Support NeoGAF

[block tower]

Then I guess looking on it your way, the currently ongoing reverse racism in South Africa is A-OK, because of "history".

as far as im concerned history is still being made in that country. while im not condoning whats going on, it IS directly tied to the history of the country, it's not something that is random, it is reactionary of South Africa's history.

 

[besada]

Imagine the outrage if someone made a white only group?

False Equivalence 101. Either you are incapable of seeing the difference between a historically oppressed minority group and and a historically oppressive majority group or you can see the difference and are engaging in a completely disingenuous comparison.

Which one is it?

 

[inm8num2]

People take video games way to seriously, unhealthy even.

No better way to start the week than some gaming-related toxicity.

If people are feeling uncomfortable in a community, then it's something that should be addressed. That said, I think the male-dominated nature of gaming or just online forums in general is a very tricky thing to tackle. If the SC community is as bad as I'm led to believe, the user's idea for a females-only group was sure to backfire. I'm not putting blame on her at all, but just commenting on how depressing it is that these kinds of reactions and controversies are so commonplace.

 

[ElFly]

i had to edit my response a bit to include why, refer back to my previous post thats been edited. mainly physical contact, albeit violent or physical contact. to be blunt Lisa Leslie a WNBA star could've never competed at the level someone like Kobe Bryant plays at. that's not a sexist remark, that's just fact. Kobe Bryant, whether due to his physical biology or natural talent, plays at a higher level of basketball than Lisa Leslie. the WNBA would likely want to retain the league being all women to keep any women in the sport at all. most low level NBA players are head and shoulders above most WNBA players, if the WNBA were to allow men into the league you would see the WNBA quickly transom into the NBA#2. so to keep it exclusionary is to allow women the opportunity to play basketball at the pro level among other women.

I get all this.

But why didn't the poker tournament enforce the "girls only" rule when the WNBA can. Why is the poker tourney open to everyone and the gender part only applied as a suggestion instead of a rule. Normally a judge will have ultimate decision making, if the poker judge disqualifies the guy for being a dude, there's nothing he can do.

Imagine the same guy entering a WNBA team and going "you can't keep me out of the team, it would be discrimination". That would not fly.

 

[Olli128]

This comparison is never really valid and anyone making it is being willingly obtuse about the ongoing history of women and bigotry.

Well done to focus on the one part of my post which was a hypothetical consideration and not my thoughts on the actual situation.

Also clinging onto "history" is a sure fire way to never move forward, how can we have social equality if certain groups want privileges to make up for past wrongs?

If this was a group formed by women in cape town for "safe discussion" that would be totally understandable and encouraged, but when it's an internet board for a videogame populated in the majority by young westerners and moderated to stamp out sexism,racism etc there is no need.

 

[PBY]

Well done to focus on the one part of my post which was a hypothetical consideration and not my thoughts on the actual situation.

Also clinging onto "history" is a sure fire way to never move forward, how can we have social equality if certain groups want privileges to make up for past wrongs?

If this was a group formed by women in cape town for "safe discussion" that would be totally understandable and encouraged, but when it's an internet board for a videogame populated in the majority by young westerners and moderated to stamp out sexism,racism etc there is no need.

Racism and sexism are over now?

Come onnnnnnn

 

[Patryn]

Discriminating someone else should not be the way to make that happen though, it's EQUALLY BAD, and will only make the problem worse.

How will it make the problem worse? What do you define as "the problem"?

 

[piratepwnsninja]

I do actually have issues with your scenario actually. I have seen people feel hurt because they were inherently excluded from a fun friend hang out simply because they were born with a different sex than the required for that evening.

That's my whole point really. Why not let the girls/guys tag along to your night out and discuss what you wanted regardless? If they find themselves not interested in the conversation, then hey, no harm done, they know for next time.

I have never personally done an "x night out" sort of thing. I pretty much tend to invite everyone whose company I enjoy to whatever I do

This is more applicable in the real world, where social dynamics such as ostracizing offensive individuals is more apt to happen. In the world of the interwebs, in which anonymity is a thing, it is much more difficult to handle. Until your real name is attached to who you are on a forum/game/whatever, some people are willing to say things so much more incredibly vile than they'd every state in a real life setting.

