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[Gurgelhals]

Mitch Gitelman in the comments on additional stretch goals and Astral Space (tl;dr: it's not coming):

Hey all! @SPUD @Pegasus >>>psychology of getting more pledges Thanks guys. We definitely get your point. Not our first Kickstarter rodeo. ;D For us, this isn't about psychology. It's about focusing on what's important - getting proper funding to add to the game we're making for you. We have a solid plan and announcing more funding goals to try and get the most money we can extract is not what we're about. I really appreciate @S. D. Tortorice's comment about putting any additional money put into ensuring the quality of the game we've described with its expanded goals. Focus leads to quality. A lot of people talk about Astral Space in the comments here and on the forums we haunt. We've done the diligence and priced it out and it's a big number - about $1.5m - and it would require us to rethink our approach to the core of the game. I'd prefer to wait for the right time and create a story/campaign that's truly focused around this idea so we can do it justice. We don't want another Matrix. So, will we announce more funding goals? Maybe. If and when we're ready. But right now, let's focus on getting the Matrix the treatment it deserves. Mitch

Source: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/webeharebrained/comments

It's clear that they've learned a lot from their previous campaigns and they're managing this one very professionally.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

I'm also thrilled to hear him admit The Matrix is junk. That gives me confidence that this revamp will really try to fix it, not just put a new coat of paint on a turd.

 

[Tacitus_]

Hopefully they'll up the model fidelity and animations. The huge gulf between the gorgeous background art and the 3d models was a bit distracting.

 

[Miletius]

Mitch Gitelman in the comments on additional stretch goals and Astral Space (tl;dr: it's not coming):


Source: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/webeharebrained/comments

It's clear that they've learned a lot from their previous campaigns and they're managing this one very professionally.

I like what he said in the comments. Astral plane is a possibility, just not now, when the moment is right during another expansion/story. It does make the KS seem less cash grabby and more of a "hey we need some extra funding to introduce these features," which is appreciative.

Like CY, I'd play one of these yearly if they wanted to release them, so as long as they want to get to it I'm willing to keep on listening.

 

[Gurgelhals]

I want them hiring the guy who did the Hong Kong soundtrack to Deus Ex as a stretch goal.

 

[mclem]

Quite frankly, the request for console versions as a stretch goal reeks of backer delusion. A realistic stretch goal for something like that to actually cover cost would undoubtedly be millions of dollars. We've had enough years of this by now to realize making games isn't cheap and the vast majority of Kickstarter projects (including Shadowrun Returns) have ended up costing much more than what they got from Kickstarter.

Or think of it another way. If the game takes six months to develop, 50k is basically one new person added to the project. How many people do you think it would take to develop any given feature? Because that's how stretch goals should be thought of.

I think you're overestimating the cost of ports, actually. The biggest impact would, I think, be the interface redesign. Actually getting it onto a console? I've been the sole porter of a game to console before, with the operative word being sole. The actual port isn't *too* bad provided the engine is built with console ports as an option. Isn't SRR Unity?

Not, I might add, that I think this *should* go to console. I still acknowledge that it's an additional expense and not something they should consider right now. I'm just also saying that I don't see it being millions.

 

[HK-47]

I want them hiring the guy who did the Hong Kong soundtrack to Deus Ex as a stretch goal.

Alex Brandon?

 

[mclem]

I like what he said in the comments. Astral plane is a possibility, just not now, when the moment is right during another expansion/story. It does make the KS seem less cash grabby and more of a "hey we need some extra funding to introduce these features," which is appreciative.

Actually, it sort of puts me in mind of, well, sourcebooks themselves. Each iteration comes with a setting and some sample quests, plus a few key gameplay features that weren't in the original scope.

 

[duckroll]

I think you're overestimating the cost of ports, actually. The biggest impact would, I think, be the interface redesign. Actually getting it onto a console? I've been the sole porter of a game to console before, with the operative word being sole. The actual port isn't *too* bad provided the engine is built with console ports as an option. Isn't SRR Unity?

Not, I might add, that I think this *should* go to console. I still acknowledge that it's an additional expense and not something they should consider right now. I'm just also saying that I don't see it being millions.

I think the biggest issue is not so much upfront costs so much as commitment to delivering it on other platforms. Once you promise it, you have to allocate resources towards that. Some of it is direct costs which can be offset by higher crowdfunding, but a larger part of it will be opportunity cost where they have to keep working on the same project long after it is done to get it out on other platforms as well, when they could simply be working on other things. HBS is not a big studio, and they're already working on two other projects besides this. So I don't think it is very practical in this instance.

