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Scientists claim to have found Atlantis

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NotWii

Banned
Shick Brithouse said:
Isn't the structure you posted somewhere off the coast of Japan? It's amazing that it predates the pyramids by about 7,000 years.

As far as Dwarka goes, I heard some of the relics they found date back almost 25k years, predating what archaeologists believe when modern man had the capability to build such things.

Really interesting stuff.
Some discoveries were made last year that pushed human mariners back a few thousand years.
And then there's things that should not exist like the the Antikythera Device and Ashoka's Pillar

Amir0x said:
no i'd rather take those because ATLANTIS DOESN'T EXIST but at least those people in the show sorta exist, in some parallel universe at the very least
In 2000 years you will be a myth too! :D

UltimaKilo said:
Watching men, women and children die by the thousands would have been spectacular to witness? You need your head examined.
WTF? I wasn't even thinking of that, you need YOUR head examined
 

Loxley

Member
Scientists, pff. Nic Cage would find it and bang hot German chicks in a comfy 100-minute time-slot.



We could get that shit found by lunch, and clearly the guy needs money, so get crackin'.
 

Cartman86

Banned
Let's say Plato wasn't speaking in metaphor.

Plato wrote about Atlantis thousands of years after it was supposed to have occurred. He had knowledge of this place, because of the handing down of a verbal record. That's not evidence. Does Plato's account that the city was founded by half-god's likely as well? I know the response to this would be that The Odyssey and Illiad had references to the supernatural as does the bible, and yet some of those cities actually existed. Of course Spider-man has references to the real city of New York too. The point is that the story told by Plato of this Utopian city created by godlike people that sank into the ocean, because of their hubris is quite a bit different than "Hey we found this small little city that's under the ocean and it was called Atlantis." It's cool that we found such a thing so long after, but there is no rational reason to believe it exists now, and if found there is no reason to think it's somehow special compared to every other city destroyed by natural disasters.

Mr. Freund’s discovery in central Spain of a strange series of “memorial cities,” built in Atlantis’ image by its refugees after the city’s likely destruction by a tsunami, gave researchers added proof and confidence, he said.

Atlantis residents who did not perish in the tsunami fled inland and built new cities there, he added.

The team’s findings will be unveiled on Sunday in “Finding Atlantis,” a new National Geographic Channel special.

While it is hard to know with certainty that the site in Spain in Atlantis, Mr. Freund said the “twist” of finding the memorial cities makes him confident Atlantis was buried in the mud flats on Spain’s southern coast.

I really want to know what these memorial cities are. Like there are writings on walls saying "in memoriam of the brave souls who lost their lives in Atlantis 10 years ago" Or was it "Oh I loved Plato's story let's build cities that looks like Atlantis?"

Also it's Monday night and no-one is talking about this special which aired yesterday. Must have been conclusive!
 

Torquill

Member
Deku said:
Spain would be barbarian country at that time. Thera thrived a thousand years before the Greek golden age, which in turn arrived long before Rome and the conquest of Spain.

As for your Phoenician colony theory, the Phoenicians did settle as far west as Spain, it wouldn't make much sense that subsequent Phoenician settlements would not have a memory of this. The most successful Phoenician colony in written history is Carthage.

Thera seems like a better fit. And it would explain the rise and fall of the Minoans, which is geographically closer to Tyre, and the other near east civilizations (Hitties and Egypt) and most importantly, it is close to the Greek mainland.

Plato is a Greek writing about Atlantis. To the greek world, Spain was at the ends of the world, not its centre.

RE: knowing company who provided expertise for documentary - are you talking about the link I gave?
But doesn't Plato's description place it at "edge of the earth" or something? Doesn't it also place it near the pillars of Hercules which was near Gibraltar?
 

ngower

Member
Didn't Plato, when referring to the Pillar of Heracles, mean the Straits of Gibralter? If so, why the hell would Atlantis be hundreds of miles away?

Also, again I may be wrong, but Plato was referring to his ideal authoritarian state brought forth in The Republic in, I believe, in the Timeaus when he's talking about this city, no? Our friend likes to make a lot of **** up to support his arguments.
 

HeySeuss

Member
Wii said:
Some discoveries were made last year that pushed human mariners back a few thousand years.
And then there's things that should not exist like the the Antikythera Device and Ashoka's Pillar
That device is amazing. It's really too bad we can only speculate what it might have been used for. It's too bad that it doesn't get as much time in the limelight considering how important of a discovery it was.

