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'Shirtstorm' Leads To Apology From European Space Scientist
- Thread starter richiek
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Which is why you have posted in the thread about the Rosetta and avoided this thread, thus keeping both this thread cleaner and making NeoGAF a less sad place.
Arjen
Member
If you want to create awareness, do an article about the women who were part of this team who made this achievement possible. These hate campaigns are counterproductive.
Totally agree. This is ridiculous.
Could he have known? Sure. I would have known, and I wouldn't have even considered Tumblr in making that observation. I honestly find it odd that you're making the argument, "But how could he have known that anyone would object to his shirt covered with half-naked women?" It's not much of a leap to make.
If people had been arguing that what the ESA accomplished was not important, that thread would have been much longer than this one. It was an extremely successful thread for one that had so much consensus. It is usually the contentious threads that are lengthy on OT, after all.
You've misunderstood him, I think. By "awareness" KHarvey means, narrowly, awareness of the inappropriateness of that shirt, and more broadly awareness of the ways that women can be driven away and excluded from pursuing careers in STEM fields. Yes, we should also celebrate the women who are successful in spite of those barriers, but unless we also actually confront those barriers they'll continue to perpetuate themselves ad infinitum, becoming so normalized that people won't even notice how they are exclusionary.
How about we do an article about the women on the team and point out the subtle signs of sexism in the STEM fields? The former is important but making sure people recognize how embedded in our behavior these things are is almost certainly more important. People read articles about women in the sciences and sometimes think, well, there's no problem with how women are treated so what does this matter? Identify the problem by discussing and recognizing the symptoms.
Arjen
Member
Sure scare them away even more by pointing out all those things. Then you get women who were thinking about a career in science mmm maybe I shouldn't do that. If more women will go into science the culture will change, and you need positivity to draw them in, nit negativity to scare them away.
edit: quoting Yrael's great post messed it up quite a bit, please do read it by clicking this
Wearing a shirt that promotes negative stereotypes is negativity that keeps women away from these fields, pointing out the negative is not negativity that keeps women out of these fields.
jakonovski
Member
I don't like these editorialized narratives popping up, because once again there's a million way this could've gone, and he did end up taking the shirt off on the same day. Just because there wasn't a shirt patrol on duty that saw the gaffe coming before it happened, doesn't mean there was or wasn't any resistance to it.
Gentleman Jack
Member
The post count is artificially inflated by the drive-by meta-whining: 'who cares? just a shirt drama click bait CAPITALIZED WORD.'
By the time a woman has enrolled in a STEM degree and graduated, she is well aware of the culture. Many never enroll because it's well known, or enroll and drop out or graduate and get a career tangentially related to her degree. And if the path to gender equality in STEM was to ignore the problem we would already have it. Your argument is counter to reality.
No one in any position of authority told him not to. Success in spreading awareness about the issue could in part be measured by whether or not that had occurred.
Why should anyone in a position of authority tell him not to wear the shirt? Is there a dress code where he works? If there isn't why should they tell him not to wear it?
jakonovski
Member
You can measure it statistically. Individual cases depend on the real actions of the human beings involved. Of which we don't know much in this case.
The reason is literally the sole subject of the entire exchange you just quoted a portion of. Please read.
You can measure it statistically, if you define it in a way that can be quantified like that. And you can also measure it by the willingness of people to recognize the importance of the issue. It's not mutually exclusive and you have no reason to argue it is.
I got what the reason is but what responsibility in a work place environment does management have in telling a subordinate to wear or not wear a shirt when there seems to be no dress code. Not every one believes that the shirt he is wearing is some sort of symbol of boy's club mentality. Some people just think at first glance that it's a tacky shirt.
I too wonder about this hypothetical scenario that isn't really relevant to the discussion. Why are you bringing this up?
Please look at my post above and read the post I linked in it. Just because you don't see an issue with the shirt doesn't mean that there isn't an issue.
The people in places of authority have a responsibility to ensure the comfort of their employees. They should also, in a media setting, be aware of the message portrayed by the actions of their employees.
You can't just say, well I saw the reason you gave but I don't agree so it doesn't exist as the reason I'm asking for. Again this is arguing in bad faith.
jakonovski
Member
What are you even talking about? At the end of the day you're drawing conclusions without sufficient information.
I also question why people ostensibly about empathy are so unable to get into the shoes of an administrator in charge of a scientific project (or otherwise). Issuing preventive guidance on scientist wardrobe in case of bad interview attire is something that is extremely easy to overlook. Someone's lack of common sense is usually only found out after an incident.
Maybe it would be more productive to look at the response to this, instead of using glasses of 20-20 hindsight?
Because I wonder what would have happend. If we knew and we spread the word about it we could prevent another outrage. So sorry if I offended you with my curiosity.
The world which those of us on this side of the fence want to see is one in which that shirt is immediately identified as being problematic by anyone, not just management concerned about image. It should obviously be a bad choice. Reasons for not saying anything, like everyone was busy or it wasn't obvious or whatever should have not stood in the way. That's part of the definition of success here.