 

[-tetsuo-]

False Equivalence 101. Either you are incapable of seeing the difference between a historically oppressed minority group and and a historically oppressive majority group or you can see the difference and are engaging in a completely disingenuous comparison.

Which one is it?

Life is hard for the adult white male.

 

[Marcel]

If this was a group formed by women in cape town for "safe discussion" that would be totally understandable and encouraged, but when it's an internet board for a videogame populated in the majority by young westerners and moderated to stamp out sexism,racism etc there is no need.

There is no need because you say so? There is no need because we're not in a place where's it's significantly worse? There is no need because sexism is done in the West?

Give me a break.

 

[Cyrano]

as far as im concerned history is still being made in that country. while im not condoning whats going on, it IS directly tied to the history of the country, it's not something that is random, it is reactionary of South Africa's history.

Yeah, this. We are NOT talking about the history of South Africa in this thread. History and racism is different in different places and requires different solutions for those areas. We could have a hell of a discussion about racism and sexism in China or Japan but it would require having a specific knowledge about those areas and their institutional issues. Which I doubt most people here have in their lived, day-to-day lives. Being too broad makes any discussion tedious.

They recently had a talk about this discussing games in fact!
http://www.molleindustria.org/blog/making-games-in-a-fucked-up-world-games-for-change-2014/

 

[Tagyhag]

I don't see the harm in it, unless there are rules on the forum that state making an exclusive group like that isn't allowed. But since the thread is gone we won't be getting the full picture.

That said, regarding the other events like raping and space bikinis, this is a video game. They can add whatever they want to it and I won't be offended. If im already going to be murdering, my moral standards aren't too high to begin with. But it's not like any of that is going to reach the game, the controversy would just be too high.

 

[RicoTheMad]

This is more applicable in the real world, where social dynamics such as ostracizing offensive individuals is more apt to happen. In the world of the interwebs, in which anonymity is a thing, it is much more difficult to handle. Until your real name is attached to who you are on a forum/game/whatever, some people are willing to say things so much more incredibly vile than they'd every state in a real life setting.

This is why bans were invented

I think online interactions have a high potential for toxicity, due to the reasons you stated, exactly. I just happen to think that the solution to these problems is to encourage people to stop being jerks using the tools available to us, rather than lying down, accepting them, and hiding off in a corner somewhere together.

Ban them. Root them out. Don't let them destroy the chance to create better communities.

 

[Patryn]

This is why bans were invented

I think online interactions have a high potential for toxicity, due to the reasons you stated, exactly. I just happen to think that the solution to these problems is to encourage people to stop being jerks using the tools available to us, rather than lying down, accepting them, and hiding off in a corner somewhere together.

Ban them. Root them out. Don't let them destroy the chance to create better communities.

That's the utopian view of things. But clearly that isn't happening, so people are looking for a real-world solution.

 

[Olli128]

There is no need because you say so? There is no need because we're not in a place where's it's significantly worse? There is no need because sexism is done in the West?

Give me a break.

*Sigh* I give up on you because you're obviously just trying to win an argument instead of looking my arguments. We're not talking about the whole of western civilization we're talking about an internet board - a controlled moderated environment in all likelyhood run by people who aern't sexist.

Even if there is sexist people, look up contact theory. It's basically the idea that bringing oppressed and oppressor together for a common cause can lessen discrimination. Segregation has never lessened discrimination.

But I guess you will find something in my post to focus on without considering the entirety of what I've said.. again.

Oh and I'm not just talking out of my ass, I'm studying Anthropology and Social Policy at University. Weirdly writing about social equality right now but focused on Roma Gyspies

 

[Marcel]

This is why bans were invented

I think online interactions have a high potential for toxicity, due to the reasons you stated, exactly. I just happen to think that the solution to these problems is to encourage people to stop being jerks using the tools available to us, rather than lying down, accepting them, and hiding off in a corner somewhere together.

Ban them. Root them out. Don't let them destroy the chance to create better communities.