 

[ElectricThunder]

Hmm, I think I'd like best then to see varied tangential smaller goals for post-Matrix---several relative minis to even out the big Matrix and as a wind down buffer should they actually go after anything crazy some 1.5 and such. Pretty much anything they are implementing a bit of, go ahead and fill out a bit more with the foundation then laid if not the entire lot of it.

-Bestiary getting a boost would be the most obvious---Ghouls are finally getting out there, so the time is ripe for Vampires/Wendigos/all else and damn the geographical inconsistencies of habitats that would stand in the way of that. Especially since, if they can get a robust template going on the one side of it, that opens the door nicely for the modders to get things hopping on the player end of it as well as there's PLENTY of spice that could still be incorporated into the player race aspect of building and intrigue.

-More karma opportunities so as to allow for more robust characters and/or diverse builds.

-Expand the "neutral turn" aspects to be more varied and potent such that they can be of more strategic and plot intrigue.

 

[~Kinggi~]

So at this point in time it basically has as much time left that the original kickstarter had to start with, which is interesting. Also pace has picked up a bit it seems.

Wonder when new stretches will come.

 

[mclem]

Wonder when new stretches will come.

Given the content of the recent interview upthread, I get the impression they hadn't *planned* to need more stretch goals. I think they're quite content with the idea of just using excess as a financial buffer rather than attaching it to specific targets.

I suspect what they'll do as they near $700k is have a sit-down meeting and rack their brains for anything that *would* still be a worthwhile extra quantifiable use for excess funding that'd benefit the game. But I also think they don't want to fall into the trap of overpromising; reining that in allows excess cash to be a safety net and that's something I think many Kickstarter project managers don't realise at first. I suspect they're reasonably content to just say "That's it; no more stretch goals."

 

[HK-47]

I kind of hope if you fuck with employers this time that actual missions are closed off or that they even come after you instead of giving a second job. Definitely resource intensive but I'd like to see a mission chain or two like that. Its too Shadowrun not to do at least once.

 

[GavinUK86]

I kind of hope if you fuck with employers this time that actual missions are closed off or that they even come after you instead of giving a second job. Definitely resource intensive but I'd like to see a mission chain or two like that. Its too Shadowrun not to do at least once.

Sounds cool.

 

[Durante]

I like the sound of building a campaign around astral space. They did experiment a bit with something like that in Glory's mission.

I'm also thrilled to hear him admit The Matrix is junk. That gives me confidence that this revamp will really try to fix it, not just put a new coat of paint on a turd.

I don't think it was all that bad in Dragonfall DC. Especially that one puzzle segment in one of the DC missions.

Of course, it could be much better.

 

[HK-47]

The Matrix is ok for an indie game. There is definitely untapped creative possibilities there in addition to general improvement and more varied visuals and such.

 

[kiyoaki]

Going by the discussion earlier in the thread, this didn't work the first time they attempted it and I doubt they'd rush to try it again.

Mini-campaigns would probably be too short to have much plot development and the amount of assets they'd have to create make it something they can't release in a "quick" time frame.

Yes, you're probably right, I doubt they're going to make something like this for Hong Kong. Just for me personally it'd be the one thing that could get me to pump more money into this project.

Mitch Gitelman in the comments on additional stretch goals and Astral Space (tl;dr: it's not coming):


Source: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/webeharebrained/comments

It's clear that they've learned a lot from their previous campaigns and they're managing this one very professionally.

I like that they're apparently already thinking ahead to a fourth campaign (and a third Kickstarter?)

As for the matrix, it was kind of FUBAR in the P&P game already, if you ask me. All the groups I played in during the 1990s had their custom (mostly trimmed down) matrix rules. So I can see why Harebrained Schemes preferred to to err on the side of simplicity instead of trying to cram the full complexity of the P&P matrix in the game.

Or maybe v. 5 fixed it?

 

[Meia]

At this point, I'd be more than happy with them focusing on their goals of this one(including the enhanced/new Matrix for the game), and then not add more to what they have to do. Maybe they get enough funding to immediately start a third game, who knows? If they'd do a yearly KS for a new game that allows me to get more shadowrun swag, I'd be game.

 

[m_dorian]

The lack of Paypal option prohibits me from supporting the effort but, after the superb Dragonfall DC, Shadowrun Hong Kong will be a day one buy or even a pre-order.

And this from a guy that rarely buys day one or pre-orders.

 

[Amir0x]

This is going to be the most comprehensive Shadowrun experience ever at this rate. God I love how these old school game experiences are returning in force thanks to Kickstarter and the talent of these developers to dream old but in a classic sense, and dream big but in a intellectually complex fashion. It's dominating the gameplay landscape with an irrefutable argument for its inherent superiority.

