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[RicoTheMad]

I think if what she wanted was like one of the threads on GAF, ie: Black Culture, BritGAF, GermanGAF, LGBT, ChristianityGAF, etc, etc, etc than there's no issues at all.

We have all those threads on GAF, and though I fit ZERO of the criteria of the OP's listed above, I am free to read or participate (within the forum rules) with no fear.

Take this from the BCT:



None of these threads are meant as exclusionary in the slightest, but they are havens for people of these groups to participate and share common experiences. They are moderated for trolls or inappropriate comments.. the rules of GAF apply just like anywhere else.

If that is what she wished for, any one in uproar deserves the ban hammer.

I'm not for excluded groups though, not a public discussion forum that isn't exclusionary to begin with. Posting on a forum is a privilege though, not a right.. unless you own it.

The GAF approach to these issues makes much more sense... give people the OT and ban the asshats who won't to troll or spoil things.

The approach the OP (on the other forum) went for with wanting a closed-off section is the wrong approach to take.. and it's not at all surprising that things went down the way they did.

If that same thread was posted on GAF, it would have been completely different. .

I think the issue was this was meant to be exclusive to women only, so unlike n GAF, if you are a man you are not welcome due to the fact that you are man, regardless of your views, behavior or personality.

I think the GAF way is the right way. Everyone can participate but things are well moderated. I'm pretty new here but it makes me happy that this is how it works here, I hadn't spotted those threads yet.

 

[Majukun]

GAF sexism threads rarely produce anything interesting, because they're too full of people denying that sexism exists in the first place, and that discussing it is some sort of terrible assault on men.

actually they don't go anywhere because users from both genders go out of their way to depict the opposite gender as the culprit,while gender equality should be more about founding common ground than deciding who is right and who is wrong.

 

[Makai]

It's worse now because women are being more vocal than ever about how they feel about the game industry, which seems to threaten a normal sect of gamers, but on top of that, the MRA movement is also picking up considerable steam, which amplifies things further. And for NeoGAF in particular, just due to its sheer size, it's becoming increasingly representative of society at large.

Is it? I hadn't heard of this. They seem to get ridiculed in the public places I visit (NeoGAF)

 

[NervousXtian]

That's because our community, headed by mods/admins (as shown here) are more welcoming and don't fuck with intolerance. But it's not like that in the Star Citizen forums. For example, an LBGT thread was made in Star Citizen forums several months back and it got derailed pretty fast.

I didn't know that, but it's good info to have. It's more than likely what would happen there if the THE LADIES OF STAR CITIZEN [OT] was started.. probably almost assuredly.

Again, I don't envy moderating an official forum. It's the whole problem of trying to build a community, but secretly wishing it was just about game discussion without all the other things. Because banning people means banning customers.

I guess it's a big reason I don't post on any official forums.. outside of maybe asking a question.. or reading to find solutions to problems.

You start locking everything that's not purely game related and on-topic and you make your forum uninviting, but you open it up to more and you start getting into subjects you didn't want to handle to begin with. Then have to make decisions on how to rear back discussion, but there's damage to be done with that as well. You get into Catch-22's where you are going to alienate people no matter what you do... so typically you end up with wishy-washy moderation that's inconsistent.

So you end up with something like this, where it's probably something never envisioned to start with.. but here it is.. and no matter what you do.. you lose to someone.

They should have never allowed the scope of their forums to get to this level... they should have just locked anything controversial and dealt with the much more mild fallout and set a precedent and lived with it.

 

[AlimNassor]

Not to speak on behalf of her, but look at what Aeana is saying: in her experience, she has been discouraged from speaking on these issues due to a backlash from the majority demographic. It doesn't take a lot to stop talking and really take on board what she is saying. If you can honestly say you've been discouraged in the same sort of way, based on sex and gender, then talk away. Otherwise try to understand what she is saying, instead of going into reflex hypothetical mode.

