YesNOnoNOYes
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Im with you, 100%.
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'Shirtstorm' Leads To Apology From European Space Scientist
- Thread starter richiek
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Im with you, 100%.
Dice//
Banned
We should add this as a "PS" to every response to filter "it's just a shirt" comments.
That's what I thought until I read the rest of it.
Had Plante's artcle been an Op-Ed I would be less forgiving but it's not. Had it just been an article about the concern of why the shirt wasn't discussed as possibility of offending some people and distracting from the achievement I would not have a problem with it. Different things mean different things to different people especially when it comes to sexualization.
The tweet in particular I believe is hypocritical.
Different things mean different things to many people when it comes to sexualization. Can someone find it offensive? Yes I agree. Can it represent to someone the discrimination they face? It can but its not universal. Can you make a generalization from that? How would you back that up objectively? The tweet says "women" not "I as a women I feel this shirt.." That to me is a generalization. I say hypocritical because it trivializes many different things about sexism and women by passing her personal opinion as a base to generalize sexism among women of different backgrounds and their experience. She does not speak for native South, Central, North American, African American, Hispanic women or even white women etc. Conversely, Plante if his attempt was to discuss casual sexism he doesn't acknowledge gay, lesbian or gender nonconformist of which whom 90% are affected, the highest by far of all groups. (Google Gender Non-conformist, sexism 2011-14 is some of the reading I've done in the past.) I call it a fabrication because it sounds like a story to get me emotionally involved with no references to journals on the matter to read it.
Sorry to quote myself but I found an additional source with regards to women and minorities in STEM and it's a doozy.
The Cowboy
Member
Wohoo, https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/matt-taylor-rosetta-project-scientist#home
Its funded at the 1st level, nice to see that Matt will be getting a pretty nice watch, I'd rather he didn't get the watch and instead hadn't been put through this whole thing - but its a nice gesture none the less.
Its funded at the 1st level, nice to see that Matt will be getting a pretty nice watch, I'd rather he didn't get the watch and instead hadn't been put through this whole thing - but its a nice gesture none the less.
I don't mind it thought it was a great post. Youre posting research and that's a good thing.
I do need to take the word irresponsible back when describing the tweet. I also must apologize if I appear to be policing Rose Eleveths words. I don't agree with it but I don't feel she's responsible for the this internet vigilante / activism (for or against her) nor should she be.
I work as a developer and I attend grad school for a master of computer science. I can tell you I get mighty lonely when it comes to my field. I am aiming to become more knowledgeable when it comes to sexism because it also affects me.
I literally edited this simple post 10 times. I'm heading to bed. I also forgot to meet friends for a movie. Ugh.
"your momentous achievement for humanity was torpedoed and your heart wrenched out because your shirt was a little too gnarly for a few peoples' tastes; here's a watch."
Herpes Reasons
Banned
Awesome.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
started by a #gamergater no less. lol
gesture is nice but it's being done because he was apparently bullied and was FORCED to apologize? yeah ok.
Excuse me for having not read this whole thread, but isn't the only actual debate here whether or not it is sexist to depict women in a suggestive/lightly dressed way on clothing, and if it is then ok to wear a shirt such as that when you are in the public eye as a professional scientist?
So, for point one, I can see why some women might feel offended by such a shirt. They might feel that it objectifies women, or reduces them to a decoration/pattern on a shirt.
Personally I would not see that as offensive, because my stance on the concept of objectification would not be compatible with being offended by this shirt. Furthermore, if putting suggestively dressed women on a shirt is offensive, than it's safe to assume that putting suggestively dressed people on anything is offensive period. And that would be a very slippery slope to climb, if you ask me.
Point two, I personally believe it should be acceptable to wear whatever fashion you want, as long as it isn't literally indecent (i.e. it doesn't have images that wouldn't be suitable for children/anyone to see). Just because he is a scientist doesn't mean he isn't also a human being with interests, hobbies, and personal tastes. He clearly is into eye-catching/colorful/"loud" displays of fashion, from his tattoos to the shirt, so why should he have to leave a part of himself out of his work persona?
That said, I don't think society is ready to accept that scientists aren't all nerds who wear pocket protectors all day, and his job is clearly somewhat prestigious/desirable, so perhaps he should have weighed those things against his own desire for personal expression through fashion.
Overall though I think we can all agree this is pretty much a non-story when put side by side with what was actually accomplished.
So, for point one, I can see why some women might feel offended by such a shirt. They might feel that it objectifies women, or reduces them to a decoration/pattern on a shirt.
Personally I would not see that as offensive, because my stance on the concept of objectification would not be compatible with being offended by this shirt. Furthermore, if putting suggestively dressed women on a shirt is offensive, than it's safe to assume that putting suggestively dressed people on anything is offensive period. And that would be a very slippery slope to climb, if you ask me.