 

[HK-47]

This is going to be the most comprehensive Shadowrun experience ever at this rate. God I love how these old school game experiences are returning in force thanks to Kickstarter and the talent of these developers to dream old but in a classic sense, and dream big but in a intellectually complex fashion. It's dominating the gameplay landscape with an irrefutable argument for its inherent superiority.

I'm mostly happy something else has finally followed in Torment's footsteps in regards to text descriptions as a substitute to animation in conversation. Facial and body animation have rarely approached the nuance that descriptive text can give you, and its so much cheaper.

 

[Durante]

I'm mostly happy something else has finally followed in Torment footsteps in regards to text descriptions as a substitute to animation in conversation. Facial and body animation have rarely approached the nuance that descriptive text can give you, and its so much cheaper.

I never even actively noticed until reading your post right now, but this is a very good point. The conversations in Dragonfall seem more alive to me than most games I've played recently, and they do it all exclusively through text.

 

[Amir0x]

I'm mostly happy something else has finally followed in Torment footsteps in regards to text descriptions as a substitute to animation in conversation. Facial and body animation have rarely approached the nuance that descriptive text can give you, and its so much cheaper.

Yup, isn't it wonderful the effort they put into such a tiny detail in a mechanic that had so many other things seemingly more important to make sure was executed correctly? That's polish the way game reviews love talking about, a developer going above and beyond the call of duty in order to give their characters and world an extra layer of nuance. It's brilliantly executed.

I'll be honest the first Kickstarted Shadowrun game didn't send me to the moon (merely decent) so until recently I had avoided the second one. Then I saw a Winter Steam Sale that had the game set priced like a steal, and now I regret not being there from day one. It's the culmination of the Shadowrun ideal being done correctly.

 

[Nordicus]

I'm mostly happy something else has finally followed in Torment's footsteps in regards to text descriptions as a substitute to animation in conversation. Facial and body animation have rarely approached the nuance that descriptive text can give you, and its so much cheaper.

It's something that I liked in New Vegas' Dead Money expansion with Christine. She is mute, so the game described her motions in text.

 

[HK-47]

It's something that I liked in New Vegas' Dead Money expansion with Christine. She is mute, so the game described her motions in text.

Its something I wish older games like MotB or the KotORs had becuase the facial animation just wasnt there. The only older game that manages to match this type of text description in animation is Bloodlines and thats because of a combination of the Source engine's excellent facial animation combined with extremely high quality voice acting and dialogue. And even in that game the body language is very limited. Body language is something I feel even the AAA rpgs lack compared to what they should be at, moreso then facial animation. We will see how the Witcher 3 pans out in this regard.

 

[Donos]

This is going to be the most comprehensive Shadowrun experience ever at this rate. God I love how these old school game experiences are returning in force thanks to Kickstarter and the talent of these developers to dream old but in a classic sense, and dream big but in a intellectually complex fashion. It's dominating the gameplay landscape with an irrefutable argument for its inherent superiority.

It would be interesting to know if these games, building on former glory (Shadowrun, Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2 etc.), sell mostly to the generation who grew up with them (like me) or if younger people who, e.g. never played Baldurs Gate, appreciate these games too.

 

[Nordicus]

Body language is something I feel even the AAA rpgs lack compared to what they should be at, moreso then facial animation. We will see how the Witcher 3 pans out in this regard.

I thought that Alpha Protocol actually did facial animations kinda nicely at times.. May be nostalgia talking

 

[Lime]

Its something I wish older games like MotB or the KotORs had becuase the facial animation just wasnt there. The only older game that manages to match this type of text description in animation is Bloodlines and thats because of a combination of the Source engine's excellent facial animation combined with extremely high quality voice acting and dialogue. And even in that game the body language is very limited. Body language is something I feel even the AAA rpgs lack compared to what they should be at, moreso then facial animation. We will see how the Witcher 3 pans out in this regard.

I always wonder why more developers don't copy what Bloodlines did. It cannot only be a question of talent, I presume.

 

[HK-47]

I thought that Alpha Protocol actually did facial animations kinda nicely at times.. May be nostalgia talking

AP was like 2010. Its not very old.

 

[ArjanN]

I always wonder why more developers don't copy what Bloodlines did. It cannot only be a question of talent, I presume.

Well, I think
A) It's hard
B) RPGs mostly go for scale, at the cost of detail.

 

[Amir0x]

It would be interesting to know if these games, building on former glory (Shadowrun, Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2 etc.), sell mostly to the generation who grew up with them (like me) or if younger people who, e.g. never played Baldurs Gate, appreciate these games too.