Returning to Star Citizen, after seeing that rape thread, I really don't want to go back to look at it again. If that's how they run a forum, JESUS...

Why? It was a troll thread. A couple weirdos supported it. You're acting as if every single person in that thread was supporting it.

 

[Marcel]

actually they don't go anywhere because users from both genders go out of their way to depict the opposite gender as the culprit,while gender equality should be more about founding common ground than deciding who is right and who is wrong.

Common ground is all well and good, but I don't think the people who choose to promote false equivalencies, promote "Male Rights", willingly misunderstand the idea of safe zones, and cloak their prejudices in pedantic hand-waving bullshit are on the right side of history.

The people who marginalize me for being a transgendered human being are out there louder than ever and it's my right not to want to engage with people who shrug their shoulders or apologize for hatefulness and bigotry.

 

[runnin_blue]

actually they don't go anywhere because users from both genders go out of their way to depict the opposite gender as the culprit,while gender equality should be more about founding common ground than deciding who is right and who is wrong.

This right here.

 

[Jprobespierre]

Having read nothing but the OP, here are my thoughts.

While I understand that she probably had nothing but the best intentions, to me, the very idea that women need a place where they are "safe from men" is pretty sexist in and of itself. It just reinforces the notion that women are weak and submissive, while men are strong and dominant. If you want men and women to be thought of as equals, then you need to treat them as equals.

That has to be the most ignorant shit I have read on the NeoGAF Forums, congrats! Here have a cookie.

FYI - The word sexist is synonymous with male chauvinist which is a belief in the inferiority of women and is generally said of men's attitude towards women. On the other hand, one might claim this to be feminist but that in and of itself is reaching.

Men and women will never be thought as equal until men, specifically, in a culture of misogyny that has origins farther back then gaming. If you want a real understanding of why women deserve to have a place that they feel safe from the rhetoric and abuse of men then I suggest you take a look at anti-suffrage propaganda of the late 19th and early 20th century that still has roots in Western society today.

For example:

Women do not have to turn the other cheek when abused by men to be accepted as strong and therefor equal to men. The whole notion that to be treated as equal is contingent on accepting of the character faults of males just to prove that they are strong is half-witted, laughable and short-sighted. The plight of a women will never be understood by a man, the most we can do is empathize with their situation.

I really don't know what else to say about the reasons why women need places where "they feel safe" from men. I wish my grandmother/mother had a place to feel safe from my grandfather when he beat the shit out of them and molested them. My sister thought the military was a safe place, until she was raped and the attacker was protected by the all male officer core who 'naturally' insinuated the her being raped was a product of her just being there.

Gaming is highly anonymous, the shit you say on a message forum has no consequential return on your daily life. With that being said and the lack of impunity for most people who post, the lowest common decency will be adhered too. Ie. Racism, rape jokes and misogyny, especially when the moderators condone it, as with the case for Star Citizen.

Sexist and Racism are the same, they are both learned traits. To be a racist, you must be taught to be one. The same goes for being sexist. Wanting equal protection and a environment to feel safe does not make you sexist or racist. This is the same fucked up reasoning that leads to racists and sexists screaming intolerance to those who are intolerant to their discrimination.

You can only treat men and women as equals when men see women as equals, and according to the rhetoric shown on the Star Citizen forum, most do not consider women as equals.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

Why? It was a troll thread. A couple weirdos supported it. You're acting as if every single person in that thread was supporting it.

It wasn't removed outright. Regardless of whether it was a troll thread, that shit is toxic.

 

[Mengy]

To be fair, GAF is one of the *better* message boards on the internet and that's saying a lot.

You know, I don't even really think of NeoGAF posters as having a gender, as silly as that sounds. Whether a poster is male or female really doesn't even matter to me, I pretty much just treat everyone the same. I guess it just surprises me that not everyone is like that. Hell, half of the members I interact with on a regular basis could even be women and I wouldn't even realize it, lol.