To think 2,000 years ago that there were mechanical devices with multiple gears and such. Makes you wonder what they were really capable of.

Personally I think that device was used as some sort of calendar or star chart to navigate the sea with.
 
I just looked up that Antikythera device thing and I was amazed. Man, such mystery. The reconstructed device looks pretty cool too. Wiki calls it the first analog computer and the oldest known complex scientific calculator.
 
Shick Brithouse said:
That device is amazing. It's really too bad we can only speculate what it might have been used for. It's too bad that it doesn't get as much time in the limelight considering how important of a discovery it was.

I know, might be plenty of other similar devices we haven't found yet.

ngower said:
Didn't Plato, when referring to the Pillar of Heracles, mean the Straits of Gibralter? If so, why the hell would Atlantis be hundreds of miles away?

That's where the thing they've found is. I'm not sure why there's a circled spot in the mid Atlantic in the OP.
 

Gorgon

Member
Cartman86 said:
I really want to know what these memorial cities are. Like there are writings on walls saying "in memoriam of the brave souls who lost their lives in Atlantis 10 years ago" Or was it "Oh I loved Plato's story let's build cities that looks like Atlantis?"

Also it's Monday night and no-one is talking about this special which aired yesterday. Must have been conclusive!


There are no memorial cities. That's the mumbo jumbo that an american "scientist" who worked some time with the real spanish sciestists pulled out of his ass for the National Geographic "show".

Wii said:
Some discoveries were made last year that pushed human mariners back a few thousand years.
And then there's things that should not exist like the the Antikythera Device and Ashoka's Pillar

What discoveries?

As for the Antikythera Device and Ashoka's Pillar, none of those is a level of "should not exist". It's like saying that samurai swords should not exist. They show adavnced knowledge that was at the top of theoretical knowledge in astronomy and mettalurgy, but far from beying "impossible to such a level of civilization".

As for Yonaguni, it's far from beying proved they are man-made:

"I'm not convinced that any of the major features or structures are manmade steps or terraces, but that they're all natural," said Robert Schoch, a professor of science and mathematics at Boston University who has dived at the site.

"It's basic geology and classic stratigraphy for sandstones, which tend to break along planes and give you these very straight edges, particularly in an area with lots of faults and tectonic activity."

And neither the Japanese government's Agency for Cultural Affairs nor the government of Okinawa Prefecture recognize the remains off Yonaguni as an important cultural property, said agency spokesperson Emiko Ishida.

He [Robert Schoch] also observes that on the northeast coast of Yonaguni there are regular formations similar to those seen at the Monument

There was a TV program in which these other formations were shown, as I recollect seeying them. Many of them are above sea level linked to the coast and for the trained geologist eye, they look nothing like artificial monuments. There's probably photos on the webs too.


Boston University's Schoch, meanwhile, is just as certain that the Yonaguni formations are natural.

He suggests that holes in the rock, which Kimura believes were used to support posts, were merely created by underwater eddies scouring at depressions.

Lines of smaller holes were formed by marine creatures exploiting a seam in the rock, he said.

"The first time I dived there, I knew it was not artificial," Schoch said. "It's not as regular as many people claim, and the right angles and symmetry don't add up in many places."

He emphasizes that he is not accusing anyone of deliberately falsifying evidence.

But many of the photos tend to give a perfect view of the site, making the lines look as regular as possible, he said.

Schoch also says he has seen what Kimura believes to be renderings of animals and human faces at the site.

"Professor Kimura says he has seen some kind of writing or images, but they are just scratches on a rock that are natural," he said.

"He interprets them as being manmade, but I don't know where he's coming from."


But Kimura is undeterred by critics, adding that the new governor of Okinawa Prefecture and officials from the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization have recently expressed interest in verifying the site.

"The best way to get a definitive answer about their origins is to keep going back and collecting more evidence," he continued.


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/09/070919-sunken-city.html
http://www.robertschoch.net/Enigmatic Yonaguni Underwater RMS CT.htm


Now, it's not impossible the structures are artificial. If they are, the most probable explanation would be that they were modified from existing rock characteristics, and that would still be extremely interesting on it's own. But showing fancy photos and claiming it's proven they are manmade and old as fuck is not science, it's whishfull thinking and deception, just like that american guy who took advantage of the serious research of spanish investigators.
 

