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[jarrod]

Brought this up in another thread, but no one seems to be able give a good counter argument. Anyway...

The original reasoning behind making Metroid 3D 1st person was that it was needed for targeting, combat being primairily long range. But since lock-on targeting was included the game could still be reasonably well done from a 3rd person perspective (as targeting" is minimal to begin with) while melee combat preserved (screw attack, dash attack, etc) and it'd make platforming much more natural. If NCL/Retro demanded a move to first person perspective why keep relying on lock-on? Why essentially make a 1st person game with 3rd person controls? Why not go for 3rd person and be truer to the franchise and expand the jumping/platforming elements?

 

[MaddenNFL64]

No.

Now go about your business folks.

 

[Mama Smurf]

I hate you for that. Go back to your lists.

HATE!

 

[Grizzlyjin]

Yes, I would have enjoyed it much more. Not a bad game, but I prefer 3rd person.

 

[shibbs]

1st person worked fine for me now that i played the game. If the first game was 3rd person i might have said the same.
I think it would have worked out either way.

 

[suaveric]

I thought Nintendo said that they did try it in 3rd person, but the camera wasn't working that well in such tight spaces. So from there they moved it to first person.

 

[jarrod]

How about this, had Prime been 3rd person, could it have broken a million it's first year?

 

[Mama Smurf]

Despite it being such a shit counter argument, here's what I said in the other thread:

"I don't understand the desire to move back to 3rd person now personally. Before the game came out I could, everyone thought the jumping was going to be screwed up, but it worked perfectly.

I prefer 1st person now I know the jumping is so good. It immerses me more, and I love things like visors and the effects the environment has on it. I don't think platforming would be made any better in 3rd person, it worked amazingly well in Prime. The screw attack is back for Echoes so I don't see how that can be a complaint, so really there's only dash attack missing. So I guess it's up to the individual to decide whether they prefer the immersion of first person or want the dash attack back (not that I think that'd work particularly well even in 3rd person when in 3D)."

 

[Teddman]

In short, YES.

At least, there should have been that option. A 2.5D game would have been a good alternative too.

Not that I hated Prime, but playing Metroid Zero Mission after it was like a breath of fresh spring air with a light scent of roses and birds chirping.

 

[jarrod]

I thought Nintendo said that they did try it in 3rd person, but the camera wasn't working that well in such tight spaces. So from there they moved it to first person.

Camera issues seem like a cop out, considering ball mode worked pretty well in 3rd person. Maybe it would've taken more effort, but there'd have been other pay-offs like increased platforming and a happy Dragona.

 

[akascream]

With good enough design, I guess. I think the first person solution solved all the 3D drawbacks though, and it looks like they managed to implement wall jumps and the screw attack afterall.

 

[jarrod]

Despite it being such a shit counter argument, here's what I said in the other thread:

here's my resonse from the other thread (sorry about the confusion)...

"I made a new topic cbake, sorry I missed your response.

The platforming in Prime was pretty watered down in most places though... there wasn't nearly the amount of vertical travel than there has been in the 2D games. A move to 3rd person would've allowed for more precise platforming to be implemented, no way around that."

 

[Culex]

It wouldn't have felt as immersive if it were in 3rd person. Yuck, leave it the way it is, please.

 

[6.8]

It would've worked just as well. But then again, the fact that they played around with the visor a bit in terms of presentation made the experience much more immersive. So gameplay-wise, yeah, experience-wise, no.

 

[Teddman]

Before the game came out I could, everyone thought the jumping was going to be screwed up, but it worked perfectly. I prefer 1st person now I know the jumping is so good... I don't think platforming would be made any better in 3rd person, it worked amazingly well in Prime.

Jumping worked perhaps better than expected, but way short of "amazingly well." Examples include the ascent to the final boss's chambers, where avoiding the plagues of Metroid would undoubtedly have worked better in 3rd person, as well as the lack of a screw attack or space jump, both casualties of the 1st person viewpoint (which hurt backtracking and made it more tedious without them).

The screw attack is back for Echoes so I don't see how that can be a complaint

It remains to be seen how well screw attack is implemented in a 1st person view.

 

[tedtropy]

It wouldn't have felt as immersive if it were in 3rd person. Yuck, leave it the way it is, please.

Exactly. The in-visor perspective of the game was a big part of the immersion process. You really felt like you were inside the suit and it made the world feel that much more epic. I think Retro choose wisely in having the game primarily first-person, and third-person for the morph balls moments.

 

[Mama Smurf]

here's my resonse from the other thread (sorry about the confusion)...

"I made a new topic cbake, sorry I missed your response.

The platforming in Prime was pretty watered down in most places though... there wasn't nearly the amount of vertical travel than there has been in the 2D games. A move to 3rd person would've allowed for more precise platforming to be implemented, no way around that."

