The message is absolutely sent as it is perceived by those around you. That may be a mis-communication, or not, but people form responses before they are even consciously aware of it be they men or women.
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'Shirtstorm' Leads To Apology From European Space Scientist
- Thread starter richiek
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The message is absolutely sent as it is perceived by those around you. That may be a mis-communication, or not, but people form responses before they are even consciously aware of it be they men or women.
What message is she sending?
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Reading a bit of the thread, though I must confess at this hour (4am here) there is too much for me to know how the argument has evolved all the way to this point. So I'am afraid I cannot said something that has not been said before about the real topic of the thread. However I can comment on these last few posts. I would expect for someone who has deeply followed the issue, has a lot of knowledge about what's going on , and has followed the discussion for more than various pages is already prompted to have an skewed perception of what the average knowledge on the issue from any random newcommer should be or will be. Understanding that people who has simply not gone through the process that you have to understand the issue is more likely the majority, and that the next person really knows much less than half of what you know about it, will reveal many a ill intended posts as mere acts of uninformed posters. As if it was the first page. One doesn't get angry at superfluous post in the first page because one doesn't expect them to have really much information, one would also assume these are people who may have read nothing about it, nor even the OP. Now, thinking that someone who post the same thing after many pages is actually someone who has come to mock you, and has been presented and rejected the argument rather than someone who has just not seen it, will make you get angry at the wrong person.
Whatever is perceived by those who observe her. Rightly or wrongly. It is contextual. The reaction is based on how the dress conforms with societal norms and expectations given the context. People aren't suddenly going to stop processing information because the subject has a penis or a vagina or the attire has or lacks illustrations. In your first paragraph you make the case for the disconnect between the observed and the observer, but you then insist that it is somehow gender exclusive.
But like you said, when a woman chooses to dress a way in which people perceive as provocative, that's them projecting a message onto her clothing. The responsibility is theirs and those perceptions of how women are expected to behave are what's being challenged. Matt's shirt displays artwork in which is a direct result of those attitudes of a woman's objectification, rendered and sewn into fabric.
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I missed this edit. Can you expand on this within the context of a shirt that is clearly symbolic of women's sexual objectification and a woman in which a message must be projected onto her by the observer?
Except it's not. Do people not realize just because you make up a situation in your head, doesn't mean it's true? You, yourself (and possibly others) are creating these situations in which you believe as a result of a shirt that this is somehow true. Anyone can make up any reason and think that somehow the two correlate, when they really don't.
I can make one up now: This shirt is making people believe that comets are made of cotton.
Do you see how nonsensical my statement above sounds? It is on par with yours as well.
It's amazing to see this topic still an issue with nearly 1500 posts. This thread is honestly going to lead no where, and people will just have to agree to disagree.
That is different than what you said. You said
This is false.
With added context based on your clarification: her intended message can just as easily take on meanings she did not necessarily intend, regardless of the presence or absence of socially relevant illustrations (something you can certainly have variation on when striving to dress provocatively, especially on a multi-cultural basis not just 'ours') which is just a type of information to be interpreted along with many other factors to do with the dress. Data is data and the subject is still observed regardless of gender.
What you bolded is not a situation. I don't think you understand what symptomatic means.
The idea that the shirt make many women uncomfortable isn't a thing I made up from whole cloth it's something I learned from listening to women: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139064659&postcount=1407
I seem to be missing something here.
- Matt was unaware of the message his shirt represents; however, his shirt explicitly contains a message.
- A woman may send an unintentional message only because that message is projected onto her from the observer.
Thank you for your concern, but I understood perfectly.
Right, but people will always perceive things differently than others. Doing this would just mean we need to start taking polls and bringing in statistics on what is deemed offensive and what isn't. There is no silver lining, a fix-all solution unfortunately. There will always be two sides to any given idea, topic, theory, what have you - but over a shirt for this to turn into some hot topic issue is ridiculous by any measure. A t-shirt should not, and truly is not indicative of someones views, especially when said person is harassed and belittled for it, not to mention that his work is being overshadowed for something that should be of no consequence and should not be even second guessed. When a t-shirt can somehow cause this type of outrage, we really need to rethink the values on which our societies are based on.
How about you tell me how a t-shirt is somehow indicative of a boys club mentality aka no girls allowed in this field/profession?
Because if a t-shirt somehow affects what profession you want to enter out of all things, I really have nothing more to discuss.
Then how do you explain that post?
A Link to the Past
Banned
Tone police, weeoo, when you say "how a t-shirt is somehow indicative of a boys club mentality", you're implying that a t-shirt can't do that. A t-shirt definitely CAN do that, it's really easy for it to do that. The debate is on whether this shirt did that, and a lot of people feel that it did.
This might help. I think you're approaching this from contextual parity, so to say, you're making a judgement of a lack of parity based on perceived the power dynamics of each situation and subjective 'severity'.
