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[Punished Miku]

Just out of curiosity. Would you have preferred trump to have been in charge at this time?

It's not an entirely useless question over the next two years, but off topic for here.

I think one of the best things to see out of this is the cooperation and engagement from the EU and US allies. Trump was not very good at building coalitions. Biden also called the invasion a week early and told the public; proving more reliable than what the Ukranians were even saying at the time. This tells me the administration was on the same page as the intelligence agencies, and they probably had more advance time to prepare their diplomatic and sanction efforts so they'd occur quickly.

Trump would be likely to not even believe his own intelligence agencies when it comes to Russia, and would be just as likely to take Putin at his word. Trump is better at appearing tough and unpredictable, so that seemingly worked for him briefly with North Korea. But he also has tons of odd comments complimenting Putin and refusing to criticize anything he does, even recently.

I didn't vote Biden, but I think he's done an admirable job so far. I don't see Trump doing anything better at this stage, and I could see him being worse in terms of coalition building, or advance preparation. Trump was also fairly anti-NATO. He'd be just as likely to advocate for Russia taking Ukraine and just avoiding any kind of conflict with them, period.

Trump Discussed Pulling U.S. From NATO, Aides Say Amid New Concerns Over Russia (Published 2019)

The president’s repeatedly stated desire in private to withdraw from the alliance has raised concerns among officials who fear he may revisit the threat.

www.nytimes.com

 

[funkygunther]

What do you mean "moving" to using terror tactics against people they consider their own?

true, they've already "mistakenly" shelled the shit out of an apartment block but I was speaking in the tense of the post I quoted

 

[Fools idol]

the peace talks wont achieve anything. Putin will not yield to the Ukraine

Our only hope of diplomatic solution is if China steps in and brokers a deal to stop nuclear war.

 

[STARSBarry]

Then the talks are as good as over.

Russia won't leave Crimea.

Sevastopol has MAJOR strategic value in the region and the peninsula was taken by force when Russianwas losing it's grip on UA in 2014.

All true, however if you have ever negotiated anything before you will know that you start with something that seems completely unreasonable that you do not expect to get. Then concede on several points (agreed prior with your own party) so the other side feels like that have "gained" something over the course of the meeting, before completing the negotiations with what you actually want which would be something like "Russia can retain Crimeia but must pull back everywhere else" for example.

Have to see how it goes, but normally both parties don't leave the table with the demands they come in with.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

the peace talks wont achieve anything. Putin will not yield to the Ukraine

Our only hope of diplomatic solution is if China steps in and brokers a deal to stop nuclear war.

I doubt anyone is going to start a nuclear war on purpose. But the heightened alert statuses make is much closer to some sort of miscommunication causing one to start by accident, and as other have pointed out…nonproliferation is probably out the window for many countries not wanting to become the next Ukraine

 

[Cyberpunkd]

All true, however if you have ever negotiated anything before you will know that you start with something that seems completely unreasonable that you do not expect to get. Rhen concede on several points so the other side feels like that have "gained" something over the course of the meeting, before completing the negotiations with what you actually want which would he something like "Russia can retain Crimeia but must pull back everywhere else" for example.

This is what needs to be said, smart that Ukrainians realize Russians and Putin need a way out and save face for them to accept the conditions.

 

[Hypereides]

How many war crimes are these assholes going to commit? using cluster bombing on civillians in Kharkov

Wouldn't be new to Putin. The war against Chechnya was brutal with a lot of civil casualties caught in it.

It's hard to be certain about anything coming from Putin considering the last few days... Using a nuke on an Ukrainian target wouldn't make any sense though, he would lose any credibility in his "we're here to unite the Rus populations and cultures" discourse (not sure exactly how many people are buying it right now, but that would reach 0 people if he started flattening entire cities full of civilians).
I suppose detonating a nuke where it wouldn't directly harm anybody could work, although it wouldn't exactly mean much especially if it's unprovoked.

The thing is, Putin has been nurturing a very controlled propaganda machine since the early 00's. His regime has very tight control on the message they want the common Russian to think is the definitive reality. So, they don't get to see both sides of the issue. Him and his entourage carefully craft the main message they want them to know. Its unfortunate, but given their state channels are the dominant ones, and government ministries punish/censor the media that diverge from it, a part of the population are probably more susceptible to it.