I don't think we can blame the lack of vertical platforming on it being first person. There's absolutely no reason we couldn't have done the same long vertical tunnels in first person and third person. I think it was simply a design choice, perhaps because it'd make the levels ridiculously big in 3D or something.

I distinctly remember a few areas with a lot of vertical platforming though (I just couldn't specifically tell you where, one was in the Chozo Ruins I think) and it worked fine, they just didn't use it as much as they could have.

Who's cbake?

 

[akascream]

It just seems that 3rd person would be akward in comparison to the first person view. I'd rather they made a kick ass 2D metroid on GCN than try a 3rd person variation in 3D.

 

[jarrod]

So is Prime more immersive than Super Metroid? Should Nintendo be putting presentation ahead of game design/mechanics? Why not give Prime normal fps controls?

We got a "realistic" Zelda thanks to the backlash... would everyone turn their noses up at Echoes if it had been 3rd person?

 

[Teddman]

Exactly. The in-visor perspective of the game was a big part of the immersion process. You really felt like you were inside the suit and it made the world feel that much more epic. I think Retro choose wisely in having the game primarily first-person, and third-person for the morph balls moments.

I will sacrifice the immersiveness of the in-visor perspective every time for pinpoint platforming, more dynamic and extensive platforming, better jump control, space jump and screw attack that make backtracking much less of a headache, speed dash... You know, all those things traditionally associated with the Metroid franchise, great games that were plenty immersive from a 3rd person perspective.

Just giving you the flipside of a Metroid fan's point of view, one from outside the visor.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Jumping worked perhaps better than expected, but way short of "amazingly well." Examples include the ascent to the final boss's chambers, where avoiding the plagues of Metroid would undoubtedly have worked better in 3rd person, as well as the lack of a screw attack or space jump, both casualties of the 1st person viewpoint (which hurt backtracking and made it more tedious without them).

It remains to be seen how well screw attack is implemented in a 1st person view.

I guess we've all had different experiences with the game, but I never had any problems with jumping. No more than I would in any other game anyway.

The screw attack isn't first person, it moves out like the morph ball.

 

[tedtropy]

So is Prime more immersive than Super Metroid?

In terms of your ability to really interact with the world, definately, although I think Super Metroid's creepy atmosphere still holds up to this day.

 

[Teddman]

I guess we've all had different experiences with the game, but I never had any problems with jumping. No more than I would in any other game anyway.

The point is not problems with the jumping per se. It's that the jumping and platforming depth, fun factor, and degree of control is nowhere near that of any other Metroid game. It's a sacrifice and a change in gameplay that I don't think is worth the other tradeoffs of the 1st person view.

 

[Deku Tree]

I thought Prime was great in first person. I don't think that the sense of immersion and the thick atmosphere of the game could have been duplicated in third person.

 

[Mama Smurf]

I will sacrifice the immersiveness of the in-visor perspective every time for pinpoint platforming, more dynamic and extensive platforming, better jump control, space jump and screw attack that make backtracking much less of a headache, speed dash... You know, all those things traditionally associated with the Metroid franchise, great games that were plenty immersive from a 3rd person perspective.

Just giving you the flipside of a Metroid fan's point of view, one from outside the visor.

They can get around that though. In the next game there are going to be those morphball cannons and I'm hopeful they will fire you back to different areas sometimes. Almost like teleporting, but something that actually fits in with the Metroid universe.

Not that they'll necessarily do that, but I just don't think we can blame first person for backtracking taking longer.

 

[Culex]

It remains to be seen how well screw attack is implemented in a 1st person view.

Actually, going by current videos of Echoes, the screw attack is used in a 3rd person view.

 

[Buggy Loop]

It wouldnt have been anywhere near as immersive, which is imo, the best aspect of metroid prime and why i cherish it as my favorite game this gen.

So the answer is no. And thats a quick no, the camera problems that would have been related to a 3rd person metroid game would have been hellish and retro would probably have got more hate on their back than the decision to go fps, not to mention the additional time it would have taken to make it work. I prefer first person view for the majority of times, 3rd person when its in morph ball, 2.5 D when its for ball puzzles. I think retro pretty much got it spot on.

 

[Mama Smurf]

The point is not problems with the jumping per se. It's that the jumping and platforming depth, fun factor, and degree of control is nowhere near that of any other Metroid game. It's a sacrifice and a change in gameplay that I don't think is worth the other tradeoffs of the 1st person view.

I can agree with that, that Prime is less fun when jumping than in previous Metroid games that is. But I don't blame that on first person, I blame it on the switch to 3D. Whether in 3rd person or not, the platforming is never gonna be as good as it was, you're still going to have a large area which you won't be able to see until you turn and look around for it.

