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[itxaka]

Can someone explain like 5 what was the issue here?

Wears ridicule shirt, people gets offended, apologies. Then... Why is this still a thing? Why is this shadowing a 12 years mission?

It feels like people just want to discuss all the time and find problems everywhere. Maybe I'm getting old, but I understand less and less this days in this kind of "dramas"*

*please don't be offended by anything in my post.

 

[Mumei]

You sure are tenacious and on-message, I'll give you that.

Beatings will continue until morale improves!

He's also right. You were arguing this same line with me earlier, and it still does not follow. If someone thinks that a shirt like that is going to be appropriate (or doesn't even consider that it might not be), that says something about the environment they are choosing to wear it in. If a person wears a shirt like that and no one tells them that it is a problem before they show up on camera, that says something about the organization. If a person wears a shirt like that, is criticized for it, and that criticism is met with whining about Tumblr, feminism, outrage culture, oversensitivity, cries of, "It's just a shirt!" and a transparent unwillingness to learn about the issue, that doesn't say anything about the organization - but it definitely says something about the larger culture that makes these things possible.

And frankly I find it difficult to be sympathetic to the complaints that KHarvey is being too abrasive - something I'd be the first to admit is something I actually find annoying - when I know from years of experience that being nice only pays off in having less contentious arguments. It doesn't seem to pay off in having people listen to what you have to say.

 

[Evil_Silver]

This is a post I made giving some background info on women in STEM, why scientists and their behaviour when they are in the spotlight matter and dispelling some common arguments.

This is a post that Yrael made giving some public perspectives from people in the fields of astrophysics and science.

Please read these. And I would like to know precisely why politics and science must always be desperate, isn't political decisions based on scientific data something do be desired?

All those "perpectives" were all really saying the same thing. They all thought it was inappropriate and sent a bad message to women in STEM. But they know this how? Have they talked to all the women in STEM and asked them if they are offended or even care? Why is there a frikken 30+ page thread on this. This shouldn't overshadow a 12 year mission.

 

[UrbanRats]

Reading some of the reactions\opinions from Yrael's post (thank you for it, btw) it seems like some have a problem with the shirt in that specific context, whereas others have a problem with the shirt itself.

The first position i understand, i thought it was a poor wardrobe choice, given the problems with women integration that the STEM field has.

The second one i don't get, because i don't think that shirt is inherently problematic, and i see it having obvious ironic connotations, sort of like Perturbator's sexual and nostalgic retro album covers, i don't think it implies its wearer as being someone with a lesser opinion of women or anything like that.

 

[not_so_special]

You're the second poster to claim I'm attacking people and following it up with an actual personal attack. I'm sorry that your ridiculous tactics being called out makes you so upset. Maybe you shouldn't engage in textbook trolling nonsense?

because you are,im tried to just read the thread and being neutral,but your post are of a very toxic nature,i respect mumei or besada point of view (even if i dont agree) but you attitude its worrysome and very rude to the other posters,with people acting like you its hard to have any civil discussion

 

[KHarvey16]

Can someone explain like 5 what was the issue here?

Wears ridicule shirt, people gets offended, apologies. Then... Why is this still a thing? Why is this shadowing a 12 years mission?

It feels like people just want to discuss all the time and find problems everywhere. Maybe I'm getting old, but I understand less and less this days in this kind of "dramas"*

*please don't be offended by anything in my post.

He wore the shirt, it caused some uproar (some of it crossing the line into abuse, but this has been condemned by most) and the man apologized. The apology was sincere and heartfelt. The discussion now is about why the apology was appropriate, what the shirt represents about the culture of STEM and why it's important to discuss these kinds of things. As far as this thread is concerned, some are dropping by without having read anything to call everyone dumb for letting this thread have too many pages. Unfortunately very few have done as you have and actually asked a question, so thanks for that.

I don't think anyone wants this to overshadow anything, but I do think it's appropriate to expect that both accolades and interest in the mission exist alongside an earnest, serious discussion about sexism and gender.

 

[berzeli]

All those "perpectives" were all really saying the same thing. They all thought it was inappropriate and sent a bad message to women in STEM. But they know this how? Have they talked to all the women in STEM and asked them if they are offended or even care? Why is there a frikken 30+ page thread on this. This shouldn't overshadow a 12 year mission.