I'm not sure where you see the potential for growth in a such a gross and bigoted forum like the Star Citizen one but your naïveté still doesn't invalidate marginalized people seeking a safe haven from hateful garbage.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

Even if there is sexist people, look up contact theory. It's basically the idea that bringing oppressed and oppressor together for a common cause can lessen discrimination. Segregation has never lessened discrimination.

But I guess you will find something in my post to focus on without considering the entirety of what I've said.. again.

Pray, what is this 'common cause'? Discussing the details of a video game? What a noble one.

You're also providing a great false dichotomy there: implying women and trans* people will only interact and make contact with others 'like' them instead of talking to other people like normal human beings.

Marcel is finding something in your post to focus on because you need to be more concise and convincing with your arguments. Appealing to "it's the internet, come on" flies in the face of all other evidence provided and has never worked as a convincing justification.

 

[Marcel]

*Sigh* I give up on you because you're obviously just trying to win an argument instead of looking my arguments. We're not talking about the whole of western civilization we're talking about an internet board - a controlled moderated environment in all likelyhood run by people who aern't sexist.

Even if there is sexist people, look up contact theory. It's basically the idea that bringing oppressed and oppressor together for a common cause can lessen discrimination. Segregation has never lessened discrimination.

But I guess you will find something in my post to focus on without considering the entirety of what I've said.. again.

Oh and I'm not just talking out of my ass, I'm studying Anthropology and Social Policy at University. Weirdly writing about social equality right now but focused on Roma Gyspies

Segregation and "safe zones" for discussion are not the same thing. I'm not sure how it's hard to understand.

 

[robovanburen]

MMO's are full of cliques that players can't or won't join. What's one more? I really don't get why people have such a big issue with female gamers wanting to hang out with each other.

 

[Cyrano]

Oh and I'm not just talking out of my ass, I'm studying Anthropology and Social Policy at University. Weirdly writing about social equality right now but focused on Roma Gyspies

Don't do this, all this does is prove to others that you're privileged and believe you're talking from a pedestal. If people ask about your education specifically, feel free to respond, but stating it as if it reinforces your arguments is going to backfire.

Similarly, segregation is about large, institutional separation, not about small groups making decisions to have discussions in places they feel comfortable having those discussions.

 

[RicoTheMad]

I'm not where you see the potential for growth in a such a gross and bigoted forum like the Star Citizen one but your naïveté still doesn't invalidate marginalized people seeking a safe haven from hateful garbage.

My world view disagrees with yours, but the fact that you're calling it naive is fairly rude. I've experienced quite a bit of discrimination in my life and I'm simply sharing my personal world view of things that have worked for me. But I appreciate the irony of your attack and I respond to it by still continuing to not hide and speak my mind

Just because your view is jaded on the subject does not mean differing opinions do not work. We gain nothing from accepting the status quo and hiding. We gain everything from changing people for the better by engaging them in conversation.

Will everyone be receptive? No. But if you can open a few minds and your friends do the same, and their friends... well, that's a lot more open minds no? Progress isn't easy or quick, but nobody ever got ahead by quitting.

 

[Alienous]

False Equivalence 101. Either you are incapable of seeing the difference between a historically oppressed minority group and and a historically oppressive majority group or you can see the difference and are engaging in a completely disingenuous comparison.

Which one is it?

Even then granting inequality privileges doesn't work. There can't be collected credit, it undermines the idea of equality.

The post you responded to makes a valid point, if we truly aim to treat everyone as equals. It's part of the reason progress regarding the integration of different people takes so long. Many think (somewhat validly) that past events should be considered. But with humanity's grievous history it means that equality is far more difficult to achieve.

Nobody should be pigeonholed or excluded for circumstances out of their control. Nobody deserves different, or differently restrictive, treatment based on the things they have no control over. It doesn't matter if you're female, you can't be sexist.

 

[Olli128]

Pray, what is this 'common cause'? Discussing the details of a video game? What a noble one.

You're also providing a great false dichotomy there: women and trans* people will only interact and make contact with others 'like' them instead of talking to other people like normal human beings.

Marcel is finding something in your post to focus on because you need to be more concise and convincing with your arguments. Appealing to "it's the internet, come on" flies in the face of all other evidence provided and has never worked as a convincing justification.