Deku

Banned
Torquill said:
But doesn't Plato's description place it at "edge of the earth" or something? Doesn't it also place it near the pillars of Hercules which was near Gibraltar?

Plato set the city beyond the pillars of Heracles, which would put in the Atlantic, hence the ocean was named after it.

But again, he was making essentially a political argument for the Athenians not to get too cocky.

Setting it anywhere in the Aegean would have been weird. This would be like a contemporary telling an allegory about US power and setting it in Germany, a US ally, instead of a galaxy far far away.

If you take Plato's location of Atlantis on face problem, The real problem with a civilization out in the hinterlands is it almost requires leaps of faith, 'alien technology' etc. for it to be that advanced that early in human history that far away from everyone else.

All the other civilizations of that period were clustered around Asia and North Africa. With the Mediterranean civilizations being essentially the furthest flung appendage of these civilizations (ie: in a non eurocentric world - the minoans were the northern frontrier civilization of a civilization centered in africa around Egypt and Nubia). Even the 'remote' Hittite empire which was lost to history until only about 100 years ago, is situated in Anatolia in modern day Turkey.

Not that it will convince the 'believers'. As I noted, the myth of Atlantis is based on an allegory. Those who believe it is based in part to historical fact has free reign to pick and choose which facts they consider 'real' and which facts they consider to be based on Plato's imagination. It's just that the reputable archeologists/historians place a higher standard on what facts they consider to be based on the memory of a city vs. the nutters who tend to want to believe in the most fantastical theories.

RE: Memorial cities - based on all the news reports, there is zero archelogy so far to back those up. It seems like they found cities or even natural rock formations arranged in patterns that matched Plato's description of Atlantis and jumped to conclusions. To get a sweet TV deal and funding no doubt. Unless we get strong archeological evidence, and the Theran theory has actual archeology behind it -- not to mention real proof of a cataclysmic event 3500 years ago (1000 years before Plato wrote of Atlantis), then its all speculative.
 

MrHicks

Banned
Forbidden-Archeology-9780892132942.jpg


read it
many archeological discoveries that "don't make sense" get pushed aside and simply ignored

cause if they don't ignore them our whole understanding of human history needs a reboot

too many vested interests to keep the status quo going
 

Deku

Banned
MrHicks said:
Forbidden-Archeology-9780892132942.jpg


read it
many archeological discoveries that "don't make sense" get pushed aside and simply ignored

cause if they don't ignore them our whole understanding of human history needs a reboot

too many vested interests to keep the status quo going

no thanks.
 
MrHicks said:
http://images.betterworldbooks.com/089/Forbidden-Archeology-9780892132942.jpg[/I]

read it
many archeological discoveries that "don't make sense" get pushed aside and [B]simply ignored[/B]

cause if they don't ignore them our whole understanding of human history needs a reboot

too many vested interests to keep the status quo going[/QUOTE]
I've read that. Good book but like anything else it only means as much as the faith you put in it. I don't think the multiple extinction periods idea is so far fetched nor do I understant why Darwinist have been so appalled by the theory.
 

lethial

Reeeeeeee
Ah yes, the yearly Atlantis is found show. Can't wait to see where they find it next year, it's like Carmen Sandiego!
 

Slayven

Member
Human beings as we know them been around what roughly a million years? And civilizations started springing up about 4 thousand years ago? That was alot of time for us to just to be twiddling our thumbs and hanging out in caves.
 
nib95 said:
Daily Mail regularly make up shit and get caught doing so. Don't give them hits.

If you scrolled down the thread, you'd see tons of other news sites reported this too, including Reuters.
 

Gorgon

Member
MrHicks said:
Forbidden-Archeology-9780892132942.jpg


read it
many archeological discoveries that "don't make sense" get pushed aside and simply ignored

cause if they don't ignore them our whole understanding of human history needs a reboot

too many vested interests to keep the status quo going


Michael A. Cremo (born July 15, 1948, Schenectady, New York), also known as Drutakarma Dasa, is an American Hindu creationist whose work argues that modern humans have lived on the earth for billions of years.[1] Cremo's antievolutionist book Forbidden Archeology has attracted attention from Hindu creationists and paranormalists,[2] but has been criticized for ignorance of basic archeology[3][4] and has been described as pseudoscience by representatives of the mainstream archaelogical and paleoanthropologist community.[5][6] Cremo has referred to himself as a "Vedic creationist."