Because a lot of them are women in STEM and the research I linked suggests that positive role models and STEM culture plays a significant role in the number women and minorities who seek out, study, and work in STEM fields.

Even if it's a minority that holds an opinion that does not invalidate that opinion.

 

[jakonovski]

He's also right. You were arguing this same line with me earlier, and it still does not follow. If someone thinks that a shirt like that is going to be appropriate (or doesn't even consider that it might not be), that says something about the environment they are choosing to wear it in. If a person wears a shirt like that and no one tells them that it is a problem before they show up on camera, that says something about the organization. If a person wears a shirt like that, is criticized for it, and that criticism is met with whining about Tumblr, feminism, outrage culture, oversensitivity, cries of, "It's just a shirt!" and a transparent unwillingness to learn about the issue, that doesn't say anything about the organization - but it definitely says something about the larger culture that makes these things possible.

It can say something about them for sure. But I have witnessed completely socially aware people, including feminists whom I consider close friends, miss issues of presentation and implied messages in a workplace context. Often this has happened due to reasons not connected to the issues. I cannot assign blame as readily as you and will continue to resist calls to do so.

 

[Brakke]

It's super totally empty to come at KHarvey with "that kind of abrasive tone won't win anyone over". If you're really so controlled and self-aware that you can identify a tone (and I think your read on that tone is wrong, but whatever), then you're obviously not being so emotionally inflamed that you can't also follow the logic and arguments Harv is advancing.

It's like, congrats, you're claiming to be above the melee, to have a better view on the subject, but then you still make the choice to engage emotionally with tone instead of intellectually with the argument. Totally asinine.

 

[itxaka]

He wore the shirt, it caused some uproar (some of it crossing the line into abuse, but this has been condemned by most) and the man apologized. The apology was sincere and heartfelt. The discussion now is about why the apology was appropriate, what the shirt represents about the culture of STEM and why it's important to discuss these kinds of things. As far as this thread is concerned, some are dropping by without having read anything to call everyone dumb for letting this thread have too many pages. Unfortunately very few have done as you have and actually asked a question, so thanks for that.

I don't think anyone wants this to overshadow anything, but I do think it's appropriate to expect that both accolades and interest in the mission exist alongside an earnest, serious discussion about sexism and gender.

Understood, thanks for taking time to respond.

Its kind of a shame that things like this have to arise to have a proper discussion on important stuff as it affects third parties badly and there is way too much emotions involved.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

Is he a sexist? From the background information most reasonable people agree it doesn't seem like it. Is the shirt sexist? Hell if I know. If it was a Botticelli on the shirt would people be in uproar? Was Rumsfeld acting as a paragon of feminism when he covered up the Spirit of Justice? To what degree does the quality of the art, posing, gender of the artist or the wearer determine if it's sexist? A significant amount of the controversy is probably attributable to the subjective nature of those criteria. If a female scientist had instead worn a shirt with a bunch of shirtless dudes, I could see some of the people complaining about it now saying it was empowering, and some of the people defending it now complaining that it proved a sexist double standard.

My impression is that it's not sexist in itself, but it's not a clear line because context matters. It comes down to where you think the line between individual expression and responsibility to society should fall. I see where the people who say it may inadvertently send the wrong message in this context are coming from. I also believe there's a way to convey that without being an asshole about it to the point that you make the dude break down in tears. That's not just for his benefit, but also for the benefit of the cause you are trying to support. Nobody likes a bully, and by being one you run the risk of making the issue about you instead of the issue itself. Sometimes I wonder how much certain people care about an issue versus how much they care about being holier than thou.

This isn't some foaming at the mouth misogynist. He's just a dude who spent the last several years helping send a tin can hurtling 4 billion miles through the inky void to land on space rock instead of studying the nuances of the causes of gender inequality. Wearing the shirt in this context is arguably a mistake, but to claim it somehow undermines everything he and the other team members accomplished (as in the Verge article) is the kind of mean-spirited sarcastic hyperbole that makes the very people you would hope to convince roll their eyes. It's counterproductive because instead of convincing people of the importance of your issue, you instead draw a line in the sand. On one side are the people who are always right about everything (you and everyone who agrees with you), and on the other are the people who are wrong (human excrement). There's no room for conversation, for human imperfection, because you've already set the terms, either people agree with you or they are trash not worth listening to. There's no room for grey--for the possibility that this is just an average dude who maybe has questionable fashion tastes. There needs to be a middle ground between the perfect angels and literally Hitler, because if the standard is perfection no one can meet it, so why should they bother trying?