1.) Why does it need to be a noble cause to foster friendship and lessen discrimination? Have you made all your friends by discussing some noble cause?

2.) That's not what contact theory says at all, it says that the oppressor has a false image of the oppressed (dehumanized or negatively stereotyped) and contact is a way to prove it wrong

3.) That's also not what I said, I said it's a heavily moderated environment, which it is.

So far all I've had is replies is people twisting my words to fit their beliefs.

Don't do this, all this does is prove to others that you're privileged and believe you're talking from a pedestal. If people ask about your education specifically, feel free to respond, but stating it as if it reinforces your arguments is going to backfire.

Similarly, segregation is about large, institutional separation, not about small groups making decisions to have discussions in places they feel comfortable having those discussions.

True on the first point, my bad just thought I should point out I'm not making stuff up on my own. Segregation can be on a micro or macro scale, self enforced or enforced by others. The dictionary definition is "the action or state of setting someone or something apart from others." and has nothing to do with scale.

Segregation and "safe zones" for discussion are not the same thing. I'm not sure how it's hard to understand.

See above. I'm not against safe zones where it's needed but for a community discussion board I think it would do more harm than good.

 

[Easy_D]

Yeah, there's a strong correlation between people who like space simulators and sexism!


............................

Something something group think something something group norms.

 

[Marcel]

True on the first point, my bad just thought I should point out I'm not making stuff up on my own. Segregation can be on a micro or macro scale, self enforced or enforced by others. The dictionary definition is "the action or state of setting someone or something apart from others." and has nothing to do with scale.

Pedantry doesn't really help your case or prove anything substantive either.

 

[Durante]

From everything I have learned playing MMOs, making a group the membership of which certifies beyond all doubt your real-life gender sounds like a terrible idea.

 

[Cyrano]

True on the first point, my bad just thought I should point out I'm not making stuff up on my own.

If this is what you intended, you can do that with sources and evidence, hearsay and opinion will not have much weight.

Segregation can be on a micro or macro scale, self enforced or enforced by others. The dictionary definition is "the action or state of setting someone or something apart from others." and has nothing to do with scale.

We could debate about language all day, but segregation is generally an institutional term. Small groups deciding to move around common beliefs is not segregation. The bigger thing I think you're missing is that segregation is also (typically) forced exclusion and not voluntary exclusion.

 

[Kinyou]

Pedantry doesn't really help your case or prove anything substantive either.

You tried to correct him on the use of the word, he responded that he used it in a correct way, how's that pedantry?

 

[Olli128]

Pedantry doesn't really help your case or prove anything substantive either.

Yet pointing out minor details without taking the argument as a whole is what you've done this entire thread.

If this is what you intended, you can do that with sources and evidence, hearsay and opinion will not have much weight.

We could debate about language all day, but segregation is generally an institutional term. Small groups deciding to move around common beliefs is not segregation. The bigger thing I think you're missing is that segregation is also (typically) forced exclusion and not voluntary exclusion.

1.) Yeap you're right, already said it was uneeded.



2.) The meaning of a word can vary depending on where you're from and how it's used in everyday language, that's why I used the dictionary definition so we could have a discussion with clear meaning of the word. And no small groups moving around common beliefs is not segregation, groups who do that and then disallow anyone else to interact or discuss those beliefs however is something different. Lastly in this case the form of segregation we are discussing IS a voluntary exclusion. This post has pretty much just been a discussion on semantics which I don't think really adds anything.

You'd want to be addressing Cyrano, not me, since the answer wasn't addressed to me at all. And as Cyrano said, Olli is not really coming at this with any nuance, just dictionary definitions and beating his chest about how he is writing a paper for university. I correctly addressed it as pedantry.

And this is why I'm giving up on you for good this time, you don't make any arguments you're just getting annoyed and throwing insults around. I'm just stating my opinion and you're welcome to disagree me, but I can't really discuss it with you if you wont listen to what I have to say.

But you're not really the best judge of that, are you? The people who are in a reasonable place to judge whether a safe space is needed are those who would use the safe space. And at least some of them are saying they do -- in fact -- need a safe space.