 

[Dark Octave]

Common ground is all well and good, but I don't think the people who choose to promote false equivalencies, promote "Male Rights", willingly misunderstand the idea of safe zones, and cloak their prejudices in pedantic hand-waving bullshit are on the right side of history.

The people who marginalize me as a transgendered human being are out there louder than ever and it's my right not to want to engage with people who shrug their shoulders or apologize for hatefulness and bigotry.

Being referred to as transgendered is a bad thing now?

 

[Marcel]

Being referred to as transgendered is a bad thing now?

Of course not. I edited the post for clarity as I meant "for" rather than "as".

 

[unbias]

Not particularly shocking. Lot of gamers, imo, are very introverted and are not exactly social butterflies in the real world. Some of them struggle with the opposite sex and alot of the times feel they stand no chance. Coupled with poor mannerisms and behavior, they lash out at anything that threatens their bubble. Sexism is FUD(in this industry more then most, imo), fear of losing what you have, uncertain that the group in question thinks you are part of the problem, and doubting anything good(for you) can come from such things as privacy among that gender. Mixing of genders to discuss things is great and very much needed, segregation ON ITS OWN can indeed be a problem, but as long as there is a place where everyone can come together, regardless of the ability to have subsections dedicated to one particular group of people, there shouldn't be a problem. A lot of this, imo, just stems from a lot of guys complete lack of understanding of the opposite sex, and a lot of this, imo, is systemic from back when boys who played video games were laughed at, and now have this self destructive chip on their shoulders because they buried their introverted insecurities into video games, and anything that threatens the status quo scares the hell out of them and they lash out in some pretty horrible ways.

Until all stigmas with the game industry start washing away, I think women, in particular, definitely should have a spot they feel they can talk about that particular interest without seeing the FUD of gaming d00ds start gnawing at every word they say. Men, women, ect when they are talking about things, you are not always going to agree with what they say and once in awhile they are wrong in what they say, but nit picking what you find wrong or disagree with helps no one. But if there is indeed a problem in a certain subset of hobbies(and with gaming there is, been a boys club for quite a long time, which has fostered some resentment and bitterness, imo) people need not respond to what they disagree with, but nurture things they do agree with or that can improve the hobby to be more inclusive. There is way to much money to be found in catering to mens tastes, so the FUD that is constantly being repeated is very much pointless.

 

[Castcoder]

It's really sad to see how many times the forums tarnish reputations for these Kickstarter indies. If nothing gets resolved from this, I will never support this developer in any way, and make sure to steer people away from their products. I hope Kotaku, Joystiq, IGN, GameSpot, etc. Write an article about this incident.

 

[Authority]

A community is not a population. It is not just made out of people, but also the cultural norms and relationships of those people. When somebody claims a community is awful, they are not claiming near every individual is awful, but that there is an atmosphere of general awfulness surrounding it because the worst behavior stands out and is often tolerated.

And you are still failing to provide any context to why her SA membership matters or affects her arguments.

That's ad hominem.

Spoiler

But I can see why you made that post, considering you post on NeoGAF.

I specifically said why the public or the common man would perceive her idea as having a hidden motive. The public or the common man perceives SF/Goons as a notorious gaming group and in the internet "knows what they are, what they represent and what they do". In that respect you cannot expect the public or the common man to think otherwise. Same thing with Kotaku; You cannot expect the public or the common man not to think Kotaku as "British tabloid newspaper". Each group leaves a mark either in real life or on the internet. If you or they want to change people's perception about them they should either change or do something about it.

And to clarify, I never said that I personally stated that her idea has got a hidden motive that derived from being a SF member or a Goon. I specifically said that her blog-post and not her SF membership reinforced the idea that she is biased. Her idea does not hold merit not because she is a member of SF or because she is a Goon. Her idea does not hold merit because it is flawed.

That is the bottom line.