I mean it's easy to forgive the guy now if you complained about his shirt because he apologized, but what if he hadn't? It's possible to disagree with someone's choices without hating them or turning them into the enemy, but when you isolate yourself into a group of like-minded people it's easy to lose perspective. That's as true of people in the "boys' club" as it is of the internet activists who might hope to change it. We could all (myself included) do with practicing a little more empathy.

I really do think this is what the average person is going to take away when they look at this situation.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

All those "perpectives" were all really saying the same thing. They all thought it was inappropriate and sent a bad message to women in STEM. But they know this how? Have they talked to all the women in STEM and asked them if they are offended or even care? Why is there a frikken 30+ page thread on this. This shouldn't overshadow a 12 year mission.

Fifteen perspectives from men and women in STEM isn't enough to convince you that men and women in STEM had a problem with the appropriateness of the attire. You're wondering why this discussion has gone on so long? It's because people come in here without reading a thing and assume everyone is worked up over absolutely nothing, demonstrating little more than hard-headed ignorance or at best an unwillingness to honestly engage with the issue, choosing instead to rail at strawmen.

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

People are way too hung up on appearances. It is actually irrelevant to the task at hand. I also pretty sure if it was a woman wearing a shirt with half naked men on it, it wouldn't be a problem.

 

[CygnusXS]

People are way too hung up on appearances. It is actually irrelevant to the task at hand. I also pretty sure if it was a woman wearing a shirt with half naked men on it, it wouldn't be a problem.

Can you say, specifically, why you don't think the inverse of this situation would be contentious?

 

[JJDinomite]

What people think STEM majors look like:

What they actually look like:

 

[UrbanRats]

People are way too hung up on appearances. It is actually irrelevant to the task at hand. I also pretty sure if it was a woman wearing a shirt with half naked men on it, it wouldn't be a problem.

Sexualization and objectification of men and women in society isn't on an equal level.
That's gonna factor in when you assess the collateral effects of something like this.

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

Can you say, specifically, why you don't think the inverse of this situation would be contentious?

Because in general in media I have seen an overwhelming amount of criticism in sexualization of women rather than sexualizing men.

 

[UrbanRats]

Because in general in media I have seen an overwhelming amount of criticism in sexualization of women rather than sexualizing men.

Again, women have been treated like sexual objects since forever, and even today greater pressure gets put on their appearance even when is completely irrelevant.

 

[Evil_Silver]

Fifteen perspectives from men and women in STEM isn't enough to convince you that men and women in STEM had a problem with the appropriateness of the attire. You're wondering why this discussion has gone on so long? It's because people come in here without reading a thing and assume everyone is worked up over absolutely nothing, demonstrating little more than hard-headed ignorance or at best an unwillingness to honestly engage with the issue, choosing instead to rail at strawmen.

Let me ask you this. Is there anything intrinsically wrong with the shirt? If people thought it was inappropriate in the given context fine. I get it. But there are people who are placing a value of what type of person he is based on the shirt. There are people who are labeling the shirt as misogynistic, sexist, and wrong. That is there opinion. If someone doesn't agree with it, it doesn't make them any worser of a person or ignorant or misinformed. They just don't see it the same way.

 

[CygnusXS]

Because in general in media I have seen an overwhelming amount of criticism in sexualization of women rather than sexualizing men.

Do you think you've also seen a greater level of sexualization of women?

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Let me ask you this. Is there anything intrinsically wrong with the shirt? If people thought it was inappropriate in the given context fine. I get it. But there are people who are placing a value of what type of person he is based on the shirt. There are people who are labeling the shirt as misogynistic, sexist, and wrong. That is there opinion. If someone doesn't agree with it, it doesn't make them any worser of a person.

I suppose if I were to look at the shirt devoid of all context I wouldn't have a problem with it existing, but doing so advances no understanding of the issue people had when it was worn by someone representing the ESA during what should have been a great celebration for the team. I suppose there are people out there who continue to assume the worst of Matt Taylor's character, but such people ignored or rejected his apology and probably aren't being very rational about it.