I may not be the best judge but I'm still allowed to argue my opinion if I want to If I was in charge of that board I can't say for certain I'd do what the moderator did, the backlash would be too high and it's not really a huge problem even if I think it's a bad idea. Still interesting to argue on the rights and wrongs of it though.

 

[besada]

Even then granting inequality privileges doesn't work.

Well, you say it doesn't work. That's certainly an opinion. But the history of civil rights suggests that safe spaces for minorities are actually pretty useful, allowing them to communicate an organize without having to waste time every three seconds responding to terrible false equivalence arguments.

As tempting as it is to pretend history doesn't exist, to start over from now, so no one needs to feel uncomfortable and we can all pretend we live in a society that treats everyone equally -- that's not actually the world we live in.

See above. I'm not against safe zones where it's needed but for a community discussion board I think it would do more harm than good.

But you're not really the best judge of that, are you? The people who are in a reasonable place to judge whether a safe space is needed are those who would use the safe space. And at least some of them are saying they do -- in fact -- need a safe space.

 

[Minsc]

From everything I have learned playing MMOs, making a group the membership of which certifies beyond all doubt your real-life gender sounds like a terrible idea.

Maybe they'd get to use their own girl-only official servers if CIG gives them their own sub-forums... even if not, the game supports running non-official servers, so they could play on their own galaxies separate from the rest of everyone else.

It almost makes me wish they'd make a special section of the forum/game for people who are kinder and better-spoken, all the hating/immature/annoying people would not be allowed on, this way men who can't join the friendlier group of women only forums and who don't want to deal with seeing all the non-sense like bikini and rape threads don't have to deal with it either.

 

[BumblebeeCody]

Very true highschool boys teams have beaten womens olympic teams in hockey and soccer. Letting males in Wnba would push women out.


Womens bball plays with smaller ball and shorter 3 point line also.

The more you know.

That being said, this is an internet forum/game though which doesn't require the comparison of the physical attributes of genders. Games are more of a mental challenge in which men and women are the same so I think the idea of "no boys allowed(segregation)" is stupid, but the idea that "just don't be a dick and we can all get along(Safe Zone)" is a good idea.
I honestly have to admit that I'm not to fond of the idea of separating people, as I'm someone who generally doesn't care about defining other people, but I completely see the point as to why "girl-only" sections/forums/servers occur. Gaming just hasn't reached that maturity yet. You can't blame 'em for wanting one.

 

[Marcel]

You tried to correct him on the use of the word, he responded that he used it in a correct way, how's that pedantry?

You'd want to be addressing Cyrano, not me, since the answer wasn't addressed to me at all. And as Cyrano said, Olli is not really coming at this with any nuance, just dictionary definitions and beating his chest about how he is writing a paper for university. I correctly addressed it as pedantry.

 

[doomquake]

"Rape should be in the game because Pirates.."

Don't they see that this game will never be made? Seems like a huge Roleplay and fanfiction fest on those forums.

 

[Orayn]

From everything I have learned playing MMOs, making a group the membership of which certifies beyond all doubt your real-life gender sounds like a terrible idea.

Terrible only by virtue of the way these things have gone historically. They're definitely kicking the hornet's nest, but maybe they'll have some success in dealing with the hornets this time.

 

[PaulExcellent]

So giving them a separate thread or group to post in and socialize is bad because only girls would be allowed to post? Is that the problem?
I understand why some other uses might not want a secondary group where women are exclusive posters, as it would exclude them from other users, but it seems silly to get so angry about it. It's an internet forum to talk about a video game. Not a big deal. They can keep posting whatever they want in the full forum without any interruption, so what's the deal?

 

[King Mac of Furry Frog]

Sexism in forum.....men can't join..

 

[LoveCake]

Really sucks for the women, but i can see where people are coming from where communities restricted to one gender may not be the best idea.

I think this is the issue as well, i think as gamers we should be as one, of course gaming is considered more a male oriented hobby, i am not sure of the actual statistics but for proper gaming & by this i mean not limited to phone games, i would think there are still more males playing games than females, but the gap is closing, i would think it's M65-70/45-30F so there will be a more male aspect to comments & threads, i think it is more the abusive & patronising comments you see posted to girl/women gamers & maybe this is why they want a place of their own, in the long run i think it's a bad idea.