 

[chromhound]

They can find supplies while they are "negotiating"

 

[Yoboman]

Then the talks are as good as over.

Russia won't leave Crimea.

Sevastopol has MAJOR strategic value in the region and the peninsula was taken by force when Russianwas losing it's grip on UA in 2014.

I mean you don't want to start a negotiation from "Russia to leave Ukraine" if they are going to land somewhere in the middle.

 

[Wildebeest]

the peace talks wont achieve anything. Putin will not yield to the Ukraine

Our only hope of diplomatic solution is if China steps in and brokers a deal to stop nuclear war.

Well, if we are waiting for China to do the right thing, then RIP. I thought we had more time, but I guess it is time for all of us to say goodbye and make peace.

 

[Dev1lXYZ]

Russia has obviously lost control of the narrative and they are starting to fracture. This is when they start throwing everything but the kitchen sink militarily at Ukraine. Look at Kharkov and the barrage they took over the night.

The West should have already moved to fortify Western Ukraine. Draw the ‘line in the sand’ and tell Russia that if their forces cross it, Russian infrastructure will be targeted.

Trump supposedly communicated to Putin that we would obliterate Moscow and that kept them at bay. They know and we know the real score of military might.

Biden delivering the same message may make waves with Putin as we all know anything coming from him comes directly from the real folks in charge.

 

[STARSBarry]

This is what needs to be said, smart that Ukrainians realize Russians and Putin need a way out and save face for them to accept the conditions.

There's a saying in the North of the UK about this too, which is "Shy bairn's get nowt" essentially you have to ask to receive anything.

It would be nice to have the original demand of full Russian removal from Ukraine including Crimea but they will never get that unless they ask for it. While I am sure they don't expect to leave the room with that as the agreed solution it has more of a chance happening than if they had started with lesser demands.

However from here they have alot of wiggle room to negotiate back to essentially how Ukraine was last week.

Be intresting to see what comes of it.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

nvm, bit over the top

 

[Von Hugh]

This whole Putin's operation is starting to really smell like Napoleon in Battle of Waterloo, or Hitler and Operation Barbarossa. One last quest until the final demise.

Hopefully this leads into fall of Putin's regime. Dictators can't help themselves, can they.

 

[nkarafo]

Some dude finds some abandoned Legendary lvl loot and tows it back home with his tractor

When this whole thing ends i wonder how many civilians will end up with expensive, heavy military equipment in their homes and garages. Imagine owning your own semi-functional tank just to impress your friends.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

This whole Putin's operation is starting to really smell like Napoleon in Battle of Waterloo, or Hitler and Operation Barbarossa. One last quest until the final demise.

Hopefully this leads into fall of Putin's regime. Dictators can't help themselves, can they.

Unfortunately Russia is a petrostate and if you look around you’ll see petrostates tend to be ruthless dictatorships. Some scholars believe there’s structural reasons for that so… the fall of Putin will just mean another tyrant will take over.

 

[Liljagare]

Fired more generals, Putin doesn't see he's made the classic mistake of so many tyrants, they usually end up with just yes men in their closest circle and loose sight of the bigger picture.

Hope Ukraine holds.. Both materials and volunteers are arriving in pretty impressive numbers.

 

[ManaByte]

If this becomes WWIII we’re fucked.

 

[Wildebeest]

Unfortunately Russia is a petrostate and if you look around you’ll see petrostates tend to be ruthless dictatorships. Some scholars believe there’s structural reasons for that so… the fall of Putin will just mean another tyrant will take over.

Careful man, that's a bit political, innit.

 

[M1chl]

Unfortunately Russia is a petrostate and if you look around you’ll see petrostates tend to be ruthless dictatorships. Some scholars believe there’s structural reasons for that so… the fall of Putin will just mean another tyrant will take over.

Nah I think at this point West will put there someone, since they have financial leverage over anyone there.

 

[ManaByte]

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Helluva call back

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

If this becomes WWIII we’re fucked.

I mean Ukraine is bordering with Poland, you know a member of the EU? This twatter user doesn’t seem very smart.

 

[Doczu]

All true, however if you have ever negotiated anything before you will know that you start with something that seems completely unreasonable that you do not expect to get. Then concede on several points (agreed prior with your own party) so the other side feels like that have "gained" something over the course of the meeting, before completing the negotiations with what you actually want which would be something like "Russia can retain Crimeia but must pull back everywhere else" for example.