 

[LoveCake]

It's worse now because women are being more vocal than ever about how they feel about the game industry, which seems to threaten a normal sect of gamers, but on top of that, the MRA movement is also picking up considerable steam, which amplifies things further. And for NeoGAF in particular, just due to its sheer size, it's becoming increasingly representative of society at large. People are less afraid to say what they really think on the internet, and they are also challenged to amplify their views amongst the already-extreme voices in order to be heard. The result is really, really awful. As moderators, we do our best to stamp out the worst offenders, but there is always going to be this group of people who just have crappy views but don't cross the line into banworthy territory. And that group gets larger as NeoGAF gets larger. Fortunately, we have great members who are willing to patiently engage many of these people and show them a different perspective. Not every hateful voice is actually hateful. Sometimes it's just ignorant.

But I love this place, and it is by far the most friendly place for minority groups I've ever been to on the internet, and I do my best to keep it that way.

I think the industry as a whole needs to cater for female gamers much more & not with fluffy cat games & pink coloured consoles, there needs to be more female programmers, designers & managers in game design & publishing, yes there are games like CoD that some females like to play but how much is there to cater for what girls & women want, most playable game characters are male & many games could have a gender option without impacting on the story that much.

I myself had hoped games & gaming would change, the people who grew up playing games in the 80's are now at the age where they are making games, but things have not really changed that much, more of the same, beat'em up, driving, shooting games, maybe as more girls are playing games today in the future there will be more that make it into the industry & change things from the inside.

It is good to know that GAF has a female Mod/Admin maybe there are more ?

Sexism is just as bad as racism, homophobia.

 

[Marcel]

I specifically said why the public or the common man would perceive her idea as having a hidden motive. The public or the common man perceives SF/Goons as a notorious gaming group and in the internet "knows what they are, what they represent and what they do".

In that respect you cannot expect the public or the common man to think otherwise. Same thing with Kotaku; You cannot expect the public or the common man not to think Kotaku as "British tabloid newspaper".

Each group leaves a mark either in real life or on the internet. If you or they want to change people's perception about them they should either change or do something about it.

And to clarify, I never said that I personally stated that her idea has got a hidden motive that derived from being a SF member or a Goon. I specifically said that her blog-post and not her SF membership reinforced the idea that she is biased.

Her idea does not hold merit not because she is a member of SF or because she is a Goon. Her idea does not hold merit because it is flawed.

I have made this perfectly clear.

No solution for this type of problem is perfect so your point is mostly useless to everyone. That said, the safe zone is a realistic and proactive strategy that works in the real world.

 

[Minsc]

It's really sad to see how many times the forums tarnish reputations for these Kickstarter indies. If nothing gets resolved from this, I will never support this developer in any way, and make sure to steer people away from their products. I hope Kotaku, Joystiq, IGN, GameSpot, etc. Write an article about this incident.

Well, the big guns are looking over it now going by a link to a twitter a few pages back ( https://twitter.com/banditloaf ), so something will happen soon-ish. No need to jump to picketing CIG yet. In the forum's defense (lol) the thread about rape apparently was closed within the day, and the bikini thread is said to not be sexist either, as there are also men being posted as well there (though proportions may not be equal).

This is probably big enough it may see mention in their weekly Wingman's Hangar videos a week or two from now, or not.

 

[aspiegamer]

I seriously want to punch anyone who is somehow intimidated or angered by the idea of any kind of organized group of people existing that simply wouldn't include them by default.
I also want to punch anyone who can't understand or honestly think such places aren't necessary and/or shouldn't be encouraged. That a community meant as a gathering place for persons of a certain demographic threatens their physical existence in some way. Even if you're the most bigoted and discriminating person on the planet I cannot in any way understand how this could irk you.

I know I'd have to punch a lot of people and since I'm pretty much entirely opposed to physical violence that I'd have quite the dilemma on my hands. Maybe I could outsource it to Craigslist or kickstarter that shit.

 

[Tawpgun]

Haven't read all 8 pages of this thread but going by the OP..... The girl that made that request is stupid.