I have not read through all the links/content in the OP but my guess is that although LAURESH had her own viewpoint & opinions which is fine, but maybe in some instances went too far & did not know when to stop typing during flaming/trolling by other members, we have all done this before & will do again in the future (things can escalate very fast in online forums), maybe it could've been handled better by the staff as well perhaps.

We have only heard one side of the story really, so there may be a lot more to it, but there could well be a momentum gathering behind this.

 

[Marcel]

Yet pointing out minor details without taking the argument as a whole is what you've done this entire thread.

You opened with basically the most derivative false equivalence bullshit you could come up with and it has leaked through a lot of your other arguments. I'm sorry that your poor first impression has shown through.

 

[backlot]

2.) That's not what contact theory says at all, it says that the oppressor has a false image of the oppressed (dehumanized or negatively stereotyped) and contact is a way to prove it wrong

But as MadJackChurchill said, the women taking part in this group would still be making contact with the larger community. We're not talking about separating women from the rest of the community entirely.

 

[Unmoses]

This is why bans were invented

I think online interactions have a high potential for toxicity, due to the reasons you stated, exactly. I just happen to think that the solution to these problems is to encourage people to stop being jerks using the tools available to us, rather than lying down, accepting them, and hiding off in a corner somewhere together.

Ban them. Root them out. Don't let them destroy the chance to create better communities.

Agreed, and those reasons are also why it's incredibly difficult to manage these forums. I've been a moderator for other sports forums (if you think vg / official forums are bad...) and have even been part of old email lists dating back to the 90s where this stuff was still prevalent. The real problem lies with the fact that a small proportion of the toxic crowd truly act that way in general. The rest are just in a gleeful churn of anonymity and don't follow the theme "off-line". How do you prevent typically normal people who turn evil at the loss of a face-to-face.

We ran the sports forums with a pretty low tolerance for the bs and it worked out well, but as the mods moved on and the tolerance dropped the place immediately turned into a cesspool. As others have stated it just requires diligence on many parts to keep a place at least partially welcoming

 

[Authority]

Let us take a closer look.

Lauresh

• Female gamer
• Member of Something Awful
• Self-classified as a Goon

Past and Present

She had fond memories of gaming back in the 90's -

...I still have fond memories of playing Wing Commander 3 with my friend back in the 90's

She does not have many fond memories since the 90's -

however these were before the Internet was so deeply intertwined with out daily lives.

Gaming Views

• The gaming community is sexist. Not a small minority, not a small part of it, but all of of it -

  It's no secret that the gaming community is sexist and is actively hostile towards women, just ask any female gamer for their experience and it's 100% guaranteed that if someone knew they were a woman gamer then that woman has been verbally abused

• Star Citizen's community is not only sexist but also accepts rape culture -

  Star Citizen has it's fair share of sexist remarks including a thread asking for rape to become a part of the game because pirates should be absolutely disgusting people and the rape culture is something that is joked about and discussed in a positive light within the community.

• Star Citizen's community is sexist because not only there was a thread that was locked about having Sex in Space -

  Sex in Space«12» but also because a part of the community would like to have more customization access by -

  having more access to space-bikinis

Why we need a Female Star Citizen Community or FSCC

• Some females not willing -

  to talk about with their male counterparts

• Some females requiring -

  just generally have a safe place to get involved with the Star Citizen community

• Two wrongs do not have to flip a coin to see who is right or less right.
  
• To the common man and taking into account all information; not just whether that particular community should exist or not, this is another publicity stun to promote Goon Culture and stir up shit. To the common man the moderator(s) should be immediately taken down and that is not negotiable.

Now more to the point,

Countering her argument

• There is a difference between thread exclusivity; related content to the OP accessible to everybody, and a community exclusivity; related content to the OP accessible to only by that particular group.
  
• The fact that she is a a member of Something Awful and a Goon in that respect, is enough to question her true intentions. That is the premise of mistrust from the Star Citizen community. Her intentions are questionable. In that respect again, if no one knew that information there would be no suspicion.
  
• There is no reason for special treatment or special access in a forum - We should all have access to all the content. There is nothing to hide.
  