 

[Evil_Silver]

I suppose if I were to look at the shirt devoid of all context I wouldn't have a problem with it existing, but doing so advances no understanding of the issue people had when it was worn by someone representing the ESA during what should have been a great celebration for the team. I suppose there are people out there who continue to assume the worst of Matt Taylor's character, but such people ignored or rejected his apology and probably aren't being very rational about it.

But a large part of the outrage is because people think the shirt is instrinsically sexist which is a problem. This is what is pushing people away. Because if people don't see a problem with the shirt, they are automatically in the wrong, even if they see women under-representation in the STEM field as a problem.

 

[Brakke]

Let me ask you this. Is there anything intrinsically wrong with the shirt? If people thought it was inappropriate in the given context fine. I get it. But there are people who are placing a value of what type of person he is based on the shirt. There are people who are labeling the shirt as misogynistic, sexist, and wrong. That is there opinion. If someone doesn't agree with it, it doesn't make them any worser of a person or ignorant or misinformed. They just don't see it the same way.

There's a misunderstanding here. You even typed the nuanced understanding but seem to have missed it.

Labeling the shirt sexist and wrong is different than labeling the dude sexist / misogynist. This is a distinction I make myself: dude seems like a solid--if tactless human. His apology was sincere, he seems like a sweet guy; I'd be glad to meet him.

Good people make bad statements all the time, often by mistake. Doing so doesn't neccessarily invalidate their goodness. This is why we invented apology and teach it to our children.

Who are the "they" you're talking about? I think there are fewer of "them" than you think there are.

But a large part of the outrage is because people think the shirt is instrinsically sexist which is a problem. This is what is pushing people away. Because if people don't see a problem with the shirt, they are automatically in the wrong, even if they see women under-representation in the STEM field as a problem.

But why is that bad? Claiming "I believe women under-represented in STEM is a problem" is empty if you don't also behave Ina way that's sensitive to that problem. Claiming the shirt isn't a problem perpetuates a feeling of women being unwelcome in STEM, if someone is actively working against a cause they claim to be concerned about, they should be told that they're blowing it.

 

[Irminsul]

Let me ask you this. Is there anything intrinsically wrong with the shirt? If people thought it was inappropriate in the given context fine. I get it. But there are people who are placing a value of what type of person he is based on the shirt. There are people who are labeling the shirt as misogynistic, sexist, and wrong. That is there opinion. If someone doesn't agree with it, it doesn't make them any worser of a person or ignorant or misinformed. They just don't see it the same way.

Well, if you have people talking about "this side of the fence", it's not hard to see why what you described would be the case.

 

[Evil_Silver]

There's a misunderstanding here. You even typed the nuanced understanding but seem to have missed it.

Labeling the shirt sexist and wrong is different than labeling the dude sexist / misogynist. This is a distinction I make myself: dude seems like a solid--if tactless human. His apology was sincere, he seems like a sweet guy; I'd be glad to meet him.

Good people make bad statements all the time, often by mistake. Doing so doesn't neccessarily invalidate their goodness. This is why we invented apology and teach it to our children.

Who are the "they" you're talking about? I think there are fewer of "them" than you think there are.

I know there is a difference. But there are some people who don't make that distinction, and are judging his character baed on the shirt.

 

[Brakke]

I know there is a difference. But there are some people who don't make that distinction, and are judging his character baed on the shirt.

Who?

 

[CygnusXS]

But a large part of the outrage is because people think the shirt is instrinsically sexist which is a problem. This is what is pushing people away. Because if people don't see a problem with the shirt, they are automatically in the wrong, even if they see women under-representation in the STEM field as a problem.

Nothing removed from all context is intrinsically sexist though. The context is the actually important part.

And I'm not sure why people disagreeing with the idea that the shirt doesn't promote sexism is a problem? You can be simultaneously right about one thing and wrong about another. Having people tell you you're wrong about something is a good opportunity to investigate if you actually may be wrong about something.

 

[UrbanRats]

But a large part of the outrage is because people think the shirt is instrinsically sexist which is a problem. This is what is pushing people away. Because if people don't see a problem with the shirt, they are automatically in the wrong, even if they see women under-representation in the STEM field as a problem.

