GTP_Daverytimes
Member
It truly is, an amazing accomplishment is reduced to this rubbish.
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'Shirtstorm' Leads To Apology From European Space Scientist
- Thread starter richiek
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It truly is, an amazing accomplishment is reduced to this rubbish.
Dice//
Banned
Oh for goodness sakes, IS NO ONE READING THE THREAD???
The talk has gone BEYOND shirt-talk into gender equality issues especially in a field with and underrepresenation of women. Most of the gaffers here like and support Matt Taylor, we know he apologized and like that too and, like many GAF topics, have moved from "the news" into a debate about other matters regarding the same topic.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139025320&postcount=1136
Yeah I don't understand.
The worst of this is people calling "feminism is shit" [once again] because of the whiney few rather than discuss the matter in a polite and fair way. We've also come full circle to saying the shirt is 'tacky' to coddling the situation and being like "you go, sir, it looks fantastic!". I also fail to understand how people cannot seem to fathom being in someone else's shoes for this and that the statement made by such apparel or imagery can not possible garner ANY commentary. It's...just not like that.
As I said to MutFox and now say to you: If you care about the Rosetta mission and think that this thread has seen too much activity then post in the designated Rosetta thread (which neither of you have done) and not here.
And as Dice// stated the discussion in this thread has mostly moved on from the shirt incident itself.
Disclaimer: I happen to have the most posts in the Rosetta Mission thread. I think I made one comment in there about the shirt.
EDIT: That sounded more douchey than intended. I just wanted to add to the idea that you can contribute to both the discussion of the Rosetta mission and the shirt.
Generally, this isn't a group of concerned parents wanting to engage in a book burning because of some naughty words. It's people identifying that hey, maybe that shirt could reflect poorly in the larger picture of making a male-dominated field more female friendly.
EDIT: That sounded more douchey than intended. I just wanted to add to the idea that you can contribute to both the discussion of the Rosetta mission and the shirt.
Maybe your statement means you're not referring to these people, but I imagine there are quite a few folks who find the shirt and the situation in which it was worn to be problematic, but not offensive.
Generally, this isn't a group of concerned parents wanting to engage in a book burning because of some naughty words. It's people identifying that hey, maybe that shirt could reflect poorly in the larger picture of making a male-dominated field more female friendly.
Dice//
Banned
I assure you, we haven't used 30 pages to take a piss on one man's questionable fashion choice.
homegrowndub
Banned
This message may fall on deaf ears. It may not have a lot to do with the topic at hand. I just felt like inputting my opinion. I don't think anyone is against equality, but if you keep crying wolf, eventually people will start looking at the movement of feminist in a bad light. I don't post on here much, though I do read a lot. From what I gather, it seems a majority need a cause to get behind to be a part of something. Whatever happened to individuality? Anyways, I'm pretty sure I'll be banned for not viweing things as others. The article below I feel sums up the disdain people are starting to feel...... I'm sure some slick comments will come forth to refute me and the article. But take a step back and realize you aren't helping the cause. You're harming it.
www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/11/15/shirt-comet-girls-feminism-column/19083607/?showmenu=true
I don't know if I did this right. I'm not that internet savy, but you'll get the gist.
www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/11/15/shirt-comet-girls-feminism-column/19083607/?showmenu=true
I don't know if I did this right. I'm not that internet savy, but you'll get the gist.
It really is. And the discussion of women's marginalization in STEM is an intriguing issue that NEEDS to be discussed.
But it really shouldn't be attached to shirt storm. That really does the issue a major disservice.
Boom Boom Pow
Banned
it has to start earlier for women in STEM i think. i mean, a good way to look at it is how mnay women are actually applying to STEM majors when they first join college?
if they're not even applying to college with that major, there's not much you can do to change that
if they're not even applying to college with that major, there's not much you can do to change that
Battersea Power Station
Member
Here's another scenario: women don't view STEM jobs as boys' clubs and they enter the space research field at a high rate and scientific research into warp drive is accelerated, allowing us to travel to other stars within the next century.
Ending systemic discrimination is not a small deal. It can and will define the future of humanity.