Exclusionary groups on forums are dumb and make no sense. I agree that it should be something like GirlGAF we have here. It's like an OT for girls to be active in, but it shouldn't ban males from reading or participating.

If you want a safe environment then make the entire forum a safe environment.

Is this really a controversy? I don't see how.

 

[Wazzy]

More representation of women in videogames, wazzy? Sorry, but this is a male-dominated hobby, and if women or other minority groups want to see a change, they should form their own studios and their own groups to change the industry.

Oh wait, you're forming your own group and men can't join? Hang on, that's discriminatory and reverse-sexism. We should strive for everyone to behave well, you don't need your own group. What could you possibly want your own group for?

This sums it up pretty well.

It's a lose-lose no matter what we do.

 

[besada]

actually they don't go anywhere because users from both genders go out of their way to depict the opposite gender as the culprit,while gender equality should be more about founding common ground than deciding who is right and who is wrong.

This is simply not true. It is incredibly rare that female posters attempt to demonize men as a group. I'm not speaking hypothetically, I'm speaking as someone who actually moderates these threads. No matter how benign the framing of the discussion, the threads fill with male posters making false equivalences and denying that sexism really exists.

And it's not just sexism. Many of our transgendered members refuse to even participate in trans threads because of how genuinely nasty some posters get. Members of BlackGAF are increasingly frustrated, and increasingly unwilling to engage, because every thread involving racism devolves into a thread arguing about whether it even exists.

And I see the same dumb "why is there no white history month" post in those threads that we've seen in here.

There's a problem, and it's fairly easily identifiable. A subset of white male posters exist on GAF who thrive on shitting on oppressed minorities. Whether they're secret Red Pillers or just garden variety entitled guys who are incapable of empathy, they routinely shit up these sorts of threads and make it nearly impossible for rational folk to have a discussion.

 

[EdibleKnife]

Haven't read all 8 pages of this thread but going by the OP..... The girl that made that request is stupid.

Exclusionary groups on forums are dumb and make no sense. I agree that it should be something like GirlGAF we have here. It's like an OT for girls to be active in, but it shouldn't ban males from reading or participating.

If you want a safe environment then make the entire forum a safe environment.

Is this really a controversy? I don't see how.

It's not her job to create that environment, it is the moderators. Obviously, they weren't doing even a half good job so she felt like this was a necessary measure to have a community that isn't trolled or derailed every few posts.

 

[Marcel]

This is simply not true. It is incredibly rare that female posters attempt to demonize men as a group. I'm not speaking hypothetically, I'm speaking as someone who actually moderates these threads. No matter how benign the framing of the discussion, the threads fill with male posters making false equivalences and denying that sexism really exists.

And it's not just sexism. Many of our transgendered members refuse to even participate in trans threads because of how genuinely nasty some posters get. Members of BlackGAF are increasingly frustrated, and increasingly unwilling to engage, because every thread involving racism devolves into a thread arguing about whether it even exists.

And I see the same dumb "why is there no white history month" post in those threads that we've seen in here.

There's a problem, and it's fairly easily identifiable. A subset of white male posters exist on GAF who thrive on shitting on oppressed minorities. Whether they're secret Red Pillers or just garden variety entitled guys who are incapable of empathy, they routinely shit up these sorts of threads and make it nearly impossible for rational folk to have a discussion.

Could you speak to this a little bit more?

 

[ThreePiMatt]

I seem to recall Penny Arcade taking a ton of shit for their idea of a diversity area/safe zone in PAX, both on this forum and in games journalism circles. But now they are needed? I guess I don't quite understand where the difference lies.

 

[Patryn]

Hove you read the response to her wanting to make a Girl Only club, you thing its working in her favor/the way she hoped? The problem as I see it, you don't discriminate to create equality.

Except that the goal of this is not equality. They aren't seeking to change the world. The goal of this is giving the women a place where they can be free to express themselves as they wish.