But why is that bad? Claiming "I believe women under-represented in STEM is a problem" is empty if you don't also behave Ina way that's sensitive to that problem. Claiming the shirt isn't a problem perpetuates a feeling of women being unwelcome in STEM, if someone is actively working against a cause they claim to be concerned about, they should be told that they're blowing it.

I both believe that shirt was inappropriate for that context, and that as a shirt (for another occasion) is perfectly fine.
And i'm not sure why that should push me "away" from the discussion.

 

[RedShift]

I think the shirt was a poor choice. But it's clear he didn't mean to offend anyone, he just wanted to wear a shirt his friend made for him. On it's own that shirt probably didn't cause any women to give up becoming astrophysicists or anything, why should he get the blame for a problem that exists across society?

The dude made a small mistake, with entirely good intentions, and for that he got people writing articles saying he's a misogynist and he's everything wrong with 'STEM culture', and loads of people harassing him on Twitter during what should have been one of the most awesome moments of his life.

I do get Mumei's point about it being indicative of the ESA's culture that no one stopped him from wearing it, but when would someone have told him to change his shirt? For a start I think he's most of those people's boss, I doubt they'd be comfortable telling him what to wear. More importantly though they all had rather more pressing things on their mind. Is it really reasonable to expect the lead scientist of a ten year long mission to leave mission control, go and find another shirt and change during the actual landing of the probe that everyone has dedicated themselves to getting to this comet? Especially when it was as fraught as it was, with the thruster failing, the harpoons not firing, the comet being harder then expected, and the whole lander bouncing a kilometre off the ground... They probably didn't have much time to go about enforcing the dress code.

Ultimately this guy made a pretty tiny mistake, and for that he got a whole mountain of shit piled on him. And I think that that mountain of shit did a whole lot more damage than his tacky shirt did.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Eveleth's been receiving death threats because she dared criticize the shirt.

Ladies and gentlemen, the compounded asshole maneuver.

The guy probably should have thought about the shirt before he wore it to avoid giving off the wrong impression. People should probably have not decided to brand this guy based on one stupid idea. And people most definitely shouldn't be escalating this to death threats.

There's something about people doing stupid things that makes some people say, "how can I make this situation worse?!" Le sigh.

 

[BocoDragon]

The biggest effect this will have is that HR in science will become anal about dress codes.

If this really is about women in STEM, then I hope the discussion moves away from shirts. It's a drop in the bucket of the issue.

 

[wsippel]

What people think STEM majors look like:

What they actually look like:

Yet 30-40% of the people with a STEM degree are female according ot OECD. It rose slightly over the last decade, but it wasn't exactly insignificant ten years ago, either.

 

[A Link to the Past]

The biggest effect this will have is that HR in science will become anal about dress codes.

If this really is about women in STEM, then I hope the discussion moves away from shirts. It's a drop in the bucket of the issue.

People are trying like hell to move away from shirts. The people keeping it about shirts are the ones who respond to attempts to make this about STEM culture by saying "it's just a shirt!!"

 

[Christine]

Is it really reasonable to expect the lead scientist of a ten year long mission to leave mission control, go and find another shirt and change during the actual landing of the probe that everyone has dedicated themselves to getting to this comet?

He had his company polo on under the shirt, so all he had to do was take it off. Which he did in fact do before the actual landing.

 

[RedShift]

He had his company polo on under the shirt, so all he had to do was take it off. Which he did in fact do before the actual landing.

Ah fair enough I didn't know that.

But I still don't think it was the first thing on people's minds, or even the fiftieth thing.

 

[BocoDragon]

People are trying like hell to move away from shirts. The people keeping it about shirts are the ones who respond to attempts to make this about STEM culture by saying "it's just a shirt!!"

Well ultimately I can see why as this is the thread about the shirt. But I mean in greater society. The conversation is ultimately good.

 

[wsippel]

Ah fair enough I didn't know that.

But I still don't think it was the first thing on people's minds, or even the fiftieth thing.

It probably was one of the first things on his mind, as he probably wore the shirt as a shoutout to the woman who made it for him. Which would make the whole thing even more absurd and tragic.