Kano on the Phone
Member
How do you feel that addressing an issue that legitimately affects women hurts feminism? You don't really elaborate in your folksy, aw shucks statement of victimhood, you're just posting a link to someone else's (presumably) opinion.
Both you and that article makes leaps in logic and uses generalisations that aren't helpful. The criticism that spawned the controversy didn't come from people who identified as feminists first and foremost and base their life around that ideology. It came from people with a genuine interest in the Rosetta mission who felt that the shirt that Matt Taylor wore promoted stereotypes that they find harmful. No one is crying wolf in this instance, you may not agree with how they perceive the situation but it is a situation that is real.
And honestly that is a vile article by a libertarian who seem to have an axe to grind with feminists rather than someone who cares about the Rosetta mission or Matt Taylor. "Whatever feminists say, their true priorities are revealed in what they do, and what they do is, mostly, man-bashing and special pleading." This statement is not compatible with reality, not backed up with any facts or research and I won't dignify the article with any more attention.
Okay so I thought I would address the "why is this thread so long" complaint some have brought forth.
I think that the reason as to why this spawns a lot of discussion is that the shirt fits really well into two differing larger narratives, one where the shirt is a symbol of the casual sexism within STEM and one where there exist an "outrage culture" that overreach. And if proponents of either narrative neglect or choose to ignore the existence of the other narrative they can argue ad infinitum since any argument that the opponent present isn't compatible with their narrative and therefore doesn't carry any weight. Very interestingly having this singular narrative creates a need to mould real life events so that they fit that narrative which is why you can see people not accepting Matt Taylor's (in my opinion really nice and heartfelt) apology where he refers to wearing the shirt as "a mistake" since that acknowledges the other narrative. Instead Matt's voice gets dismissed in favour of "defending" him against the perceived mob of outraged people, i.e. he didn't mean what he said and he was forced to do this. As a note to that particular example: There exist evidence that suggests he meant what he said, and there exist none for him just being forced to apologise.
The fact that the internet in general and, at the moment, the geekier side of it in particular is not very articulate and civil when it is discussing issues of gender and minorities that evokes a lot of bile which further creates more discussion albeit discussion of a distinctly lesser quality. To expand on the bit about "the geekier side of it in particular"; It has been suggested that the ongoing gamergate mess is a new front in "the culture wars" (calling it a war is absolutely ridiculous), this time centring around geek culture or to be more precise gaming. This also has a larger narrative to feed and being part of geek culture makes it likely that you're interested in the Rosetta mission. Seeing as that movement has a lot of people's blood running, when an opportunity presented itself the mess was quite ready to spill over and infect the discussion about the shirt. It is hardly surprising that several proponents of gamergate are arguing against the initial criticism to further their agenda, which yet again creates more discussion even if it doesn't have much bearing on what actually was being said.
Add all this to the fact that contentious threads usually gets more posts than more straightforward ones, it shouldn't be surprising (or considered proof of the fall of mankind) that this thread accumulated more posts than the one about the Rosetta mission. Sorry about the double post but I felt that this needed to be a separate entity.
I think that the reason as to why this spawns a lot of discussion is that the shirt fits really well into two differing larger narratives, one where the shirt is a symbol of the casual sexism within STEM and one where there exist an "outrage culture" that overreach. And if proponents of either narrative neglect or choose to ignore the existence of the other narrative they can argue ad infinitum since any argument that the opponent present isn't compatible with their narrative and therefore doesn't carry any weight. Very interestingly having this singular narrative creates a need to mould real life events so that they fit that narrative which is why you can see people not accepting Matt Taylor's (in my opinion really nice and heartfelt) apology where he refers to wearing the shirt as "a mistake" since that acknowledges the other narrative. Instead Matt's voice gets dismissed in favour of "defending" him against the perceived mob of outraged people, i.e. he didn't mean what he said and he was forced to do this. As a note to that particular example: There exist evidence that suggests he meant what he said, and there exist none for him just being forced to apologise.