That would be an interesting statistic to dig up. I suspect that a lot of it is adults with fond memories of these types of PC RPGs, but that some of their enthusiasm is infectious and draws in some new gamers too who perhaps learned they actually love these types of products too.

 

[Kinthalis]

That would be an interesting statistic to dig up. I suspect that a lot of it is adults with fond memories of these types of PC RPGs, but that some of their enthusiasm is infectious and draws in some new gamers too who perhaps learned they actually love these types of products too.

Yeah word of mouth, youtube and twitch streams from fans, good reviews, curator support on Stema,etc, etc, all mean atleast some non-insignificant source fo sales iwll be new blood. Which is good. We need more new people to care about these types of games, or they'll disappear, to be replaced with consoles corridor action game X.

Of course marketing would help enormously in getting new people to try these games Unfortunately, that's not relaly in the cards or budget for most of them.

 

[daveo42]

Whelp, just spent money I probably shouldn't have on this. Looks pretty good so far from what I've seen and I love the Shadowrealm world as someone who just started playing 5th Ed a little over a year ago.

 

[Gurgelhals]

There's a new interview with Jordan Weissman and Mitch Gitelman on RPS:

RPS: You’ve hit a bunch of the stretch goals already – how representative are the sums you tied to them of what the extra stuff will actually cost? Or is it ‘well, we’ll do something?’

Mitch: That was our first Kickstarter [laughs]. We made that one up as we went along. Now that this is our third successful Kickstarter, we did much better planning than on the previous ones. Every single thing in our stretch goals is part of a product plan, part of a budget we put together, saying that if we’re gonna hit this we’re going to need this much money. We really did our homework.

RPS: So you approach Kickstarter as a structured business plan rather than just a shot in the dark?

Mitch: The first one was really Wild West. We were in the Oregon Trail, trying not to get dysentery.

Jordan: Because it was early days of Kickstarter and so we really had no idea what the potential was. We didn’t understand the necessity for planning, so we were making up stretch goals as we went along and then killed ourselves to live up to all of them. This time, it’s our third Kickstarter but it’s also our third Shadowrun campaign. We have a much better handle on what things really cost to do, and that’s what made this much more informed of a process.

RPS: What’s your main objective with the new game, other than ‘more Shadowrun’ and moving the setting to Hong Kong?

Jordan: What’s great about Shadowrun is that it’s a world that really revolves around pretty dark and interesting questions and characters. So Hong Kong is an absolutely fascinating backdrop and setting for the game, and it gives us unique environmental tools to help tell the story, but what people have responded so powerfully to in the previous two Shadowrun games is the characters and their stories. The emotional stuff and the corporate intrigue, and everything which informs their actions, and the decisions that you as a player get to make. Ultimately, in a roleplaying game, that’s what makes it interesting – having to make morally complex selections and choices as you navigate through this world. The Hong Kong setting is enormously dynamic, but it is a dynamic backdrop to what has to be a great story. If we hadn’t identified that great story we wouldn’t’ be on Kickstarter.

That’s our primary thing. We came up with a story and a setting that our audience had told us they were excited about, and then we needed to make it. The other part is we love getting better. The first Shadowrun, we created the entire engine and shipped the first campaign all on one super-accelerated, excited thrust. We did in less than a year. Then the second one, with a much more stable toolset, we were able to improve on that, and add features, add depth of storytelling, add much more non-linear storytelling. And now, coming back a third time, we get to add more to that base engine and even deeper in our storytelling.

Link: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/01/23/shadowrun-returns-sequel/

 

[dancrane212]

I think you're overestimating the cost of ports, actually. The biggest impact would, I think, be the interface redesign. Actually getting it onto a console? I've been the sole porter of a game to console before, with the operative word being sole. The actual port isn't *too* bad provided the engine is built with console ports as an option. Isn't SRR Unity?

Not, I might add, that I think this *should* go to console. I still acknowledge that it's an additional expense and not something they should consider right now. I'm just also saying that I don't see it being millions.

The only consoles they could port Shadowrun to, if the sub-license deal is the same as the one for MechWarrior, would be the 360 and XB1. I image it would be harder to justify the costs of reworking the UI to just release on 2 (and how viable is XBLA these days anyways) platforms.

 

[BrokenFiction]

There's a new interview with Jordan Weissman and Mitch Gitelman on RPS:





Link: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/01/23/shadowrun-returns-sequel/

I like everything I'm hearing about this go around with SR. They really studied and did their homework this time.

 

[TheMrPliskin]

It would be interesting to know if these games, building on former glory (Shadowrun, Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2 etc.), sell mostly to the generation who grew up with them (like me) or if younger people who, e.g. never played Baldurs Gate, appreciate these games too.