Point two, I personally believe it should be acceptable to wear whatever fashion you want, as long as it isn't literally indecent (i.e. it doesn't have images that wouldn't be suitable for children/anyone to see). Just because he is a scientist doesn't mean he isn't also a human being with interests, hobbies, and personal tastes. He clearly is into eye-catching/colorful/"loud" displays of fashion, from his tattoos to the shirt, so why should he have to leave a part of himself out of his work persona?
That said, I don't think society is ready to accept that scientists aren't all nerds who wear pocket protectors all day, and his job is clearly somewhat prestigious/desirable, so perhaps he should have weighed those things against his own desire for personal expression through fashion.
Overall though I think we can all agree this is pretty much a non-story when put side by side with what was actually accomplished.
Of course it fucking is.
Yes, because he can't speak for himself and more importantly he can not of his own free will consider what he did a mistake. Nope it's SJW and their damn bullying (if we ignore that a lot of the initial outcry came from the STEM community).
I'm confused. How do they know where to mail the watch to?
Its a #gamergater. I'm sure whoever it is already has an address, phone number, and e-mail of him and all his family and friends.
The Cowboy
Member
Well they know where he works and they have his twitter name, plus his friends email address (the woman who made the shirt) - it shouldn't be to hard to get it to him.
Dice//
Banned
I think the fact that so many people don't have an issue with it speaks volumes about the debate here, as those that do have an issue with it have the louder voice. We don't know if he was forced into apologising just as much as we don't know if he apologised because he wanted to. Basically that group is being out-yelled and told repeatedly "it's not just about the shirt", and that's it. If you don't have an issue with it chances are you're a #gamergater. Hm ok.
Dice//
Banned
Or not looking like a bone-head on television.
#truth
One of the core concepts of liberalism is equality. This is not incompatible with that.
Herpes Reasons
Banned
Yep. OldMan yelling at cloud.
Equality or freedom of expression? Sometimes they are incompatible.
Are you saying he wasn't bullied?
how is that not a reasonable thing to ask for?
Dice//
Banned
Really? I pulled the worst of it with that innocuous comment?
A group of scientists make a landmark achievement, and think "lets go on the air with 'silly' shirt to tell the world about it!!"
Television, journalism, news, or a great deal of other careers do have some aspect of dressing appropriately or professionally to represent their team or field of practice.
No, it doesn't.
This person who actually spoke to him said he was genuinely remorseful, does that count?
Well seeing as how it
1) It isn't just about the shirt.
2) The organised "defence" force for this has a mysteriously large overlap with gg, I'm sure that is just a coincidence.
I would call that a fair assessment.
No one is challenging his freedom of expression. I don't know why some of you insist that criticism for doing something means you don't want someone to have freedom. If you make a statement and I tell you that statement was bad, I'm not attacking your free speech.
Because you're asking every individual to try and determine what may or may not be offensive to a group of people.
Herpes Reasons
Banned
You're offending me by making this an issue. Apologize.
How so? Are they here, in this case?
you chase a 50 year old man around a stage with a 10ft shitty zombie prop from the 80s and it's embarrassing. you do it at an iron maiden show and it's awesome.
there is a context to the shirt, which is the guy himself. he likes metal, tattoos and science. there's a whole lot of room for expression there and the shirt sits right along side the portrait of the dragon riding a harley he's got over his mantle piece. a heavy mix of humour, irony and outlandishness.
he's speaking to you in a language too metal for you to understand.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I had a smile, then a sad
Yes, a context you seem to be ignorant of. Do I need to quote that long post I made on the previous page or are you capable of finding it yourself?
A man was disparaged and made the focal point for a social movement based on a mildly (at worst) offensive shirt. Was that fair to him?
it's posts like which make me wish we were having this conversation on any other forum.
Perhaps he was personally attacked by some, but that doesn't actually limit his freedom to wear the shirt. Nor does it mean that the shirt is necessarily bad in all contexts. The shirt, itself, is also not directly impeding women's equality. But that was a problematic time to be wearing it in regards to a wider system of oppression against women. I don't think that makes his freedom incompatible with women's equality though, necessarily. As he seems to have changed his mind on the matter, then clearly those two things are compatible.
Dice//
Banned
I can't even begin to guess what you're trying to say here (or hope you're not going in a certain direction).
Why, and can I choose which other forum?
And before you get on the "he speaks in a language you don't understand" bullshit again, no I understand it. I have friends who are like him (some even in STEM). Still was a stupid thing to wear that shirt.
Herpes Reasons
Banned
Uh huh. Thought so.
Sorry that your attempt to counter me was very transparent
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Why don't you make an actual argument instead of the "I'm offended you're offended!" bullshit like a normal adult?
Herpes Reasons
Banned
You expect people who MAY offend others to apologize. You won't do the same. That you actually want to live in a world where each person should consider whether what they wear or say will offend ANYONE is quite frightening.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Man, what are you even referencing?
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