Have to see how it goes, but normally both parties don't leave the table with the demands they come in with.

I mean you don't want to start a negotiation from "Russia to leave Ukraine" if they are going to land somewhere in the middle.

Yeah i understand this tactic in diplomacy, i just hope that this is their first proposition and they'll search for a middle ground.
But if they think that Russia is weak enough to make them move out of Crimea then the talks are over and Putin has his argument that peace was never an option.

When this whole thing ends i wonder how many civilians will end up with expensive, heavy military equipment in their homes and garages. Imagine owning your own semi-functional tank just to impress your friends.

A lot.

 

[thuGG_pl]

Belarus sends their troops:

 

[Chaplain]

 

[Amiga]

But Russian Central Bank needs massive currency right now in order to save the Russian ruble. And considering all the foreign-held assets are being frozen Russia just got a lot less money to do so.

the ruble is heavily backed by gold so should have a bottom limit. the worst damage is buying international luxury products. they are covered mostly for essentials. the war dose have a cost. but also a long term gain if successful. the only real way Russia loses is if they fail. Ukraine is a treasure trove itself.

 

[Banjo64]

Only terms I can see Russia agreeing to are that that Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk are officially relinquished by Ukraine and that Ukraine will not joint NATO or the EU. Russia would probably want a pretty rapid de-escalation in Western financial sanctions too.

Whether Ukraine will agree to that, I don’t know.

Personally I just fucking hate that it’s the innocent people of Ukraine being murdered and the innocent people of Russia who will be financially fucked for this for years to come.

 

[Rossco EZ]

Ukrainian tank

 

[kurisu_1974]

Only terms I can see Russia agreeing to are that that Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk are officially relinquished by Ukraine and that Ukraine will not joint NATO or the EU. Russia would probably want a pretty rapid de-escalation in Western financial sanctions too.

Whether Ukraine will agree to that, I don’t know.

It would be crazy to agree to this. Ironically, the only safeguard Ukraine has to never have Russia invade again, is grant them NATO membership. I mean, when they were denuclearised, the resulting so called Budapest Memorandum clearly stated:

1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

You can't play a game with one player making up new rules all the time.

 

[Gp1]

Aren't MIG 29s a hunk of shit jet anyway? My understanding is that they're very good at getting shot out of the sky, but not so good at shooting other jets out of the sky.
And on the topic of replacement, would the US realistically sell F-35s to eastern European countries? I think it's more likely that they buy Typhoons and Rafales, but if the US is selling jets east, it would probably be old F-16s, don't you think?

Not exactly junk. They are good 4th gen point defense fighters.
You cannot give the Ukrainians any other fighter than what their pilots already are proficient at. Su-27, Mig-29, Su-25, the Turkish drone, etc.

I believe that the F-35 is already in some bidding process of "eastern" countries. Poland already bought some and I believe Finland (non NATO, until now) is procuring. The main limitation will be how much these countries want to pay.

 

[darrylgorn]

I'm not sure what the outcome of these ceasefire talks will be but if Putin does eventually retreat, we need to get Ukraine into NATO asap and station our forces along the border.

 

[chromhound]

UKRAINE IS 'NOT READY TO SURRENDER OR CAPITULATE' TO RUSSIA, FOREIGN MINISTER SAYS - CNBC

 

[Vestal]

I suggest everyone watch the Netflix documentary on Ukrainian 2014 Revolution. It will give you a perspective not only on what these people have been through but also on what they are willing to endure in order to be free.

Suffice to say, Ukraine will never see peace unless it is free!

There is a phrase one of the women on the video used that stuck with me. And I am paraphrasing.

“For 20 years we relied on a piece of paper that said we were free people, but now there is no doubt about it because we have bleed for our Freedom”

 

[STARSBarry]

Ukrainian tank

I mean thats a pretty bold claim, it could be a Ukranian T-64BM sure but I'm not a 100% due to the level of damage, could just as easily be a Russian T-72 varient it's really hard to tell due to how damaged it is and how similair in design all these upgraded soviet era tanks are, especially with the apllique ERA covering everything and the side skirts just completely gone.