 

[Mononoke]

I don't understand why some are arguing that there isn't a sexist culture in these fields. It feels like, we are arguing semantics over the shirt. The shirt either represents the culture, or it doesn't. But the culture still exists regardless. So even if you don't think the shirt was bad personally, or was a reflection of something greater, it's still an issue we are dealing with.

Or maybe I'm just missing the point. If I am, my apologies. I also just think that, if people are telling you they are offended by it, you should probably listen. That doesn't mean that, people being offended are always right. But when it comes to issues like this, and those wanting to discuss why their gender is discriminated against, or that they have a hard time because a specific environment is pushed against their gender, it's probably wise to at least hear them out. And understand their point of view.

Anyways, I think the shirt the was definitely in inappropriate. If we want to argue whether the shirt itself is inherently sexist or not, that's another debate. At least for me, the shirt becomes offensive in the context of how it's worn. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing you should wear to a work place. The same way a women wearing a shirt that had a bunch of sexualized dudes on it, wouldn't be appropriate. Sexualized attire in general, isn't really appropriate for work.

 

[wsippel]

I don't understand why some are arguing that there isn't a sexist culture in these fields. It feels like, we are arguing semantics over the shirt. The shirt either represents the culture, or it doesn't. But the culture still exists regardless. So even if you don't think the shirt was bad personally, or was a reflection of something greater, it's still an issue we are dealing with.

Or maybe I'm just missing the point. If I am, my apologies.

I'm pretty sure the shirt represents a culture, but I'm also pretty sure the culture it represents has fuck all to do with science. The thing people fail to realize is that one can be a scientist and something else, in this case a tattoo and rockabilly nut, at the same time. And I don't think there even are clothes that represent science culture (if such a thing even exists) in the first place. I mean, it's society's fault if they believe all scientists look like something out of The Big Bang Theory and get totally confused when actual scientists don't live up to their expectations.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

It probably was one of the first things on his mind, as he probably wore the shirt as a shoutout to the woman who made it for him. Which would make the whole thing even more absurd and tragic.

This is not even close to being anything resembling a tragedy. That kind of hyperbole does nothing but harm whatever point you're trying to make.

I'm pretty sure the shirt represents a culture, but I'm also pretty sure the culture it represents has fuck all to do with science. The thing people fail to realize is that one can be a scientist and something else, in this case a tattoo and rockabilly nut, at the same time. And I don't think there even are clothes that represent science culture (if such a thing even exists) in the first place. I mean, it's society's fault if they believe all scientists look like something out of The Big Bang Theory and get totally confused when actual scientists don't live up to their expectations.

No one is actually making this mistake. Thinking this has anything to do with a misunderstanding of scientists being people is so far removed from the actual point.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

This is a post I made giving some background info on women in STEM, why scientists and their behaviour when they are in the spotlight matter and dispelling some common arguments.

This is a post that Yrael made giving some public perspectives from people in the fields of astrophysics and science.

Please read these. And I would like to know precisely why politics and science must always be desperate, isn't political decisions based on scientific data something do be desired?

I love these two posts, so I went back to reread and I just want to thank both berzeli and yrael for putting the time to collate all of these together so nicely.

 

[Mononoke]

I'm pretty sure the shirt represents a culture, but I'm also pretty sure the culture it represents has fuck all to do with science. The thing people fail to realize is that one can be a scientist and something else, in this case a tattoo and rockabilly nut, at the same time. And I don't think there even are clothes that represent science culture (if such a thing even exists) in the first place. I mean, it's society's fault if they believe all scientists look like something out of The Big Bang Theory and get totally confused when actual scientists don't live up to their expectations.

I guess I just feel like, the bigger issue is getting lost in the mix. There is this focus on whether the shirt itself is sexist or not. Then again, I guess if the debate is shifting towards the larger "culture"...then I guess I understand why it's shifting that way. I guess my post was kind of non-sense. It's hard to explain what I was trying to say.

Basically, I just hope people aren't arguing against the problems there is, or ignoring it, because they are getting caught up on defending a shirt. IF they actually don't think there is a culture, or problem, then I would hope they at least explain why they think there isn't an issue with females in STEM etc.

 

[wsippel]

This is not even close to being anything resembling a tragedy. That kind of hyperbole does nothing but harm whatever point you're trying to make.