In fact, I can't think of a single 3D game that has done jumping as well as its 2D predecessors. Quite sad that.

 

[cvxfreak]

For medical reasons, I'd prefer it to be in third person. Whenever Samus was hit and her visor starts flashing, I could never handle looking at it. At the same time, I'm aware of how atmospheric the game is, so I'd like to keep it close to a third person view. Transforming the view point of Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 2: Echoes to some akin to RE4 would be a godsend - to me personally.

 

[Oni Link 666]

I think it should have been in 3rd person too. The game controls like a 3rd person game already. I can't think of anything that they did in first person that they couldn't do in 3rd person except maybe the cool helmet effects like the reflections and fog on the glass. Even in tight corridors you could make Samus semi transparent so she doesn't obstruct your view.

 

[IJoel]

I don't care about 1st or 3rd person. If the game is good then that is all I care about.

I wish they would've cut down the backtracking (and yes, I played the originals... it's just that it doesn't translate nearly as well in a huge world) and reduced the scanning or made it automatic. Another thing is the way they progress the story. The damn scanning of texts to progress the story sucks. Plain and simple.

 

[MattCoz]

Actually, going by current videos of Echoes, the screw attack is used in a 3rd person view.

Yeah, reading through some of these posts it seems some people haven't even seen the screw attack in Echoes, although I still think it would be better named as space jump due to that being its primary purpose.

 

[Mr Gump]

Zelda , and i find jumping around in the 3D marios much more entertaining also.

 

[Mama Smurf]

You can still attack enemies with the screw attack.

 

[jarrod]

Not that they'll necessarily do that, but I just don't think we can blame first person for backtracking taking longer.

Sure we can, 1st person demanded a more horizantal layout to the world design compared to the 2D Metroids (besides the original). With 3rd person platform precision, level design could become more balanced between horizontal and vertical.

In fact, I can't think of a single 3D game that has done jumping as well as its 2D predecessors. Quite sad that.

Mario Sunshine. It's better in fact.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Sure we can, 1st person demanded a more horizantal layout to the world design compared to the 2D Metroids (besides the original). With 3rd person platform precision, level design could become more balanced between horizontal and vertical.

You can't just say that 3rd person would make things more balanced between horizontal and vertical, there's no reason that that should be.

Mario Sunshine. It's better in fact.

I don't see how the control's better than in 2D Marios even if you can do more things.

Mario has certain advantages that Metroid wouldn't though, even if it was 3rd person. Firstly you can swing the camera round in Mario, but the control sticks are all used up in Metroid. Secondly Mario's worlds are generally nice and open, great for a camera and platforming, which would just piss off Metroid fans no end if they'd gone with that. Finally you're not having to shoot at enemies and jump at the same time in Mario, once again allowing the camera much more ease to focus on where you're jumping to.

 

[6.8]

Nah, I blame the move to 3D for the lack of verticality. Precision is lost, and jumping long pipes would be a nightmare regardless of the point of view.

 

[jarrod]

You can't just say that 3rd person would make things more balanced between horizontal and vertical, there's no reason that that should be.

The perspective shift would facilitate a design shift. Or do you think Retro would've made exactly the same game?

I don't see how the control's better than in 2D Mario's even if you can do more things.

Mario has certain advantages that Metroid wouldn't though, even if it was 3rd person. Firstly you can swing the camera round in Mario, but the control sticks are all used up in Metroid. Secondly Mario's worlds are generally nice and open, great for a camera and platforming, which would just piss off Metroid fans no end if they'd gone with that. Finally you're not having to shoot at enemies and jump at the same time in Mario, once again allowing the camera much more ease to focus on where you're jumping to.

You didn't ask for a comparison, just an example. Take it like a man.

 

[Mama Smurf]

The perspective shift would facilitate a design shift. Or do you think Retro would've made exactly the same game?

No, I think corridors etc. would have to be a lot wider for a start, but I still don't see how going 3rd person would make the game more vertical. There's nothing going on with Prime's play mechanics that could prevent that.

You didn't ask for a comparison, just an example. Take it like a man.

Ah, fair enough. I did wonder while typing it whether we were still talking about Metroid or not.

 

[Semjaza Azazel]

If you had to go from point A to point B on a horizontal line, how would going vertically make you transverse that distance any more quickly?

Speed dashing and space jumping might make that difference, but going vertically certainly would not unless areas were directly underneath one another.

 

[DrLazy]

There were camera issues when you were in ball form. Very difficult for many boss fights.

 

[StrikerObi]

Third person would have turned this into Ocarina of Time with a gun. That's not cool. Metroid and Zelda are quite different and can't really feel teh same. Plus, trying to do a 3rd person camera in the typically claustrophobic environments of Metroid would blow ass.