The fact that the internet in general and, at the moment, the geekier side of it in particular is not very articulate and civil when it is discussing issues of gender and minorities that evokes a lot of bile which further creates more discussion albeit discussion of a distinctly lesser quality. To expand on the bit about "the geekier side of it in particular"; It has been suggested that the ongoing gamergate mess is a new front in "the culture wars" (calling it a war is absolutely ridiculous), this time centring around geek culture or to be more precise gaming. This also has a larger narrative to feed and being part of geek culture makes it likely that you're interested in the Rosetta mission. Seeing as that movement has a lot of people's blood running, when an opportunity presented itself the mess was quite ready to spill over and infect the discussion about the shirt. It is hardly surprising that several proponents of gamergate are arguing against the initial criticism to further their agenda, which yet again creates more discussion even if it doesn't have much bearing on what actually was being said.
Add all this to the fact that contentious threads usually gets more posts than more straightforward ones, it shouldn't be surprising (or considered proof of the fall of mankind) that this thread accumulated more posts than the one about the Rosetta mission. Sorry about the double post but I felt that this needed to be a separate entity.
GameGuru59
Banned
I think the main problem I have with this whole "shirtstorm" thing is that it feels as though I (as a man) am losing the freedom to wear what I want to work to benefit the sensibilities of women. Frankly, I don't own any shirts of the type that the man in question owns, and I doubt I would buy one. It looks tacky. But I do have a problem with the notion that the only way to solve the problem of the lack of women in STEM fields is to get men to surrender things. I feel you should have more freedom to wear what you want to work, not less, and this request for men to stop wearing slightly offensive shirts feels as though we are returning to the stuffy mid 20th century era when the only possible professional attire was a dess-shirt and tie.
In short, in my opinion the percieved benefit of having non provactive shirts does not outweigh the cost of being able to express yourself at work. Now, if someone were just being overtly offensive (perhaps having posters of hentai or some such posted all over their cubicle) that would be another matter. But a single shirt on the date of a major success for your organization does not strike me as overtly offensive. There's a gradient here, and I beleive we can allow professionals a broad ability to express themselves at work, without encroaching too much on the ability to be provacative.
In short, in my opinion the percieved benefit of having non provactive shirts does not outweigh the cost of being able to express yourself at work. Now, if someone were just being overtly offensive (perhaps having posters of hentai or some such posted all over their cubicle) that would be another matter. But a single shirt on the date of a major success for your organization does not strike me as overtly offensive. There's a gradient here, and I beleive we can allow professionals a broad ability to express themselves at work, without encroaching too much on the ability to be provacative.
Kano on the Phone
Member
Unless you work for yourself, you would get sent home for wearing that shirt to work anyway. You aren't losing anything. This imaginary victimhood because one guy had to apologize is astounding. Nor did anyone say that the only way to get more women into STEM was for men to have to surrender things. You invented two strawmen there.
Who is saying this?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
People are still fighting the feminists they've thought up in their mind instead of actually reading what people in the thread are saying.
alfredofroylan
Member
It's a 33 pages thread, most people only read the first page. It'll be useful to add a notice in the first post to clarify things.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Then it just makes it more baffling why people keep dropping by to say we're saying things we're not.
MonkeyKing
Member
The context in which the issue was brought up. In this case, an individual was harrassed and humiliated until he offered a tearful apology. His crime was wearing a shirt, which some people found offensive, and other people didn't notice at all because their attention was on the incredible feat of science this man was a part of.
Now that his scalp has been claimed, and his apology judged sincere, the offended justify derailing the focus of attention to their issue as "raising awareness", which sounds like a euphemism for "picking a fight". Could the same legitimate issues have been addressed without humiliating a person for their inadvertent error?
Its not unreasonable to think that people might find this situation unfair, that this scientist was pounced on for reasons that are tangential to the reason we know who he is in the first place. The context has produced more heat than light. This thread, I think is evidence of that.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It also seems clear to me that this shirt does not represent men, nor of men in tech, nor of a masculine centered workplace that excludes females.
It's so clearly the style of a unique individual.... and in my ideal world people are able to express themselves in a variety of ways.