I seem to recall Penny Arcade taking a ton of shit for their idea of a diversity area/safe zone in PAX, both on this forum and in games journalism circles. But now they are needed? I guess I don't quite understand where the difference lies.

Is it possible that the people criticizing those diversity lounges and those defending this separate area are not the same group of people?

 

[Mistel]

Could you speak to this a little bit more?

As a an example for the transgendered issues.

 

[Marcel]

I seem to recall Penny Arcade taking a ton of shit for their idea of a diversity area/safe zone in PAX, both on this forum and in games journalism circles. But now they are needed? I guess I don't quite understand where the difference lies.

The "diversity zoo" as Christine Love called it, was rather insincere after Gabe went out of his way to be a bigot with regards to the whole "I'm ignorant about trans people on purpose" thing. Many also didn't enjoy its physical placement in the convention as it made it easy to avoid. The people who need to see and understand the message likely didn't even know it existed.

It's not really comparable to this issue because the women want a safe place away from the toxic discussion on the Star Citizen message board.

 

[besada]

Could you speak to this a little bit more?

Sure. It's a fairly common phenomena with our minority community groups.

As mods, we can attempt to make those threads reasonable, although that often is accomplished by simply banning obnoxious voices, but we can only do that once they've run their mouths. And many members seem to have a willingness to court the danger inherent in that kind of posting.

So virtually every transgendered thread we've had involves people outright denying the people identifying as trans women are women, which is incredibly hurtful.

And we ban those guys, but it doesn't make it less hurtful, and after a few threads like that, it's not surprising that trans GAF doesn't feel like coming into the thread to be invalidated.

As I've said, this also happens constantly with racial threads on GAF and has created the same response. It would be nice to be able to discuss a subject without first having to trawl through five pages of sheltered, entitled guys claiming that the phenomena doesn't exist in the first place.

 

[PensOwl]

This is simply not true. It is incredibly rare that female posters attempt to demonize men as a group. I'm not speaking hypothetically, I'm speaking as someone who actually moderates these threads. No matter how benign the framing of the discussion, the threads fill with male posters making false equivalences and denying that sexism really exists.

And it's not just sexism. Many of our transgendered members refuse to even participate in trans threads because of how genuinely nasty some posters get. Members of BlackGAF are increasingly frustrated, and increasingly unwilling to engage, because every thread involving racism devolves into a thread arguing about whether it even exists.

And I see the same dumb "why is there no white history month" post in those threads that we've seen in here.

There's a problem, and it's fairly easily identifiable. A subset of white male posters exist on GAF who thrive on shitting on oppressed minorities. Whether they're secret Red Pillers or just garden variety entitled guys who are incapable of empathy, they routinely shit up these sorts of threads and make it nearly impossible for rational folk to have a discussion.

Whoa, there are Red Pillers on NeoGaf? This is the first I've heard of this, I thought that specific group was pretty much exclusive to reddit (and not really tolerated there either)

 

[ThreePiMatt]

Except that the goal of this is not equality. They aren't seeking to change the world. The goal of this is giving the women a place where they can be free to express themselves as they wish.



Is it possible that the people criticizing those diversity lounges and those defending this separate area are not the same group of people?

But then you have two different sets of people saying two different things, and who are you supposed to listen to? Kind of a damned if you, damned if you don't situation.

Fake Edit - Also, something up with the boards? I hit "Quote" and its taking me to the generic vBulletin theme.

 

[Lucumo]

Here come the double standards. I bet if they has allowed a men's only group though they would have been called sexists too.

Pretty much what I think as well. And it's not like it's just the case here.

 

[Marcel]

Sure. It's a fairly common phenomena with our minority community groups.

As mods, we can attempt to make those threads reasonable, although that often is accomplished by simply banning obnoxious voices, but we can only do that once they've run their mouths. And many members seem to have a willingness to court the danger inherent in that kind of posting.