Shadowrun is the first game I played of it's type and I was able to enjoy Deadmans Switch and I also loved Dragonfall. I think even if you don't have some attachment to those older games you can still find things to love, for me it was the writing. I would imagine there's a fair number of people with experiences similar to mine, though that number probably doesn't come close to the people who already loved games Baldurs Gate and are thrilled that this stuff is coming back.

 

[ArjanN]

Heh, was wondering where that bump in pledges yesterday came from and realized it was because of an endorsement by that Exploding Kittens kickstarter.

 

[LurkerPrime]

That RPS article does a lot to explain Shadowrun Returns' atrocious everything. I'm really glad HBS was able to recognise the shortcomings of the first game, rather than going "well that's good enough" like some developers.

Every Shadowrun game has been leaps and bounds beyond the previous... and if HK continues this trend... *shivers*

I thought that Alpha Protocol actually did facial animations kinda nicely at times.. May be nostalgia talking

I was going to post pretty much the same thing: Alpha Protocol is one of the few games where I've really admired the use of animations during cutscenes. (Particularly towards the end-game, while talking with The Final Boss.) AP's whole reactive roleplaying system went a long way to legitimizing cinematics and voiced dialog as roleplaying tools.

Spoiler

Obsidian rocks!

But, yeah, Shadowrun's use of descriptive text works wonders for the atmosphere and storytelling. Though it's only truly helpful when the writer is good, as otherwise it becomes awkward and longwinded

Spoiler

like every post I make.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Given the content of the recent interview upthread, I get the impression they hadn't *planned* to need more stretch goals. I think they're quite content with the idea of just using excess as a financial buffer rather than attaching it to specific targets.

I suspect what they'll do as they near $700k is have a sit-down meeting and rack their brains for anything that *would* still be a worthwhile extra quantifiable use for excess funding that'd benefit the game. But I also think they don't want to fall into the trap of overpromising; reining that in allows excess cash to be a safety net and that's something I think many Kickstarter project managers don't realise at first. I suspect they're reasonably content to just say "That's it; no more stretch goals."

Yeah, I think this is really sensible. Maybe they could tack on some minor bonuses, but I'd prefer to see them get everything they've promised done well, on-time and to budget with whatever money comes in rather than throw big things into the pipeline just for the sake of it. Especially if these games are to be sustainable going forward, which I hope they are.

 

[MisterShine]

I believe it was Pillars of Eternity that had a "make everything better" stretch goal. Basically just doing extra passes over each area and system, while tweaking them and adding bits and pieces for extra polish. It's a very nebulous thing obviously but as a goal it helps keep the Kickstarter moving.

 

[HK-47]

Heh, was wondering where that bump in pledges yesterday came from and realized it was because of an endorsement by that Exploding Kittens kickstarter.

Yeah I was wondering if it was just people really pushing for upgraded Matrix but this makes a lot more sense.

 

[Fjordson]

The new stretch goal for a million sounds great. 4-5 hour mini campaign that takes place after the events of the main game. Also allows you to import your characters from the main game.

 

[exmachina64]

Holy shit, guys, mini-campaign!

Yes, you're probably right, I doubt they're going to make something like this for Hong Kong. Just for me personally it'd be the one thing that could get me to pump more money into this project.

You got your wish.

I like that they're apparently already thinking ahead to a fourth campaign (and a third Kickstarter?)

Me too.

 

[HK-47]

I'm gonna have to upgrade for that audio commentary, arent I?

 

[MisterShine]

A four hour playable epilogue? Yes please!

 

[BrokenFiction]

Quick, someone have The Oatmeal repost the Shadowrun KS link so we can get to $1M!

 

[HK-47]

A four hour playable epilogue? Yes please!

I was surprised at how interactive the endings in Dragonfall were. I was quite impressed to be honest.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Damn, that's cool. Part of me hopes that it'll only be a single, massive run and the preparation for it. My one quibble with Dragonfall is that while the missions were generally quite well done, they weren't particularly complex, generally (the Aztechnology run is probably the only one I'd really put up there). One seriously grueling 4-5 hour mission sounds like it'd really hit the spot

I think they're definitely going to clear the 700k stretch goal with ease, so I have high hopes the final push will be enough to put us over the 1mil mark!

 

[LurkerPrime]

If the mini-campaign is more of an epilogue than a sidestory it'll be absolutely cool. I hope the KS reaches that goal.

Quick, someone have The Oatmeal repost the Shadowrun KS link so we can get to $1M!

Alert the pewdiepie.