Ruining this event for the guy and the girl who made the shirt is tragic. You'd feel like shit, too.

I guess I just feel like, the bigger issue is getting lost in the mix. There is this focus on whether the shirt itself is sexist or not. Then again, I guess if the debate is shifting towards the larger "culture"...then I guess I understand why it's shifting that way. I guess my post was kind of non-sense. It's hard to explain what I was trying to say.

Basically, I just hope people aren't arguing against the problems there is, or ignoring it, because they are getting caught up on defending a shirt. IF they actually don't think there is a culture, or problem, then I would hope they at least explain why they think there isn't an issue with females in STEM etc.

But context is always important. And not knowing or understanding the context sadly doesn't stop people from complaining and commenting anyway, which is a huge issue in itself in my opinion, because it's ignorant, a waste of time and energy, and often times detracts attention from the actual issues. So I assume we're on the same page.

To me, it's similar to representation of women in video games (and other media): There are massive issues, and something has to be done, but the first thing on the agenda should be to correctly identify the issues. And many people apparently can't identify the issues properly because they don't work in those fields and don't have first hand knowledge, so they simply point fingers at easy targets that are, in my opinion at least, neither the reason for nor the result of those issues.

 

[RiccochetJ]

I guess I just feel like, the bigger issue is getting lost in the mix. There is this focus on whether the shirt itself is sexist or not. Then again, I guess if the debate is shifting towards the larger "culture"...then I guess I understand why it's shifting that way. I guess my post was kind of non-sense. It's hard to explain what I was trying to say.

Basically, I just hope people aren't arguing against the problems there is, or ignoring it, because they are getting caught up on defending a shirt. IF they actually don't think there is a culture, or problem, then I would hope they at least explain why they think there isn't an issue with females in STEM etc.

I'd like to think that most people recognize that the shirt was inappropriate and could easily make some people uncomfortable. While I think that he was appropriately called out on it, and I think his apology was pretty awesome, I also think the level of shit thrown his way was completely and utterly unacceptable and went into the realm of the absurd.

There definitely is an issue with society and a lot of occupations being a largely boy's club. There are barriers that need to be utterly destroyed and the ideology should go extinct.

 

[Novocaine]

I wish people would stop getting offended at dumb shit.

 

[ebullientprism]

I have been misreading the thread title for days now. I genuinely thought this thread was about some space scientist apologizing for the destruction of a space station septic tank over a city. :/

 

[Mononoke]

I'd like to think that most people recognize that the shirt was inappropriate and could easily make some people uncomfortable. While I think that he was appropriately called out on it, and I think his apology was pretty awesome, I also think the level of shit thrown his way was completely and utterly unacceptable and went into the realm of the absurd.

There definitely is an issue with society and a lot of occupations being a largely boy's club. There are barriers that need to be utterly destroyed and the ideology should go extinct.

Yeah. I'm kind of afraid of the mob mentality that can sweep up in a fervor. They have every right to be upset. To voice their criticisms. God knows some people have had to deal with a lifetime of bullshit because of their race or gender. But I also think, apart of becoming a better society is educating those that that are ignorant. So it worries me sometimes how people go after those that might not understand.

 

[lifa-cobex]

I wish people would stop getting offended at dumb shit.

Some people Fucking hate cotton.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

All those "perpectives" were all really saying the same thing. They all thought it was inappropriate and sent a bad message to women in STEM. But they know this how? Have they talked to all the women in STEM and asked them if they are offended or even care? Why is there a frikken 30+ page thread on this. This shouldn't overshadow a 12 year mission.

You just read a bunch of consistent reactions mostly by women directly involved in the field in question, thoughtfully compiled for people looking for evidence and knowledge of the situation, and your reaction is "have we talked to all women in STEM?" Come on.

 

[shanshan310]

There must be a complete consensus by the women before any conclusion can be reached or statement made Liu Kang, it is known.

I wish people would stop getting offended at dumb shit.

I see a lot more people complaining about how horrible it is that people are offended than I do actual people who are offended. Is it really than unreasonable for other people to have opinions? I'm so tired of hearing "pc police" and having people put out that stephen fry quote whenever anyone calls out anything. At least think about why the shirt might be upsetting to other people, or try to contribute to the conversation.