"Just asking questions."
Disingenuous and lame.
Dude, I've read your posts in this thread are you just concern trolling now?
But I'll indulge you: If he had tattoos like the ones you describe and he didn't cover them up, then yes a similar outcry would ensue. It is a situation that would be a close analogue to the one that played out. But he, as far as I am aware, doesn't and discussing hypothetical scenarios and how they would've played out isn't constructive.
Don't be so hard to yourself man.
Seriously, you will never win anything with the way you're discussing. The opposite will happen and you will forever wonder why no one understands you. But hey, go on fighting for tolerance and empathy by being a aggressive, rude, insulting dick. Have a nice day.
Did it physically hurt you giving me an normal anwser? Did I accuse you of anything, did I attack you? Must be KHarvey16 influence, you didn't start like that in this thread.
You're the second poster to claim I'm attacking people and following it up with an actual personal attack. I'm sorry that your ridiculous tactics being called out makes you so upset. Maybe you shouldn't engage in textbook trolling nonsense?
jakonovski
Member
There is a wide gap between the ideal and what reality is, even if the organisation in question has good people in key places. Prepare for a lot of disappointing revelations on organisational inertia and allocation of resources during your career.
"When things get tough, give up."
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
I watched a few of his interviews. Seems like a genuine guy who felt the criticisms he was receiving. He's a little eccentric but that's it.
People will get offended over fucking anything these days.
People will get offended over fucking anything these days.
The Cowboy
Member
Really?, is there any need for this type of crap at all?.
Just because you may not like his shirt (or don't like that he wore it) and just because some find offensive in it, it does not make him an asshole.
Edit.
Never mind, i get it now.
I'm don't like going for your bait, but I won't just let that slip by. Since your first post you where you fake excessive outrage you have contributed nothing of value to this thread and are just trying to rile people by increasingly ridiculous posts. Please stop doing this.
He is trolling, he has been saying stuff like that since his first post in this thread.
"I demand that you treat me with kindness and respect, even if I'm engaging in willful ignorance and bad faith argumentative techniques and not really listening to a word you say. You will never convince me to listen to you unless you fawn at my feet (but even then I probably still won't actually care)."
-The Hegemony
The Cowboy
Member
Ahh right, i get you now (didn't realise you used the word as a reference to what others have said) - sorry matey.
jakonovski
Member
You're clearly young and idealistic, just like I was once (man I've wanted to say that for a while now!). All I'm asking for, don't automatically assume that there's something wrong with the individuals involved.
One person on Twitter called him an asshole. Interesting enough to be relevant?
That's a nice quote. I give you just one thing to think about. Maybe I'm really not that smart, maybe you guys truly are way smarter and maybe because of that I truly was wondering what would have happen if he had half naked women tattooed on him. But that's obviously not possible right? I was obviously just trying to rile you guys up. It obviously worked too.
She's not just one person.
I never suggested and in fact explicitly stated that the individuals are not bad people. That they aren't bad people is why discussing this is so important. It doesn't require an evil or stupid individual to perpetuate this.
Evil_Silver
Banned
Politics and science must always be separate. Who the fuck cares what he is wearing? It feels like people are finding reasons to be offended so that they can voice their useless opinions.
jakonovski
Member
I used the word "wrong" for a reason. Things just don't have a 100% success rate, even if the entire organisation consists of people thinking exactly like you. This is why it pays to examine individual cases.
Btw, why are you so offended? Because people dared to post useless, as in not agreing with you, opinions?
You'll notice I didn't name you specifically, although yes, I did quote only you. The point is you engaged in a defensive rhetorical technique that is commonly used by dominant groups. It's an attempt to dismiss an argument that you find uncomfortable by misconstruing the people who are presenting it as vicious attackers.
Evil_Silver
Banned
Btw, why are you so offended? Because people dared to post useless, as in not agreing with you, opinions?
Fail on that image thing. I cannot even comprehend this post.
If the culture changes and identification and recognition of the problem here becomes the norm instead of the exception, it will then be a problem with the individual.
jakonovski
Member
You sure are tenacious and on-message, I'll give you that.
Beatings will continue until morale improves!
Don't be the tone police.
Read again
It seems like you are deeply offended by other opinions posted here, which you deem useless. My suspicion is that you consider them useless, because they are not in agreement of yours.
Well ok. My point is that I didn't try to engage in anything. I had a genuine question and got attacked for it. Not that this would really offend me or anything so yeah, whatever.
This is a post I made giving some background info on women in STEM, why scientists and their behaviour when they are in the spotlight matter and dispelling some common arguments.
This is a post that Yrael made giving some public perspectives from people in the fields of astrophysics and science.
Please read these. And I would like to know precisely why politics and science must always be desperate, isn't political decisions based on scientific data something do be desired?
I need someone to explain me this one to me.
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