• The official forum serves the public and not the majority or the minority - The public.

In summary

Her position is that most, if not all, gamers are males with misogynistic views that accept rape culture. The way she writes only reinforces that; remember "not willing to talk with their male counterparts" and "safe place".

So there real question is this,

• Does a person like that with those views deserve the right to hold her own exclusive community? Absolutely yes. She has every right to want to belong or belong to any group she wants to.
  
• Does the public, in this sense the gaming community of Star Citizen, have the right to humiliate her because she is a SF member and a Goon and/or a female gamer? Absolutely not.

Until proven otherwise the public should respect her view on this matter. However, there is no smoke without fire; that blog post reinforces the idea that her intentions were not genuine or innocent but based on a social and political agenda.

 

[serversurfer]

Having read nothing but the OP, here are my thoughts.

While I understand that she probably had nothing but the best intentions, to me, the very idea that women need a place where they are "safe from men" is pretty sexist in and of itself. It just reinforces the notion that women are weak and submissive, while men are strong and dominant. If you want men and women to be thought of as equals, then you need to treat them as equals.

I don't really see any reason anyone should be excluded from any community unless they're assholes, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, political beliefs, whatever.

That said, I don't see any reason to ban people for simply asking for such a forum, unless they were assholes about it.

 

[aeolist]

It almost makes me wish they'd make a special section of the forum/game for people who are kinder and better-spoken, all the hating/immature/annoying people would not be allowed on, this way men who can't join the friendlier group of women only forums and who don't want to deal with seeing all the non-sense like bikini and rape threads don't have to deal with it either.

i kinda wish we had that here

 

[bishoptl]

Well done to focus on the one part of my post which was a hypothetical consideration and not my thoughts on the actual situation.

Also clinging onto "history" is a sure fire way to never move forward, how can we have social equality if certain groups want privileges to make up for past wrongs?

If this was a group formed by women in cape town for "safe discussion" that would be totally understandable and encouraged, but when it's an internet board for a videogame populated in the majority by young westerners and moderated to stamp out sexism,racism etc there is no need.

Typical hand-waving bullshit. If only we ignore the past, says he, then we shall move forward. Easy to say when the perspective is from one that has historically enjoyed those advantages that they would now deny to others.

Stop wasting my time.

 

[obonicus]

I see no problem with a female only "guild" in a MMO. But I have one question:

Is the OP wanting a female only ingame guild, or is she (also)wanting a female-only forum section?

I ask because a lot of people in this gaf-thread is talking about forum sections, but I'm not sure where that comes from. The links in the OP doesn't work so I can't look into the details but based on all the text in the OP of this thread, I see no reason to believe that they're asking for a female only forum section.

*confused*

Granted, I'm not the other forum's OP, but from what I understood she was going to provide the infrastructure to host this group. This seemed like an invitation and check for interest more than anything else.

 

[Kinyou]

You'd want to be addressing Cyrano, not me, since the answer wasn't addressed to me at all. And as Cyrano said, Olli is not really coming at this with any nuance, just dictionary definitions and beating his chest about how he is writing a paper for university. I correctly addressed it as pedantry.

Again, not sure how pointing out that he indeed used the word in a correct fashion is pedantry. Trying to correct him that he might have gotten the definition slightly wrong is what actually seems pedantic to me.

 

[obonicus]

...

All you've done is question the authenticity of her position because of who she associates with. That's textbook ad hominem. Forget she's associated with Goonrathi and then gauge what she's saying. How is it unreasonable?

 

[AndyH]

I can see an off topic thread for women like we have on gaf being useful, with careful moderation, but a specific forum section to talk about the game only for one gender just segregates the community. I don't see why gender has to come into topics to do with the game itself.

We used to have community mega threads at one point on gaf which were essentially mini forums in of themselves. The admin and moderation team deleted, modified, or broke them up because they were causing segregation instead of encouraging an environment where everyone was equal.

Artificial barriers between genders will not fix the problems we have with some online communities and in some cases could make it worse. The root issues need to be dealt with, not just plastered over.

 

[Antoids]

the thing about this is why is the solution to sequester girls in their own little corner to provide a "safe space"?

why isnt the solution to make everywhere a safe space?