What I'm arguing is not that the two acts are equivalent (they aren't, they are very different on a huge range of metrics), but to say that a woman can dress a certain way have it carry no meaning (while this is not necessarily true for a man?) outside of her intent just isn't true. You chose a very extreme example of dress and said it literally carries no meaning other than the one verbally communicated.
Just because she isn't using socially sensitive illustration or not in a 'male' position of power, her dress absolutely carries meaning beyond the scope of the her own intention.
It's the same reason why some people do black face not thinking it would offend anyone. Or what to you might be fine but to others might come across as scandalous in church regardless of your own perception.
Anyone, man or woman, project meaning onto their own appearance/clothing, it is still then subject to the interpretation of the observers, whoever is in the wrong is after the fact and beside the point.
First of all, editing to respond to latter posts is bad form.
Secondly, that the decision to wear that shirt to a public event in this context was not questioned or came easily is absolutely indicative of the types of gender issues in STEM that have been discussed by many, many people and organizations over the years. A long list of quotes regarding this incident from those in the STEM field was offered earlier.
Anything can imply anything if you want to read into that way. But the fact that so many people read into a shirt in this manner is what's the problem - when it really shouldn't be.
Listen, I understand there are two sides to nearly every argument, view, etc. But when somehow a mentality is spawned from a t-shirt, I think people are reading into something just a bit too much.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Again, you're devaluing the points people are making because it's from a t-shirt, and I see it as extremely silly to suggest that a t-shirt cannot convey a message when virtually everyone in our society, obviously including our scientists, express messages through what we wear.
shanshan310
Member
It was nice of him to apologise. That shirt was embarrassingly tasteless and inappropriate for the situation.
The phrase is "silver bullet".
The aside into polls or whatever is misguided. The goal isn't to reach perfect societal consensus.
His work is not being overshadowed. Any article or discussion about the shirt must also mention the accomplishment; any article about the mission must not mention the shirt. I'm fortunate enough to have friends at NASA, I assure you they spend more time talking about the mission. And everywhere this story pops up, people bring up "well isn't the accomplishment more important" so it's simply not the case that this has overshadowed the science. We can in fact have both conversations.
And of course what people choose to wear could be indicative of their views. I wear public radio pledge drive shirts because I believe in the institution of public service broadcast and I want to express that. In this case, dude expressed something he didn't mean to. That's why he apologized and his apology is why most people who slagged him in the first place have pivoted to the "why didn't anybody at the ESA notice the shirt before air" question any way. In fact a good deal of the initial backlash was directed at the institutions of the ESA and STEM more broadly than specifically this guy.
The aside into polls or whatever is misguided. The goal isn't to reach perfect societal consensus.
His work is not being overshadowed. Any article or discussion about the shirt must also mention the accomplishment; any article about the mission must not mention the shirt. I'm fortunate enough to have friends at NASA, I assure you they spend more time talking about the mission. And everywhere this story pops up, people bring up "well isn't the accomplishment more important" so it's simply not the case that this has overshadowed the science. We can in fact have both conversations.
And of course what people choose to wear could be indicative of their views. I wear public radio pledge drive shirts because I believe in the institution of public service broadcast and I want to express that. In this case, dude expressed something he didn't mean to. That's why he apologized and his apology is why most people who slagged him in the first place have pivoted to the "why didn't anybody at the ESA notice the shirt before air" question any way. In fact a good deal of the initial backlash was directed at the institutions of the ESA and STEM more broadly than specifically this guy.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
awesome post, yrael <3 great to show case that actual women and men in STEM are voicing out their issues with the shirt.
personally, I think Matt didnt mean any harm with the shirt, but it's encouraging to know that he has since realised it may send messages that perpetuate the current unbalanced representation of women in STEM fields.
also to those arguing about equivalency, i think if a prominent woman in a predominantly women held industry had worn a shirt with sexualised men bodies in a televised interview, then, we may have some sort of equivalency. otherwise, women wearing women representations on their shirt does not equal a man wearing one. and vice versa.
There is far too much emphasis on conformity to 'professional standards' in industries where it really means dress in this way when it really means conforming to ridiculous standards that have nothing to do with your abilities or qualities. I think we should be encouraging individuality as long is it does not offend others. Had it simply been a cool shirt without the imagery people would be talking about how awesome he looked (much like that Mohawk Nasa guy from a year ago).
Khaos_Knight
Banned
Ugh I hope this doesn't continue to escalate and turn into another gamergate mess.
"The hive cluster is under attack."
Meh. The vast majority of those quotes are taken from people that were admittedly vocal feminists before this whole thing started, so I see where a lot of people (especially earlier in this thread) are coming from that are kind of sick of "the same ol' group always being offended". The sentiment of the quotes in that list is certainly not the general consensus among scientists or anything... most that I have seen weigh in on this don't even think the shirt is offensive.
I can respect the points being made by both sides though. Another perfect example of it probably being best to just agree to disagree.
But it had that imagery.