So virtually every transgendered thread we've had involves people outright denying the people identifying as trans women are women, which is incredibly hurtful.

And we ban those guys, but it doesn't make it less hurtful, and after a few threads like that, it's not surprising that trans GAF doesn't feel like coming into the thread to be invalidated.

As I've said, this also happens constantly with racial threads on GAF and has created the same response. It would be nice to be able to discuss a subject without first having to trawl through five pages of sheltered, entitled guys claiming that the phenomena doesn't exist in the first place.

I see. I've made mentions to my identity as a transgender person and thankfully I don't recall anything recent where someone calls me out like that here on GAF. It may have happened in the past here I suppose but I guess that goes to show how little I think of willingly ignorant people.

I hope those people have the courage to come back one day because I could use some help.

 

[Patryn]

But then you have two different sets of people saying two different things, and who are you supposed to listen to? Kind of a damned if you, damned if you don't situation.

Fake Edit - Also, something up with the boards? I hit "Quote" and its taking me to the generic vBulletin theme.

One could also make the argument that the minority community in this case is asking for the separate space, whereas with the diversity lounges it was PA designating them because of their troubled history, as opposed to providing something asked for by the LGBT community.

 

[Cyrano]

It's worse now because women are being more vocal than ever about how they feel about the game industry, which seems to threaten a normal sect of gamers, but on top of that, the MRA movement is also picking up considerable steam, which amplifies things further. And for NeoGAF in particular, just due to its sheer size, it's becoming increasingly representative of society at large. People are less afraid to say what they really think on the internet, and they are also challenged to amplify their views amongst the already-extreme voices in order to be heard. The result is really, really awful. As moderators, we do our best to stamp out the worst offenders, but there is always going to be this group of people who just have crappy views but don't cross the line into banworthy territory. And that group gets larger as NeoGAF gets larger. Fortunately, we have great members who are willing to patiently engage many of these people and show them a different perspective. Not every hateful voice is actually hateful. Sometimes it's just ignorant.

But I love this place, and it is by far the most friendly place for minority groups I've ever been to on the internet, and I do my best to keep it that way.

I know it's late, but I get this feeling too. The MRA in particular is entirely toxic, seemingly, to any community they wriggle into and somehow it seems to be gaining traction for reasons I cannot begin to fathom.

Lately, any reaction on the internet is not met with an equal, but over-the-top reaction that eventually spins a proverbial narrative web that enraptures a specific group into organizations that ultimately hurt far more than they help. And it seems like these groups continue to be more enabled every day to effectively treat others like garbage.

 

[ThreePiMatt]

One could also make the argument that the minority community in this case is asking for the separate space, whereas with the diversity lounges it was PA designating them because of their troubled history, as opposed to providing something asked for by the LGBT community.

But the question then becomes, "is it RSI's responsibility to give them that separate space?" Who is vetting the people for their gender? Who is moderating that sub-forum? Is it the presumably male moderators at RSI? Or are they planning to self-moderate? If that's the case why wouldn't they just make their own forum and have complete control over it?

 

[Marcel]

But the question then becomes, "is it RSI's responsibility to give them that separate space?" Who is vetting the people for their gender? Who is moderating that sub-forum? Is it the presumably male moderators at RSI? Or are they planning to self-moderate? If that's the case why wouldn't they just make their own forum and have complete control over it?

Maybe as backers they felt that they could propose the sub-forum idea with no real drama. Private sub-forums take little to no time to set up on smaller communities/message boards.

It seemed like they still wanted to participate in the non-shitty aspects of the community, as minuscule as they probably were.

 

[Kazerei]

There have been clubs for minority groups in real life for as long as ever. I don't get why people have a problem with it, or why they think it's a barrier towards inclusion, or whatever else the argument is. To cry that clubs like these are sexist/racist/discriminatory seems petty as fuck. Imagine being part of a minority that is vehemently made to feel unwelcome and excluded from the mainstream. Wouldn't you want a place to meet and chat with people like you?

