisis, low soldier morale, food shortages and so on. Essential preconditions for a successful seizure of power.

But we digress. The point is, this war will not overturn the fact large chunks of the ukranian population are not in favor of a western leadership and that as such the conflict will not disappear. Snooping around citizens twitter accounts will not solve that dissent, as it comes from many decades of migling with russians both in culture and blood.

 

[winjer]

And in no small part thanks to WW1, as it caused economic crisis, low soldier morale, food shortages and so on. Essential preconditions for a successful seizure of power.

But we digress. The point is, this war will not overturn the fact large chunks of the ukranian population are not in favor of a western leadership and that as such the conflict will not disappear. Snooping around citizens twitter accounts will not solve that dissent, as it comes from many decades of migling with russians both in culture and blood.

The majority of the Ukrainian population doesn't support Russia.
Only in Crimea does Russia support have the majority, and even then it's only because most of the Tartars were deported to Siberia to die, and were replaced by Russians.
And then in 2014, lots of Ukrainians had to run from Crimea. And more Russians went in.

 

[funkygunther]

Two types of people...

1. This person disagrees with me. Let me understand why and maybe through exchanging ideas we can get a clearer picture of reality together.

2. This person disagrees with me. They are bad and dumb.

The religious + tribal often find themselves in #2. I'm never impressed by those people.

I see the complete irony of this post is totally wasted on you

 

[Rentahamster]

Now compare and contrast that list with the list in which war was bad. Don't just count the casualties either.

The only way you can think war is always good

Note: I don't actually agree with this tone. I'm merely mirroring yours to illustrate how religious and tribal this is.

The fact that you think this argument "mirrors" the one FunkMiller is trying to make demonstrates that you don't understand his argument. He's not trying to say that "war is always good".

It's easy to be pro war when don't see or experience its atrocities from the comfort of your gaming chair 5,000 miles away.

The fact that you think this is a "pro war" argument also demonstrates that you don't understand his argument. Most people's positions are anti-war. They don't like war, and don't appreciate Russia's offensive attack of Ukraine. We would all like it if this war would end, however, ending this war by means of sacrificing Ukraine to Russia's imperialist ambitions is a non-starter. This sets a grim precedent similar to letting Nazi Germany invade Poland and opens the door to future hostile actions, which Russia has openly shown they are planning. Therefore, self defense is one of the only options left. Think of it this way - what happens if either party magically adopts your mindset tomorrow? In Russia's case, they stop fighting and the war is over. Great. In Ukraine's case they stop fighting and then they get destroyed by Russia. Not so great. Is this an acceptable outcome for you?

The religious part of the human brain demands its heretics.

It's interesting you use this argument because a hallmark of religious thinking is an adherence to dogma and opinions that are strongly held but cannot be justified with evidence-based reasoning. Many people in this thread have given well-sourced and well-reasoned arguments that describe the unfortunate reality that is facing Ukraine. You have not given the same level of support to your positions, which makes your position less grounded. Your main counter argument is . . . "war is bad"? Well no shit war is bad, we all agree on that. This issue is more infinitely complex than that.

Your other counter argument is "I was fooled by the media about the Iraq War therefore this one is bullshit too"? You can't reasonably come to that conclusion because these are two different things. The most you can say is that the military-industrial complex influenced corporate media is unreliable due to many past errors like the Iraq War. However, is the media landscape the same now as it was in 2002? Are our sources of information still dominated by establishment media or are there alternative sources that can be tapped for information?

"I got fooled one time so I'm never believing it again" is a logically flawed argument.

 

[winjer]

Even Kazakhstan has turned against Russia....

Kazakhstan confirms intent to comply with sanctions against Russia

Kazakhstan will "definitely comply" with the sanctions regime against Russia, the country's President Kassym-Jomart Tokayev said at a press briefing on Sept. 28 after talks with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz.

news.yahoo.com

 

[Guilty_AI]

The majority of the Ukrainian population doesn't support Russia.
Only in Crimea does Russia support have the majority, and even then it's only because most of the Tartars were deported to Siberia to die, and were replaced by Russians.
And then in 2014, lots of Ukrainians had to run from Crimea. And more Russians went in.