The standards aren't that ridiculous. In some jobs you have to wear uniforms, certain colours...etc... We all dress differently at home then we do at work, and that's a good thing, we should have higher standards when we are forced to work with a wide range of people. The fact is, the work place isn't the place for individuality, it's for work. Professionalism isn't a bad thing, it has its place.
How does dressing to a certain standard diminish anything?
Him wearing an appropriate shirt to work wouldnt harm him in anyway, it wouldn't destroy his individuality, it would simply be a reflection of the environment that most work places should encourage. One where a woman can go to work without having to sit behind a guy who decides to wear his sexy women shirt.
Again. If he was working on a strip club this wouldn't be an issue.
Yes it did, just saying that there is actually a lot more range to what is actually appropriate over what most places deem to be so.
Broder Salsa
Banned
Sorry for being a bit off topic, but does anyone knows who sells this shirt? Asking for a friend.
Edit: Oh it was a custom made gift.
Edit: Oh it was a custom made gift.
Cheers YNnNY (do you mind if I shorten your name to this? xD) and Brakke.
Looking at the Twitter feeds and media communications of each of those people, the majority of their focus in the past has been centred on science (not surprisingly). If any have also been outspoken on feminist issues, that simply means that that they've also cared enough to speak up about gender inequality in their fields - which is not really a rebuttal of their concerns. I like this point brought up by Alice Bell: "Pointing [sexism] out is not a distraction to the science. Its part of it. Its time science finally realised that."
This could be said to be an issue in itself in the STEM field; I've unfortunately had my bad experiences with sexism in the past. However, I think the signs are showing that more and more people are recognising that there needs to be more work done to clean up the "image" of tech and make it more encouraging for women and girls. My own experience amongst the scientific crowd I now associate and work with is very positive (and those I know who've spoken up about it have thought the shirt was tasteless and offensive).
Heh, I missed Sarcastic Rover's contribution:
https://twitter.com/SarcasticRover/status/533038018248994816
Looking at the Twitter feeds and media communications of each of those people, the majority of their focus in the past has been centred on science (not surprisingly). If any have also been outspoken on feminist issues, that simply means that that they've also cared enough to speak up about gender inequality in their fields - which is not really a rebuttal of their concerns. I like this point brought up by Alice Bell: "Pointing [sexism] out is not a distraction to the science. Its part of it. Its time science finally realised that."
This could be said to be an issue in itself in the STEM field; I've unfortunately had my bad experiences with sexism in the past. However, I think the signs are showing that more and more people are recognising that there needs to be more work done to clean up the "image" of tech and make it more encouraging for women and girls. My own experience amongst the scientific crowd I now associate and work with is very positive (and those I know who've spoken up about it have thought the shirt was tasteless and offensive).
Heh, I missed Sarcastic Rover's contribution:
https://twitter.com/SarcasticRover/status/533038018248994816
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
Your comments are always very well thought out and researched <3
Also, Sarcastic Rover XD
And, no, I dont mind at all about shortening my nick to ynnny
Personally I think your constant angry personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with you are pretty tiring.
You're not winning anyone to your side by being such a twat.
Yes. Are you really about to compare apologizing to being raped?
I'm sorry I'm late in replying to this, but thank you very much. If I manage to gain access to the full article, I'll let you know.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
Good to know that I can call you an asshole on a public forum, belittle you and your achievements, and have condescending articles written about you for any infraction you may make going forward. You know, even if it's something most people would agree that you should be called out for, but maybe not at a level where it makes international headlines, I'm happy that you're accepting that I go from normal to pants shittingly angry at any slight I encounter.
And yet apparently it's the people who took issue with the shirt who are being melodramatic.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
Melodramatic? Those examples I posted actually happened. I suppose I could double down and say that this whole situation is "three steps back for humankind", but let's be reasonable about our outrage here.
I'm talking about ignoring the context of what I'm saying he deserved to make a melodramatic point about it. And just as I do not share the same argument with everybody in this thread who thinks he messed up, not everyone who ever took issue with it is a single raving individual.
You have examples of people going pants shittingly angry at any slight they encounter and criticism for any infraction going forward after an apology?
What you quoted isn't a personal attack, but what you typed underneath it certainly is.
Right. Someone does not get raped because they wore a particular outfit. Someone does get criticized for their choice in clothing because they chose to wore a particular article of clothing. I don't know why this needs to be explained.
Arjen
Member
Could this guy have known it would cause such a shitstorm? Not everyone is aware of the cesspool that is Tumbler
That he wasn't aware of what the shirt could represent is precisely the issue we're discussing.
Arjen
Member
Discussing the underlying issue is fine, singeling out this one guy is not. It's disgusting.
His decision and the lack of any resistance amongst his colleagues to him wearing it is a symptom of the underlying issue. That he isn't a bad guy is vitally important and it all needs to be discussed. He shouldn't be harassed or made into a villain because he isn't one, and that truth is fundamental to the point we're making. The apology was sincere and appropriate and hopefully it and discussions like these lead to more awareness.
JJDinomite
Banned
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