 

[Patryn]

But the question then becomes, "is it RSI's responsibility to give them that separate space?" Who is vetting the people for their gender? Who is moderating that sub-forum? Is it the presumably male moderators at RSI? Or are they planning to self-moderate? If that's the case why wouldn't they just make their own forum and have complete control over it?

Those are definitely valid questions. I suppose that I haven't really thought about the logistics side of it. I'll freely admit that I'm not 100 percent familiar with exactly how those boards are run.

I would ask whether they allow specific Guild Boards that are private and proceed from there.

However, on a general theory sense, I still have to support their right to have a restrictive community, just as GAF excludes those without a valid e-mail address.

 

[SocksForWoks]

What she was asking for was a bad idea through and through.

 

[Jado]

Everything you post is on the mark and 100% correct. I keep on feeling the need to contribute due to the amazing misconceptions in this thread but you carry the torch well.

I've deleted two or three posts already because Marcel said it better than me. Gaming forums are male-dominated both in sheer numbers and the overall pervasive mentality found in nearly every thread. If a relatively small group wants to create a sub-forum, that's not sexist or exclusionary to the privileged majority (wtf, they already have everything else catering to them on the site). To the number of people who have said "what if men create their own group, hmmm?" I say go ahead. I guarantee the women who vouched for the womens-only group don't give a fuck. As explained above, entire forums are already practically all-male in several ways. Secondly, the womens group would be created as a safe place to chat, while the male group (unnecessary on a near-100% male site) would be created for reasons of anger, spite and malice -- it's like the guy in the poker example who just wants to ruin shit for the minority group to "prove a point."

Calm down.

I'm still working my way through this thread, but why are you telling the calmest, most level headed person in the thread to "calm down?" It makes your intentions very transparent when you don't also tell a dozen other far louder, more childish, more sensationalist posters* to be calm or settle down.
*Because they happen agree with your stance and voice similar sentiments, so obviously you feel no need to quiet them down.

It's really gross to see people suggest that a safe place for women is unfair. The responses in the thread proves that it needs to exist.

Agree with this. I think it's an outright lie and misguided to say it's unfair to the men who overwhelmingly dominate every other aspect of a board.

 

[Marcel]

What she was asking for was a bad idea through and through.

How?

 

[Patryn]

What she was asking for was a bad idea through and through.

Why?

 

[Buzzman]

As a an example for the transgendered issues.

I'm sorry, why is this guy not permabanned exactly?

 

[PBY]

What she was asking for was a bad idea through and through.

Who does it harm exactly?

 

[Marcel]

Who does it harm exactly?

Men, I guess. The thought of a shadowy cabal of women talking about stuff not related to them is just too much to deal with.

 

[APF]

I seem to recall Penny Arcade taking a ton of shit for their idea of a diversity area/safe zone in PAX, both on this forum and in games journalism circles. But now they are needed? I guess I don't quite understand where the difference lies.

A major difference is that one situation is talking about a physical location at a specific event and the other is talking about an ongoing virtual space, so there are obvious differences that should be readily apparent to anyone just looking at the two. But the bigger reason some were upset was that people long considered the entire convention to be a "safe zone," until a few divisive events set that perception back greatly, and this was seen as a clear statement that the organizers either had no idea how to handle the idea of safety or diversity, or they honestly really didn't care and were just trying to shove off people who once felt they were part of a community. There's a big difference between telling people who already feel marginalized, "here's where you go," vs people who feel marginalized coming up with their own spaces where they feel safe, and anyone should be able to understand the difference pretty easily.


EDIT: The public has no idea what SA or Kotaku are, let alone have preconceived notions about their institutional biases.

 

[Buzzman]

Fucking wow.

Here's the link if you want to read more fun arguments I guess.

 

[Cyrano]

*snip*

What the hell?

 

[Wazzy]

What she was asking for was a bad idea through and through.

Why don't you elaborate?