These "minorities" are still in the millions of people, and they were big enough to form influential political parties. They're also present in eastern blocks of the country (the one's closest to russian territory, unsurprisingly).

And what the hell is up with bringing tartars deportation into the equation. That happened in the 1940s, thats 2-3 generations ago, most of the 'replacement' descendants (which i doubt even went there willingly) have been genuine ukranians for a while now.

 

[winjer]

These "minorities" are still in the millions of people, and they were big enough to form influential political parties. They're also present in eastern blocks of the country (the one's closest to russian territory, unsurprisingly).

And what the hell is up with bringing tartars deportation into the equation. That happened in the 1940s, thats 2-3 generations ago, most of the 'replacement' descendants (which i doubt even went there willingly) have been genuine ukranians for a while now.

So bringing up the past can only done by you, when it's convenient?

 

[Guilty_AI]

So bringing up the past can only done by you, when it's convenient?

I brought up the past to drawn historical parallels, not to justify actions.

 

[winjer]

I brought up the past to drawn historical parallels, not to justify actions.

So only you can bring up the past to justify stuff?

 

[Guilty_AI]

So only you can bring up the past to justify stuff?

What are you even on about? Quote when i used events from past generations to justify anything

 

[winjer]

What are you even on about? Quote when i used events from past generations to justify anything

Several post about WW1 and The Revolution of 1917...

 

[Guilty_AI]

Several post about WW1 and The Revolution of 1917...

And what exactly is that justifying?

 

[winjer]

And what exactly is that justifying?

Seriously. You make arguments based on WW1 and the 1917 revolution.
And now you pretend you didn't use them to justify your arguments.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Seriously. You make arguments based on WW1 and the 1917 revolution.
And now you pretend you didn't use them to justify your arguments.

I used WW1 and 1917 to drawn a historical parallels on how "just wars" still have terrible consequences. I have no clue what you even think i'm trying to justify here with these events.

 

[winjer]

I used WW1 and 1917 to drawn a historical parallels on how "just wars" still have terrible consequences. I have no clue what you even think i'm trying to justify here with these events.

And I did the same with the deportation of Tartars.
But for some reason, you think that only you can bring up the past.

 

[Guilty_AI]

And I did the same with the deportation of Tartars.
But for some reason, you think that only you can bring up the past.

No, you used the deportation of tartars in 1944 to justify direct action against action against its russian replacement descendents 90 years later. Unless i misunderstood what you meant?

 

[winjer]

No, you used the deportation of tartars in 1944 to justify direct action against action against its russian replacement descendents 90 years later. Unless i misunderstood what you meant?

Yes, again you misconstrued what I said.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Yes, again you misconstrued what I said.

So, these 'minorities', regardless of whatever historical reasons on how they came to be, are still pro-russia. What now? The dissent remains, and so does the conflict. Thats the point, and no matter how long i stay here i don't think you'll have a good answer for me, such is war.

But whatever, keep on cheering for the bombs dropped and body counts, thinking this somehow will solve all of problems.

 

[Slicker than your average]

Two types of people...

1. This person disagrees with me. Let me understand why and maybe through exchanging ideas we can get a clearer picture of reality together.

2. This person disagrees with me. They are bad and dumb.

The religious + tribal often find themselves in #2. I'm never impressed by those people.

3. Construct some meaningless reply that doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand to deflect from the topic at hand or any criticism.

Make a case of what Ukraine should do and I'll happy deconstruct it.

 

[Slicker than your average]

Please please PLEASE tell me you don't actually believe Ukranian forces are all boy scouts. All sides commit atrocities during war because military forces are composed of human beings.

It takes 2.7 seconds of Googling to see that.