 

[Rossco EZ]

I mean thats a pretty bold claim, it could be a Ukranian T-64BM sure but I'm not a 100% due to the level of damage, could just as easily be a Russian T-72 varient it's really hard to tell due to how damaged it is and how similair in design all these upgraded soviet era tanks are, especially with the apllique ERA covering everything and the side skirts just completely gone.

it’s not a bold claim, there’s been losses of tanks on both sides.

same tank, it’s a Ukrainian

edit: again, from days ago a abandoned Ukrainian tank.





either way, i guess unless we see a Z painted on the side or whatever we can’t be sure, so yeah i’ll take the claim back.
pretty sure it’s not a Russian one though.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

It would be crazy to agree to this. Ironically, the only safeguard Ukraine has to never have Russia invade again, is grant them NATO membership.

This will never happen, as there is an unwritten (maybe it's official) that a NATO candidate cannot be in conflict with another country, since in the event of war all the NATO members are obligated to help (Article 5 of NATO Charter):

“So the basic point is that it is Ukraine’s choice. Now, in practical terms, absorbing a nation with a simmering conflict with unresolved territorial disputes would obviously be difficult for NATO because NATO then absorbs that conflict,” he added.

 

[J3nga]

I'm affraid this negotiation is more of a telling "see what it leads to when you disobey and this was just a demo". I think Russia has passed the point of no return and going back empty handed at this point wouldn't make much sense to them. If Ukraine does not agree to their terms I think they might go in all guns blazing. Just my speculation, hope I'm wrong.

 

[Wildebeest]

I don't think there is any question of Ukraine joining NATO right now. But Ukraine is asking for special emergency membership of the EU. If the EU reaches out to them and decides to cooperate more closely on military matters, then this could be a real epochal moment which could obsolete NATO overnight. This is not what the US has wanted in the past, and more certainly not what Russia wants, as a militarized EU would be even more of a threat to their "interests" than an old defensive alliance that only the US and UK believed in until last week.

 

[Bragr]

Every time I enter this thread some random Ukrainian video starts playing.

 

[Vestal]

When even the Swiss get involved you know you fucked up..

 

[jufonuk]

When even the Swiss get involved you know you fucked up..

Yup

 

[Insane Metal]

Damn the Russian economy is at the bottom of the pit right now.

 

[chromhound]

 

[Hari Seldon]

It seems like tanks and heavy vehicles in general are pretty useless up against a nation with modern anti-tank weapons. But the biggest surprise so far is Russia's inability to control the skies. That is the 1 thing that I thought would be easy for them. What Ukraine needs besides more anti-tank and AA is some ability to strike back at the artillery. Maybe we can give them armed drones? That way US drone pilots can get into the action with completely plausible deniability because we "gave them" to the Ukraine.

 

[STARSBarry]

it’s not a bold claim, there’s been losses of tanks on both sides.

same tank, it’s a Ukrainian

edit: again, from days ago a abandoned Ukrainian tank.





either way, i guess unless we see a Z painted on the side or whatever we can’t be sure, so yeah i’ll take the claim back.
pretty sure it’s not a Russian one though.

No I concede the wreckage is most likely Ukranian, 100% a T-64 by the road wheel's, which as far as I am aware the Russians don't use their T-64's anymore, unless they pulled them out of reserve.

Interestingly the video and the photo you linked look like the same tank, but their not, the photo is a T-72 because the additional sighting for Infared is placed on the right side of the vehicle while the road wheel's of the vehicle in the video are clearly T-64's which gave this additional addon placed on the left side of the gun, until it was removed in the T-64BM upgrade (Oplat), although the older T-64BV's still retain it



The roadwheels of the wreck.

 

[belmarduk]

Biden delivering the same message may make waves with Putin as we all know anything coming from him comes directly from the real folks in charge.

Who might that be? Reptilians? The Elders of Zion perhaps?

 

[IDKFA]

More war crime footage

 

[Vestal]

More war crime footage

SICK MOTHER FUCKERS

 

[Mohonky]

It still makes zero sense to nuke Kyiv, calm your tits about that happening

That's the point though; in a war that makes literally no sense, nothing is off the table; especially if it means in Putins case, just saving face or trying trying to inflict as much hurt as possible before going down. There's no winning for Russia, even if they did take Ukraine. He has tanked his economy and the only allies he will have left are a bunch of small dictatorships noone else wants to sell weapons to. His most powerful ally (if you can call it that) is China and they only have an interest in Russia whilst it suits their needs. When / if they have nothing they can sell or buy from Russia, they will lose interest.