I still think this is a great opportunity to talk about women in STEM. But if we're talking about acceptable dress codes in particular, this is silly. You'll get HR to be more conservative about dress codes in science workplaces, and that's it. This doesn't make a workplace any more welcoming to women.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139064659&postcount=1407
Have you read this post? That's what people are actually saying.
Beyond that post, a woman on Twitter called him an asshole. The Verge headline says they don't care about the comet excuse as a deflection from the shirt. So what people in this thread or of note out in the world have claimed his scalp or wanted to do that?
GameGuru59
Banned
The ESA guy wasn't sent home, and if you read my post I said that people should have more freedom to wear what they want to work. The entire premise was that I desire to see an expansion of casual dress in the workplace. People are more productive when they are more comfortable. Finally, when you're banned from doing something, the freedom that you had to do the aforementioned something is surrendered. You have less rights than you had in the previous condition.
No one is saying it explicity, but that is how I'lve chosen to frame it.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Wild.
GameGuru59
Banned
And you've framed the issue as you have chosen to. Is it surprising that people from different perspectives see this differently?
Nobody is even close to hinting at framing it that way, except you.
Can you highlight where anybody hints that "the only way to solve the problem of the lack of women in STEM fields is to get men to surrender things"?
I've added a summary of the thread and some quotes from those in STEM in the OP.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
My position comes from paying attention to the people who are involved and talking about it, not by telling others how it is.
Ugh. I missed the scalp claiming. Did we at least get it on video?
speculawyer
Member
Is this a thread of people like me just coming in to post "How can this discussion about a shirt still be going on?"
Dice//
Banned
Thank you!
EDIT: Oh wow, I'm in there too. Guess it pays off tracking the topic for this long... :S
Is this a thread of people like me just coming in to post "How can this discussion about a shirt still be going on?"
The OP has been updated for a more comprehensive look into the issue; yes, even explaining why a shirt sometimes isn't just "a shirt" (or rather, what can be read between the lines of this issue).
GameGuru59
Banned
I never said it was the "only way" people were suggesting but... this entire thread has been centered on the idea that shirts that may or may not be offensive to women help to create a work climate in the STEM professions that discourages them from participating in those professions. Banning the freedom to wear these types of shirts would be a form of surrender to those who desire a more "welcoming" atmosphere for women in STEM fields. I do not think this trade off is balanced, nor effective. The ends do not justify the means, and I doubt the means would necessarily result in the end.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Any idea of a "ban" is only being tossed around by you.
GameGuru59
Banned
As does mine. I wish I could wear casual clothing to work, and want the same for others. Your (or at least other posters') state of being offended by this shirt impedes the fruition of that desire. I think it would be sad if the next time we saw the ESA doing something that they were all dressed in polos like they do at NASA (though NASA's polos are better than their old habit of wearing a dess-shirt and tie everyday).
Then how do you (or other posters) plan to enforce your sentiment that such shirts are offensive and ill-suited to the workplace?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Uhm...raising our concerns about them in efforts to persuade or convince people that they should be more thoughtful in their attire? Why does this have to be "enforcement"?
Dice//
Banned
Golly, it sounds like you think all novelty t-shirts or fan tees or anything that isn't one-tone polo shirt are going to become illegal and punishable by Twitter harassment.
Imagine if he wore a Doctor Who t-shirt, the world (or Whovians) would have probably applauded it. But he didn't; he chose something for public television for a major event that (to some) is seen at odds with the current scientific environment of female professionals in a "boys club".
It sucks, but sometimes things you wear might make an unintended statement about a sensitive issue; in which case it's smart to choose what you wear to match that. I doubt you'd make a vaguely-racist-but-funny black joke to black people (I know, bad example); so why stir the pot by showboating apparel that misrepresents women on televised programming where men and women will be watching??
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
No one's taking this to 1984 but you, bro. I'd hope you can figure out how society can manage to do things without having to ban or enforce things.
You say "as does mine" at the start, implying you agree with me that you are listening to others instead of telling them how they feel. Then you follow this by immediately telling me and other posters we've said something we've never said and feeling things we haven't said we're feeling. Please think about this.