Jesus fucking Christ. Instant whataboutism. Nobody is saying the Ukrainian soldiers aren't saints. But they aren't the ones being invaded or fighting off a genocide.

What's the worse the Ukrainians have done, summary executions instead of taking prisoners? What are the Russians doing? Beheading, torture, murdering children .endless lists.

 

[winjer]

So, these 'minorities', regardless of whatever historical reasons on how they came to be, are still pro-russia. What now? The dissent remains, and so does the conflict. Thats the point, and no matter how long i stay here i don't think you'll have a good answer for me, such is war.

But whatever, keep on cheering for the bombs dropped and body counts, thinking this somehow will solve all of problems.

Again, the same question? What for? The same misconstruction?

 

[Forsete]

It seems Skrotnisse got a new job. Traitor!




Fitting.

 

[Tams]

I don't have an opinion on that.

Then leave this thread and don't come back.

 

[Liljagare]

.....

......

Well, atleast this time it's a tag team.

Some of us are privy to direct information from war refugee's, some of us try to help anyone who needs it.

Ukrainan refugee's are very appreciative of the support. The RuSSkie ones are still whining about that Ukraine should just surrender and be extinguished, even as they hide from the drafts in foreign countries.

Think that speaks volumes.

 

[Liljagare]

Looking at FIRMS and Deepstate, the 429th Motorized Rifle Regiment near Luhove (lakeside Dnipro) may be having a very bad day.

NASA-FIRMS

Fire Information for Resource Management System

firms.modaps.eosdis.nasa.gov

DeepStateMAP | Map of the war in Ukraine

News of Russia's war against Ukraine on the map

deepstatemap.live

 

[Facism]

So, these 'minorities', regardless of whatever historical reasons on how they came to be, are still pro-russia. What now? The dissent remains, and so does the conflict. Thats the point, and no matter how long i stay here i don't think you'll have a good answer for me, such is war.

But whatever, keep on cheering for the bombs dropped and body counts, thinking this somehow will solve all of problems.

You're such a dishonest, mealy mouthed arsehole. A moral coward.

 

[RJMacready73]

I don't know how you guys can be arsed arguing with these Russian shills morons, it's like shouting at the wind, I view them in the same way I do Flat Earthers or Young Earth Creationists, proper fuckwits so you may as well yell at the wind.

These cunts would've been coming off with the same shit when the Allies where fighting off the Nazi's, I bet even now they could probably justify a lot of what Nazi German did in their little brains hence why wasting finger taps on a keyboard responding with actual reason and logic to these morons can be better spent keeping the rest of the board up-to-date with a: how well the Ukrainians are doing and b: how utterly fucking evil and stupid the Ruzzians are

 

[Slicker than your average]

Well, atleast this time it's a tag team.

Some of us are privy to direct information from war refugee's, some of us try to help anyone who needs it.

Ukrainan refugee's are very appreciative of the support. The RuSSkie ones are still whining about that Ukraine should just surrender and be extinguished, even as they hide from the drafts in foreign countries.

Think that speaks volumes.

Every 2 weeks like clockwork new clowns come in here saying the same shit. Either russian shilling or war is bad everyone's to blame.

 

[Liljagare]

Pavel Gubarev, former "People's Governor" of the Donetsk region, explained why the Russian Armed Forces couldn't take Kyiv in 3 days and defined Russia's ultimate goals, which include killing millions of Ukrainians.

30 OUT OF 40 ATTACK DRONES DESTROYED
On the night of September 30, 2023, Russian occupiers attacked Ukraine with "Shahed" type attack drones from the south direction (Cape Chauda - Crimea). In total, about 40 "Shahed-131/136" attack drones were detected.
With the efforts and means of the Air Forces, in cooperation with the anti-air defense of the Defense Forces of Ukraine, 30 "Shaheds" were destroyed within the Odesa, Mykolaiv, and Vinnytsia regions.