Forbidden Archeology has been criticized for failing to test simpler hypotheses before proceeding to propose more complex ones (a violation of Occam's razor) and for cherry picking outdated evidence (often from the 19th and early 20th century) that supports their position while ignoring or ridiculing more recent information that refutes or challenges their claims.[16] Tom Morrow of the National Center for Science Education noted that Cremo's "specimens no longer exist" and called his work pseudoscience.[1]

His book Human Devolution, which like Forbidden Archeology claims that modern man has existed for millions of years, attempts to prove this by citing "every possible research into the paranormal ever conducted anywhere to 'prove' the truth of holist Vedic cosmology which proposes the presence of a spiritual element in all matter (which takes different forms, thereby explaining the theory of 'devolution')."

Thanks, but I think I'll pass.
 

Gorgon

Member
By the way, does anyone knows what Indian site is that in which there seems to be stone walkways turned upside down and shit? I remember seeying that in an old TV series or program made by russians, one of those programs along the lines of "the aliens have been here and built the pyramids". They claimed it could be the result of one of the wars in the Vedas.

I've always been curious to check that up for curiosities sake but I have no clue what site that is.
 

qcf x2

Member
When this is in the National Geographic magazine I'll be less skeptical. Their channel along with History Channel have cried wolf far too many times to be respected with this sort of thing. With that said, I think it's great that something was discovered, even if it wasn't Atlantis. It could still be fascinating/revealing, who knows?


Also, no Secret of Blue Water pics yet?
 
Deku said:
RE: Memorial cities - based on all the news reports, there is zero archelogy so far to back those up. It seems like they found cities or even natural rock formations arranged in patterns that matched Plato's description of Atlantis and jumped to conclusions. To get a sweet TV deal and funding no doubt. Unless we get strong archeological evidence, and the Theran theory has actual archeology behind it -- not to mention real proof of a cataclysmic event 3500 years ago (1000 years before Plato wrote of Atlantis), then its all speculative.

I watched this show the other night. It was interesting, however, as with all Simcha Jacobovici productions, it should be taken primarily as entertainment.

What they claimed to be memorial cities (I believe they mentioned 2), were actual ancient cities located in Spain that have been excavated (I don't think they ever mentioned a date, mind you). What is highly questionable is their association with Atlantis/Tartessos/Tarshish, which the program theorizes are all one in the same. Their evidence for the identification as a memorial city is a carving of a man next to some concentric circles, which is claimed to be the emblem of Atlantis.

What they have not done is excavate underneath the mud plains, where satellite imagery apparently reveals a formation (I'm guessing a natural one, but who really knows without digging it up?) which seems to coincide with the concentric circles and Temple of Poseidon described in Plato's account.

The stones they turned up underwater all appeared to be natural formations, similar to those "steps" off the coast of Japan. Their logic for searching there was that the tsunami would have buried part of the city, but also carried some traces of it back out to sea.

All in all, it definitely wasn't the worst hour of my life, but I would go around saying this is anywhere near a scientific reporting of the facts. I still think Santorini is the basis of the myth, but the fact that Plato clearly states that the city was located beyond the Pillars of Heracles still lingers in my mind.
 
Göbekli Tepe turned everything we know about the ancient world on it's head practically overnight. Stone pillars and carved reliefs 6000 years before stonehenge, a settlement built around it dated 9000BC. Chances are there's civilizations older than ancient sumer.
 

Suairyu

Banned
Shick Brithouse said:
Troy was a myth until they found it, as was Jericho. I think it existed at one time, but not as the advanced futuristic civilization that the conspiracy theorists claim.
The difference is, people back then believed Troy to exist, just people now didn't. Until it was found, obviously.

Whereas with Atlantis, people back then didn't believe it to exist. There is only one historic reference to Atlantis that survives and in classical antiquity that reference wasn't given any credence. The myth of Atlantis is mostly a modern one.

There have been more than a few cities lost because of flooding over thousands of years, any one of which could have inspired the myths of Atlantis. But the Atlantian civilisation? An entire nation wiped out due to the loss of one singular city getting flooded?

Nope.
 

Deku

Banned
I'm usually not one to decry lack of reading comprehension because it's just an ad homenim applied liberally in the middle of a heated argument, but the folks commenting on 'X was a myth' 'X was found' therefore ' Atlantis will be found' needs some reading comprehension, logic course and a history lesson.