 

[jarrod]

No, I think corridors etc. would have to be a lot wider for a start, but I still don't see how going 3rd person would make the game more vertical. There's nothing going on with Prime's play mechanics that could prevent that.

Because a 3rd person perspective allows for more precise platforming it likely would've allowed Retro to open up the world design with more vertical elements. As is, Prime is the most horizontal Metroid by far (even moreso than the original), likely due to the first person perspective inhibiting anything but relatively simpleplatforming. Also, I'd say only really tight corrdors would've needed to be expanded for 3rd person. The majority of environments in Prime are pretty wide already actually (though I stopped around the Phazon Mines, so I can't really say after that).

Besides which, if Nintendo/Retro decided on a traditional fps perspective why insist on keeping 3rd person controls? Mechanics wise Prime as delivered could be done as is in 3rd person...

 

[jarrod]

If you had to go from point A to point B on a horizontal line, how would going vertically make you transverse that distance any more quickly?

Speed dashing and space jumping might make that difference, but going vertically certainly would not unless areas were directly underneath one another.

I think the idea is that it would break up the monotony mainly that most felt in Prime. The old Metroids had just as much backtracking, but environments were far more varied design wise.

 

[jarrod]

Third person would have turned this into Ocarina of Time with a gun.

So critical and commercial response would've been better then?

 

[Kobun Heat]

I heard the reason they ended up going first person was on Nintendo's suggestion, because it is easier to debug a first-person game. If it was third person, it might not even be out yet.

 

[Semjaza Azazel]

I suppose that can be argued. I really didn't feel much of a problem with it, but I can understand why others do.

Really, it just comes down to limitations. Retro's key members seemingly mostly were responsible for various FPS games. Their strengths lended them to that sort of design.

Plus, the fact that there are camera issues with the morphball leads me to believe that there would be even worse ones if the whole game was third person. Certainly it would be possible, but would it work as well? I severely doubt it, especially given the already mentioned tight corridors. Most other third person action games have corridors that are generally at least twice as wide in all directions. I would imagine it'd be a pain to design without some sort of set camera system like Eternal Darkness's, and then it just wouldn't be the same at all.

In any case, I like the shift personally. Certainly the original had flaws, but considering all that Retro had against them in literally every way, I think they did a very commendable job. I wouldn't want to play a 3rd person fully 3D Metroid until I could be assured the camera would be flawless. I can't see that happening on current systems. It'd take them forever to develop that system and work out the bugs just with that.

 

[Red Dolphin]

I personally think Nintendo and Retro will go back to the 3rd person perspective with the next Metroid game on Revolution. They've stated before that the move to 1st person doesn't mean the series will stay in that view. Echoes is implementing even more 3rd person elements and I'm sure by the time they come to do a Metroid for Revolution, the camera issues should have been mostly resolved from their experience with the 3rd person elements in the GameCube Metroid titles.

Maybe Metroid could have Jet Force Gemini type controls?

 

[Mama Smurf]

Because a 3rd person perspective allows for more precise platforming it likely would've allowed Retro to open up the world design with more vertical elements. As is, Prime is the most horizontal Metroid by far (even moreso than the original), likely due to the first person perspective inhibiting anything but relatively simpleplatforming. Also, I'd say only really tight corrdors would've needed to be expanded for 3rd person. The majority of environments in Prime are pretty wide already actually (though I stopped around the Phazon Mines, so I can't really say after that).

You can say the platforming is simplistic, but that would hardly stop Retro from being able to build vertical levels. You just couldn't have the complicated jumping you did in the 2D games (not that they were ever THAT complicated), but they could still be vertical. Retro clearly just decided against it, first person or not.

There were lots of corridors which Samus would have basically filled from 3rd person. They'd have had to at the very least made them taller, probably wider too. How else could you see the enemies beyond her to lock onto?

Besides which, if Nintendo/Retro decided on a traditional fps perspective why insist on keeping 3rd person controls? Mechanics wise Prime as delivered could be done as is in 3rd person...

Well, Nintendo's reasoning is that they tried 3rd person and it didn't work because of camera issues, but I guess they wanted to keep the other things like lock on when moving to first person.

 

[deadhorse32]

The game is perfect at the 1st person.

The 1st person allow better immersion
The 1st person allow better exploration/view in tight space ( free look at each time without samus model in the middle of the screen )
The ball form is mandatory only for tube and 2d zone and doesn't work for exploration ( you can move the camera IIRC )

The lack of vertical jump is due to the 3D and tight space than the POV.


Sorry Dragona

edit : and the original metroid creator was working on a third person metroid at the same time than Retro was working on Prime. Maybe you should ask nintendo why they scraped it ?