Ukrainian agent infiltrates Russian Spetsnaz, helps expose crimes.
Russia’s vaunted special forces have been infiltrated by Ukraine, the SBU disclosed Wednesday, with an undercover Ukrainian operative helping expose plots and document war crimes.
https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/09...ltrates-russian-spetsnaz-helps-expose-crimes/

 

[FunkMiller]

Every 2 weeks like clockwork new clowns come in here saying the same shit. Either russian shilling or war is bad everyone's to blame.

The worst thing is that this is such a black and white war in terms of morality that it makes the attempts to both sides it seem even weaker, and even more transparent.

This is like the Nazi invasion of Poland - a very easy conflict to parse morally.

Some are desperate to equate it to the American invasion of Iraq - a morally extremely murky enterprise. But there are zero comparisons to be had on that front with the war in Ukraine, for anyone that isn’t some kind of conspiracy theory nutcase.

 

[thuGG_pl]

This is like the Nazi invasion of Poland - a very easy conflict to parse morally.

Never heard of this country, you meant Germany?

 

[FunkMiller]

Never heard of this country, you meant Germany?

No. I meant the Nazis from Bermuda.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

No. I meant the Nazis from Bermuda.

Please, everyone knows the Nazis are in the lands beyond the Arctic wall, where they have New Berlin and the UFO base.

 

[thuGG_pl]

No. I meant the Nazis from Bermuda.

So let's call it by the real name pls. Unless you think that Putinists invaded Ukraine last year?

 

[winjer]

Never heard of this country, you meant Germany?

Don't forget that Germany and Russia invaded Poland in September 1939.
WW2 started in Europe with Nazi Germany and Communist Russia being allies and signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

 

[thuGG_pl]

Don't forget that Germany and Russia invaded Poland in September 1939.
WW2 started in Europe with Nazi Germany and Communist Russia being allies and signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

I'm not, I'm from Poland.

 

[winjer]

I'm not, I'm from Poland.

But are you. Or are you not.
And what are you not. But are you what. Or not what are you?

 

[thuGG_pl]

But are you. Or are you not.
And what are you not. But are you what. Or not what are you?

Sorry, I'm not native english speaker.
I meant, "I don't"

 

[funkygunther]

Sorry, I'm not native english speaker.
I meant, "I don't"

If you're replying to "don't forget" then "I'm not" is actually colloquially more correct. It's because "I'm not" is short for "I'm not forgetting", which is how a native speaker would respond to "don't forget". So even though "I don't (forget)" is a direct response it's more clumsy.

 

[FunkMiller]

So let's call it by the real name pls. Unless you think that Putinists invaded Ukraine last year?

They were called Nazis, you know. The German aspect of it kind of goes without saying - I admire your pedantry, though.

 

[Forsete]

https://afp.omni.se/russia-may-annex-more-ukrainian-regions-medvedev-says/a/8J8WRW

Russia's former leader Dmitry Medvedev suggested Saturday that Moscow may annex more regions of Ukraine, as he marked one year since the Kremlin claimed four Ukrainian territories…

 

[Liljagare]

Ukraine Is Using Russia’s Own Propagandists Against Them​

Ukraine Is Using Russia’s Own Propagandists Against Them

There’s also evidence that milblogger reports are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to accurate information about the situation facing Russian troops.

www.kyivpost.com

From the same country that brought us the "denazification" of Ukraine:
Russian state TV marks the anniversary of the "day of Donbas's and Novorossiya's reunification with Russia" with the slogan "One country, one family, one Russia!"

Hilarious that they are now straight up using nazi propaganda from WW2..

 

[Slicker than your average]

Ukraine Is Using Russia’s Own Propagandists Against Them​

Ukraine Is Using Russia’s Own Propagandists Against Them

There’s also evidence that milblogger reports are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to accurate information about the situation facing Russian troops.

www.kyivpost.com

Hilarious that they are now straight up using nazi propaganda from WW2..

Both sides are bad