1. The Trojan wars were a historical event, backed up by primary sources at the time, including clay tablets referring to the city found in Hattusha. Historians now believe Troy was a vassal city under the Hittite sphere. Though there was likely not a single epic battle as depicted in most accounts, but several battles. Helen of Troy remains an enigmatic figure.

It was a distant event, and the city itself was lost to history. But that is not the same as beign a myth, as it was eventually found.

2. Plato is not a historian, whilst Troy was mentioned by historical recollections of the time, Atlantis was never mentioned by anyone other than Plato.

3. Plato's Atlantis was an allegory in a political missive, warning Athenians on the dangers of power.

4. Many historians the myth of Atlantis is based on real fact. But unlike nutters claiming aliens, or a sunken Greco Roman city with perfect columns somewhere in the Atlantic, The core of the story is probably based on a trading island of the Minoan civilization located in the Aegean. The Island (actually a volcano) blew up in 1500 BC. Obliterating what would have been the city in the middle of the crater, and burying an outlying town on the Island in ash. This town is now being excavated by archelogists.

Crete itself was deluged by a giant tsunami from this event. So the memory of an advanced civilization being 'sunk' looks more plausible as a composite story of a catastrophic event than a singular city.

Bonus: The minoan civilization did decline rapidly after the explosion at Thera, and became the vassals of the Myceneans on mianland Greece. Mycenae is located in Laconia, the Spartan homeland. And from this place, a princess would latern be born. Helen of Sparta. Most of us know of her as Helen of Troy.
 
Suairyu said:
There have been more than a few cities lost because of flooding over thousands of years, any one of which could have inspired the myths of Atlantis. But the Atlantian civilisation? An entire nation wiped out due to the loss of one singular city getting flooded?

Nope.
Wouldn't Atlantis be a city state in the same way as Athens and Sparta instead of a country (if it did exist, which I doubt also)?
 

soqquatto

Member
Deku said:
I'm usually not one to decry lack of reading comprehension because it's just an ad homenim applied liberally in the middle of a heated argument, but the folks commenting on 'X was a myth' 'X was found' therefore ' Atlantis will be found' needs some reading comprehension, logic course and a history lesson.

1. The Trojan wars were a historical event, backed up by primary sources at the time, including clay tablets referring to the city found in Hattusha. Historians now believe Troy was a vassal city under the Hittite sphere. Though there was likely not a single epic battle as depicted in most accounts, but several battles. Helen of Troy remains an enigmatic figure.

It was a distant event, and the city itself was lost to history. But that is not the same as beign a myth, as it was eventually found.

2. Plato is not a historian, whilst Troy was mentioned by historical recollections of the time, Atlantis was never mentioned by anyone other than Plato.

3. Plato's Atlantis was an allegory in a political missive, warning Athenians on the dangers of power.

4. Many historians the myth of Atlantis is based on real fact. But unlike nutters claiming aliens, or a sunken Greco Roman city with perfect columns somewhere in the Atlantic, The core of the story is probably based on a trading island of the Minoan civilization located in the Aegean. The Island (actually a volcano) blew up in 1500 BC. Obliterating what would have been the city in the middle of the crater, and burying an outlying town on the Island in ash. This town is now being excavated by archelogists.

Crete itself was deluged by a giant tsunami from this event. So the memory of an advanced civilization being 'sunk' looks more plausible as a composite story of a catastrophic event than a singular city.

Bonus: The minoan civilization did decline rapidly after the explosion at Thera, and became the vassals of the Myceneans on mianland Greece. Mycenae is located in Laconia, the Spartan homeland. And from this place, a princess would latern be born. Helen of Sparta. Most of us know of her as Helen of Troy.

don't you dare using history, logic and facts in this thread!
 
krypt0nian said:
How is this thread still going?

There is no such thing as Atlantis.

I don't really care if there is or isn't to be honest, but any reasonable way you can disprove other than "LOL Atlantis is myth noobz derp"?
 
MrHicks said:
Forbidden-Archeology-9780892132942.jpg


read it
many archeological discoveries that "don't make sense" get pushed aside and simply ignored

cause if they don't ignore them our whole understanding of human history needs a reboot

too many vested interests to keep the status quo going


I actually have this book. Havent read it though.
 

gunther

Member
People shouldn't complain about this kind of threads. The amount of useful and awesome information that is used to refute the tinfoilf's make it worth it.
 
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