GameGuru59
Banned
The result in the end would be enforcement. The natrual result of these concerns being raised would be enforcement within various STEM workplaces.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
If by enforcement you mean "everyone is on the same page about what is appropriate" then yeah, but at that point you're just using "enforcement" to imply something more sinister then what's going on
I appreciate the sentiment, and agree with it for the most part.
But I also want to note that the acceleration of technology is moving so fast that additional (wo)man-power in these fields in a couple decades is... not going to really affect that much change. Especially when rising nations like China and India aren't as afflicted with this gender disparity issue (india especially so).
But more to the point... iterative self improving AI is coming quickly (faster than most suspect), and it's going to be the major force pushing technology development up the curve once its put into action.
The greatest effect of empowering women in STEM - is just so that they can as a group better cope with a rapidly advancing technology future. But even that affect is marginal imo; the changes will be so rapid and breathtaking (potentially devastating) that affinity for STEM subjects won't really do much to prepare. For that... you'd need a much more direct study of futurology...
GameGuru59
Banned
Employers do not have the ability to set the attire for workplaces? That's enforcement. Once "everyone is on the same page about what is appropriate," enfocement (implicit or explicit) natrually follows. The end result of expressing these concerns will be enforcement, very likely starting with the ESA. When people begin to complain about things, there are results for those complaints. I disagree with the results your side is seeking (or at least, will affect) upon the workplace.
Sure, but societal concensus tends to result in enforcement in the direction of that concensus.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Do you have any examples of companies updating their policies as a direct result of this? Otherwise I don't understand why you keep taking this to a dystopian, militaristic future as an inevitability.
homegrowndub
Banned
Victimhood, really? And my aw, schucks statement was me trying to be polite. Firstly, that so called victim hood is being played very well by this new wave of feminist. I'm not saying that issues do not exist, they do. It just seems like every other week outrage explodes about......... The most inconsequential things. For fuck sake, it's a shirt! A tacky one at that.
In regards to the article, it was an opinion peace. I stumbled up on it and read it. I didn't think that it was in anyway brushing off the what feminist are fighting for. I feel it was more of, "hey, look at this great feat that humankind has achieved. Ten years of work to get here" but instead of that we have to hear about the choice of shirt some dude made. It reminds me of that "hey look at me! Im doing shit too" attitude.
This current movement is starting to feel manufactured in my opinion. And I'm not downplaying the real issues. I'm saying that if a shirt (and the implied notion that it is keeping women from the sciences and if you can show statistics proving this and not a tweet) can cause so much outrage, then whats next? It sounds like reaching for anything and hoping that shit sticks to the wall.
GameGuru59
Banned
Its not dystopian, it would just result in a poliferation of an idea that I disagree with. And as I said, if the ESA changes its dress code, that would be the prime example.
IDKAboutThat
Member
What a terrible shirt. And I don't know about you, but I wouldn't attack the guy personally over this in any way other than to say his shirt sucks. You don't need a specific target to talk about sexism in scientific circles. It's just a thing that happens and shouldn't.
BrokenEchelon
Banned
Read the updated OP. My opinion is that it's still fucking idiotic that this is an "issue" or a controversy. This is people trying to pin the tail on any part of the big bad sexism/misoginy donkey's ass just so that they can have something to moan and complain about.
Take all of that energy and fervor for diversity and apply it to something fucking meaningful instead of the internet's latest flavor of the week outrage topic on why the evil white heterosexual man is keeping you down because of a fucking Yu-Gi-Oh-convention-tier shirt.
Take all of that energy and fervor for diversity and apply it to something fucking meaningful instead of the internet's latest flavor of the week outrage topic on why the evil white heterosexual man is keeping you down because of a fucking Yu-Gi-Oh-convention-tier shirt.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
Which is factually not true, or this wouldn't have been an issue, wouldn't have warranted an apology, and we wouldn't have had this thread in the first place
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Yes, you are. You don't get to decide for everyone what's a real issue, especially if you aren't directly involved.
wow but how did you get so aloof and cool internet cool dude tell me how i can learn to be so cool and aloof a not care about stuff
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